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[Citadels] Changing NPC taxes

First post
Author
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#41 - 2016-03-03 15:25:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
ed: Page wrap, this was re: clone costs:

But he can afford it if he never risks them and hell this already happens today. Furthermore we saw all the good that came of lifting the standings limits on clones and yet now we're putting a big stick on using them.

And for why? To tick a box? Come now, plenty ways to make citadels more attractive which involve a lot less stick and some more carrot.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#42 - 2016-03-03 15:27:54 UTC
I'm pretty sure the JC fee is for installing the clone, whether you actually hit install or just jump out to another clone for the first time, which leaves a clone behind. Not upon every jump. If it were every jump that would be kinda silly and definitely a detractor to new player participation.

Moving the mineral taxes to an isk tax seems fine. But that will result in a large influx of minerals into the markets, possibly having a downward effect on mineral prices, which would then push the isk taxes down. Not sure how much of an effect it will be.

The increase in NPC station taxes does a couple of interesting things besides make citadels more competitive. It will make standings more important for players that do not wish to take the risk of having their things sold from a citadel. I like his dynamic. More risk, more reward.

Compression merging with Reprocessing, both in citadels. Well, as much as I was hoping to see people put up compression POSes in mining systems and make money themselves rather than let the capital producers bypass them, I guess goons were right on that one. Whodda thunk miners were so lazy they would throw away an extra few percent on their ore?

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#43 - 2016-03-03 15:29:18 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
I'm pretty sure the JC fee is for installing the clone, whether you actually hit install or just jump out to another clone for the first time, which leaves a clone behind. Not upon every jump. If it were every jump that would be kinda silly and definitely a detractor to new player participation.


No as confirmed on the official thread reddit, it is 5m per jump.
Hendrink Collie
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2016-03-03 15:29:42 UTC
Grookshank wrote:
Querns wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Querns wrote:
As usual, the reward will go to those willing to take the risk.



pretty sure having items stuck in the asset recovery system, which iirc isn't instant, are going to be rewarding you with nothing but tied up isk.

The reduction of those 5% fees is the reward.

You can argue all you want, but no one will use your goon citadel in Jita as main trading hub.


lol ding ding ding, real motive found. grr gons

I'd use a citadel in high-sec for a trade-hub to squeeze out those extra 3 - 4%. In the end, it just depends on how much risk you are willing to take.
Germaq
No Clams
#45 - 2016-03-03 15:31:31 UTC
5m everytime you want to jump clone


This discourages PVP (by adding cost to jump from an implanted lowsec clone to a clean null clone, or increasing the jump cost from a 'staging' system to a 'safer' system), increases the cost of moving cyno alts around (capital movement is already a bit burdensome, ok?), makes market trading more expensive and defeats low scale arbitage trade (hub clones), and I know you want to do away with training clones but it adds an additional cost to use training clones. Bad change. Didn't you just remove clone costs to encourage PVP?

No contracts
What? Why stage somewhere if you can't easily outfit your alliance with ships?
Scotsman Howard
S0utherN Comfort
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#46 - 2016-03-03 15:31:35 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:


Asset recovery to the same system is free.


Fair enough (I forgot this point), but there is still the issue of time here. I thought there was at least a delay for the recovery.

However, even if it is free, you are still asking for a huge time commitment from players here which adds no value to the game.

Scenerio:

Let us assume all players willingly go from the Jita market to an xl citadel to avoid the taxes.:

Fact: It will be destroyed just for the laughs as this is Eve.

Now, let's assume that players get there stuff back immediately AND there is already another citadel in the same system for them to move it all (I think you can choose to have it moved automatically to another citadel, so we will go with that).

You are then requiring players to spend thousands of hours relisting every order they had up.


My reasoning behind why this will not work:

Listen to have many people in null sec complain when they have to move one region over and relist their contracts (let alone their market orders).

Now you expect people in high sec to be willing to do that or even risk that when they have thousands of orders?
Rek Seven
Galactic Deep Space Industries
Warped Intentions
#47 - 2016-03-03 15:32:38 UTC
Why isn't the security status of a system being considered?

For the transaction taxes, it should be lower in low sec and non existent in wormholes and null sec.
Grookshank
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2016-03-03 15:33:50 UTC
Hendrink Collie wrote:
Grookshank wrote:
Querns wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Querns wrote:
As usual, the reward will go to those willing to take the risk.



pretty sure having items stuck in the asset recovery system, which iirc isn't instant, are going to be rewarding you with nothing but tied up isk.

The reduction of those 5% fees is the reward.

You can argue all you want, but no one will use your goon citadel in Jita as main trading hub.


lol ding ding ding, real motive found. grr gons

I'd use a citadel in high-sec for a trade-hub to squeeze out those extra 3 - 4%. In the end, it just depends on how much risk you are willing to take.

It is grr everyone that can deny you access to stuff in a citadel.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#49 - 2016-03-03 15:34:22 UTC
Grookshank wrote:
Querns wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Querns wrote:
As usual, the reward will go to those willing to take the risk.



pretty sure having items stuck in the asset recovery system, which iirc isn't instant, are going to be rewarding you with nothing but tied up isk.

The reduction of those 5% fees is the reward.

You can argue all you want, but no one will use your goon citadel in Jita as main trading hub.

We actually tried to run a highsec empire back when highsec POCOs were first a thing, but it failed spectacularly. It's very unlikely that we'd try this again.

If we did, it would be closer to our space, like in Torrinos, where we could more effectively defend it.

If you don't want to use citadels for trading, that's fine. They are indeed ripe with potential risk and uncertainty. Folks like me, however, will gladly use player-owned citadels for trading to get that sweet, sweet fee reduction. I've bought entire characters for their standings to reduce the fees currently in place by a much smaller amount.

Also, you can't drop a citadel in Jita.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Niko Zino
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2016-03-03 15:34:43 UTC
Querns wrote:

This is not a very good place to use the "appeal to newbies" tactic. Jump clones, in this scenario, are being used to protect implants. A set of +3s costs a person 40-50m isk simply to plug in. If they can swing +3s, they can probably swing a jump clone once in a while to protect those +3s. A newbie who legitimately is too poor to afford a 5m jump clone fee also can't afford the implants he'd be using the service to protect in the first place.


It's not the price of the single clone per se, but the prospect of having a non-negligible cost of swapping back and forth when you are new and want to try a lot of different things out before you settle for being a F1 monkey.

CAS, the NPC Corp that Does Stuff™

Dave Stark
#51 - 2016-03-03 15:34:47 UTC
Hendrink Collie wrote:
Grookshank wrote:
Querns wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Querns wrote:
As usual, the reward will go to those willing to take the risk.



pretty sure having items stuck in the asset recovery system, which iirc isn't instant, are going to be rewarding you with nothing but tied up isk.

The reduction of those 5% fees is the reward.

You can argue all you want, but no one will use your goon citadel in Jita as main trading hub.


lol ding ding ding, real motive found. grr gons

I'd use a citadel in high-sec for a trade-hub to squeeze out those extra 3 - 4%. In the end, it just depends on how much risk you are willing to take.


you do realise though, that if the owner of that citadel can't defend it - all of your assets are tied up for 5 days? (i think asset recovery takes 5 days).

that's not an insignificant length of time. is 5 days of time really going to be worth a 4% reduction in taxes?
Hendrink Collie
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2016-03-03 15:36:52 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
that's not an insignificant length of time. is 5 days of time really going to be worth a 4% reduction in taxes?


If you sell enough volume, yes, yes it is.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#53 - 2016-03-03 15:36:59 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Why isn't the security status of a system being considered?

For the transaction taxes, it should be lower in low sec and non existent in wormholes and null sec.

If this was the case, everyone who wanted to sell stuff in 0.0 would just set up a market in NPC 0.0, where the taxes were low-to-zero and there was no chance of disruption via explosion or ACL lockout.

NPC stations in 0.0/lowsec need these fees too.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Scotsman Howard
S0utherN Comfort
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#54 - 2016-03-03 15:38:26 UTC
Grookshank wrote:
Querns wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Querns wrote:
As usual, the reward will go to those willing to take the risk.



pretty sure having items stuck in the asset recovery system, which iirc isn't instant, are going to be rewarding you with nothing but tied up isk.

The reduction of those 5% fees is the reward.

You can argue all you want, but no one will use your goon citadel in Jita as main trading hub.


Considering they are one of the few groups in the game that could actually defend the stupid thing, people will use it.

Right now, the only way I can see any sort of citadel in high sec would be if Cribba was the ONLY one who could have access to docking rights, anchoring rights, etc. AND had some agreement with the other major groups in the game to not destroy the thing every other week.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#55 - 2016-03-03 15:38:44 UTC
Grookshank wrote:
Querns wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Querns wrote:
As usual, the reward will go to those willing to take the risk.



pretty sure having items stuck in the asset recovery system, which iirc isn't instant, are going to be rewarding you with nothing but tied up isk.

The reduction of those 5% fees is the reward.

You can argue all you want, but no one will use your goon citadel in Jita as main trading hub.


Quoting this for future reference, assuming goons do put up an XL in Jita to compete.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Dave Stark
#56 - 2016-03-03 15:40:22 UTC
Scotsman Howard wrote:
Considering they are one of the few groups in the game that could actually defend the stupid thing, people will use it.


their attempt at holding pocos failed - i wouldn't put much faith in their ability to defend a citadel.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#57 - 2016-03-03 15:41:17 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Grookshank wrote:
Querns wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Querns wrote:
As usual, the reward will go to those willing to take the risk.



pretty sure having items stuck in the asset recovery system, which iirc isn't instant, are going to be rewarding you with nothing but tied up isk.

The reduction of those 5% fees is the reward.

You can argue all you want, but no one will use your goon citadel in Jita as main trading hub.


Quoting this for future reference, assuming goons do put up an XL in Jita to compete.

You can't erect citadels in Jita.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

MachineOfLovingGrace
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#58 - 2016-03-03 15:41:41 UTC
While I like the idea of more player control about eve, this is moving too far into the regions where other players can effectively control how and where I play eve for my taste. Eve is already a game that is at times as tedious and overcomplicated as it's fun and engaging. The market and jumpclone changes will only make this worse, even more so if you are a casual player without some big alliance logistic backbone. Every change that makes actual gameplay require more logistic/clicks/hassle in general will make casual scrubs like me pause and think if hitting "find game" in CS:GO isn't the better use of my time. Don't lose the "small guy" from focus when you plan some big poweblock endgame.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#59 - 2016-03-03 15:47:10 UTC
Germaq wrote:
5m everytime you want to jump clone


This discourages PVP (by adding cost to jump from an implanted lowsec clone to a clean null clone, or increasing the jump cost from a 'staging' system to a 'safer' system), increases the cost of moving cyno alts around (capital movement is already a bit burdensome, ok?), makes market trading more expensive and defeats low scale arbitage trade (hub clones), and I know you want to do away with training clones but it adds an additional cost to use training clones. Bad change. Didn't you just remove clone costs to encourage PVP?

No contracts
What? Why stage somewhere if you can't easily outfit your alliance with ships?



You do realize JC fees are tied to NPC stations only, if you have a citadel, the owner sets the fee
Sim Cognito
Obani Gemini Corporation
#60 - 2016-03-03 15:48:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Sim Cognito
NPC taxes are an essential ISK sink and an immersion factor. We have too many ISK faucets. The changes are extremely positive.


Adjusting Contract fees and Jump Clone fees is also long overdue and I welcome it.

Finally, compression and reprocessing shouldn't be instant, but that's just me I guess.