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[Citadels] Changing NPC taxes

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epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#501 - 2016-03-08 13:26:05 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Putting things in perspective, If one considers whether we can be trained, Using an animal analogy, stop thinking of us as Dogs that can be trained, WE ARE NOT.

Stubborn mules and goats, are getting there, but the reality, is we are more like cats.

Any cat owner will tell you just how badly it goes if you try to force or punish a cat to do something it doesn't like.

The best you can hope for is a cold war between you, where you know how much it dislikes it and you, and the most likely result, If the cat cannot eventually teach you to respect it , is that it just gives up on you and moves down the road.

It does not matter if you believe it is a good thing, we need to be encouraged to have a look and try.
Demanding we adapt, because someone simply insists that we must accept, just does not work!

And after all the battles, and conflict, of the last few years, one would hope that you had realised this by now, so many good features, that really were good ideas, just ended up damaging the relationship, because someone still thinks we can be trained like a Dog.

Do you now realise, with so many excellent game changes, that should have been excitedly adopted, exactly how this attitude turned what could have been stunning successes, into unexpected failiures?

We desperately want to come on the journey, follow the excellent roadmap, travel forwards together, towards a new and better future for eve.

But not on a leash!

This is not a game that attracts those, who just do what they are told, and that is what makes it unique.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Indahmawar Fazmarai
#502 - 2016-03-08 14:36:10 UTC
Why would someone do something obviously damaging?

a) ignorance. I don't think that CCP developers and game designers don't know their trade... at least not so badly. P
b) neglect. They know it's bad, but they don't care. May be a possibility, but not likely for a Prime Feature.
c) superior knowledge. Could be. If they're right, well, it's their trade. If they're wrong, then that's arrogance, and CCP is known to be arrogant on occasions.
d) despair. They know that it's wrong but can't help it and so carry on and hope for the best. My bets are on this. The Rubicon Plan is like an anti-Incarna: perfectly executed but a wrong idea from the start.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#503 - 2016-03-08 14:39:43 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Why would someone do something obviously damaging?

a) ignorance. I don't think that CCP developers and game designers don't know their trade... at least not so badly. P
b) neglect. They know it's bad, but they don't care. May be a possibility, but not likely for a Prime Feature.
c) superior knowledge. Could be. If they're right, well, it's their trade. If they're wrong, then that's arrogance, and CCP is known to be arrogant on occasions.
d) despair. They know that it's wrong but can't help it and so carry on and hope for the best. My bets are on this. The Rubicon Plan is like an anti-Incarna: perfectly executed but a wrong idea from the start.



Honestly, I just bet there is a manager somewhere, originally from another game, who the Devs just have to obey.

If they can just accept, we are not like other games players, and to use my example Cats, not Dogs in personality, then they can save themselves a truckload of unnecessary grief for everyone.

As players, we want better features, we want all the things that sound so great in the roadmap! Thinking we can, and need to be forced, into using them is just the opposite of what will work.

Ever tried to take a Cat for a walk on a leash? Doesn't end well......
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-3lppfJv8IQ

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-9DTgauo8EU

Tried as a Kid, an hour later, Just when I thought the cat had forgotten, I nearly lost my arm........

EVE players no forcing involved, now isn't that more fun? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_nPNt2paNdc

CCP see the difference?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Dominous Nolen
Anomalous Existence
Initiative Mercenaries
#504 - 2016-03-08 17:42:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Dominous Nolen
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

Expensive Jump clone tax per Jump


Editing to be less clusterFcuky:

How about no to the 5mill per jump, why not 1 million or so? You could have made a much lower amount of isk per attempt if you are seriously considering this change.. Not everyone is going to be able to deploy one these new structures even though we all know its a major step on the road map to where-ever this game is going next.

The 5 million install fee... sure I get that.. you took away the faction grind (Thanks for that by the way) so we can install anywhere with out spending hours/days grinding to install.

So you're going to tax anyone that can't afford their own station services. What purpose did this change serve in the long term vision? Just curious... Obviously your end goal is to get everyone that can afford it into citadels, but what else?

This going to impact the new player base that can barely afford to keep themselves in ships or players who don't grind alot of isk per month. Some casual players may only long in once/twice a week and only pay for the sub and not toss additional resources in by cashing in plex or be sitting on large amounts of isk from decent mission payouts. So it will impact that player more than most.

Granted not a lot of the newer player base may even be aware of the functionality, but the hit the wallet for them might be a little much when they inevitably do.

I urge the team to rethink the amounts for this one, please.

@dominousnolen

"Fly dangerously, Fly safe, Fly whatever, just keep Flying." - Lee Blackwood

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#505 - 2016-03-08 18:13:12 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Dominous Nolen wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

Expensive Jump clone tax/ Jump nonsense


How about no to the 5mill per jump. You could have made a much lower amount of isk per attempt if you are seriously considering this change.. You do realize not everyone is going to be able to deploy one these new structures right? So you're going to tax anyone that can't afford their own station services for what purpose then?

Straight up highway robbery (jump clone robbery) per attempt if you ask me.

This going to screw over a new player base that can barely afford to keep themselves in ships or players who don't grind alot of isk per month.

Seriously, rethink this one folks


Yes, this is a wonderful example of how to turn a wonderful feature for the playerbase, into turning the playerbase against you, when we were so much behind you and looking forward to it?

CCP, Why? Just why?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#506 - 2016-03-08 18:58:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Tipa Riot
Let's summarize the two most important (proposed) features of Citadels being a very strong incentive without any penalties to others involved:

- end to station games, perfectly safe dock/undock
- unlimited jump clones, and being able to switch in station without cooldown

Why do you think this is not enough? People will pay for that service in Citadels, just charge clone swap and docking fees, and you have recouped your costs in no time.

Also keep a base tax for trading plus a tax factor of for example max. 20%, which is used for NPC stations, the owner can charge a lower value. This requires to change the skills for broker fees and taxes to influence only the tax factor, reducing the tax factor for NPCs to 10% minimum for example. Numbers can be tweaked.

I'm my own NPC alt.

Dominous Nolen
Anomalous Existence
Initiative Mercenaries
#507 - 2016-03-08 19:08:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Dominous Nolen
Redacted

@dominousnolen

"Fly dangerously, Fly safe, Fly whatever, just keep Flying." - Lee Blackwood

Lugh Crow-Slave
#508 - 2016-03-08 19:22:37 UTC
Dominous Nolen wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
Let's summarize the two most important (proposed) features of Citadels being a very strong incentive without any penalties to others involved:

- end to station games, perfectly safe dock/undock
- unlimited jump clones, and being able to switch in station without cooldown

Why do you think this is not enough?



Excellent idea..

CCP here's a thought... Give us something for the fact you're going to tax us for the NPC stations. I like the reduction of the cool down timer on JC'ing myself or removing it entirely.

if no removal of the cooldown is off the options menu then how about this?:

If you jump from/to an NPC station how about we take that time from 24hrs (with low infomorph skills) to something like 6 to 12 hours? Also make it apply the bonus to reduction of the time per/ infomorph level? Fair trade, no?


They are giving you something.
A way to reduce your tax and the ability to instantly swap your clone.

For all the carrot and not the stick to people to use a feature.

Should the Ishtars and drakes been left where they were and just had everything else buffed around them? Sometimes the best option when balancing is a nerf and a system that hasn't been balanced since 03 needed a look at anyway
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#509 - 2016-03-08 19:38:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

No something built and ruin by players should be better than any npc alternative.

And the nerfs to npc stations is not a new thing nor is it unwarranted. Just last year they nerfed npc stations harder than player built refining options in order to widen the gap between the two

Also there are plenty of areas particularly in hs that could manage losing their stations if it's something ccp desired

Actually NPC stations were not nerfed.
CCP's changes to numbers left NPC stations actually where they were, assuming you had full skills, they just moved player outposts & POS to better than NPC stations. Unfortunately the way they did this was badly flawed, in that POS should have been the best as the highest risk option, and the at the time only one with a constant cost. And by giving a refining advantage to the null bloc's as a result of their lobbying they made it so shipping highsec ore to null was cost effective and made more minerals.

And they are doing this again in a double fashion. They are giving Null Citadels more refining power yet again, and they are giving control of it all to the Null Blocs, since the current citadel defences are not sufficient to allow a smaller group to fight off a bigger group in a citadel defence in high sec. Despite the fact that the investment is basically identical with Citadels no matter where you place them, and Null is likely to get lower Fuel costs with their Sov to everything meaning their ongoing costs for the same Citadel are lower.

This is the issue, and why numbers have not looked as good, and continue to slowly decline as the effects of the changes filter slowly through the system.
NPC stations being removed to make each individual station more relevant is a totally different matter, and one that can be done independently of all the rest of this.

N.B. I am not against Null being lucrative, but it should be lucrative in raw materials (rat bounties being a raw material effectively) rather than the ability to process the raw materials (should be equal though, not 40% lower like it used to be before the change), and not get such a significant advantage over high sec Citadels where the investment is the same.
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#510 - 2016-03-08 19:51:51 UTC
Dominous Nolen wrote:
CCP here's a thought... Give us something for the fact you're going to tax us for the NPC stations.


You get perfect safety. Perfect safety is OP and with minimal cost currently. This is being corrected.
NPC stations will have perfect safety with increased cost
Citadels will have risk with reduced costs

It isn't that complicated
Dominous Nolen
Anomalous Existence
Initiative Mercenaries
#511 - 2016-03-08 20:13:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Dominous Nolen
Obil Que wrote:


You get perfect safety. Perfect safety is OP and with minimal cost currently. This is being corrected.
NPC stations will have perfect safety with increased cost
Citadels will have risk with reduced costs

It isn't that complicated


For NPC stations I think 5 million install + 5 million service fee per jump is a little on the high side. If they made the initial install fee 5 million plus a 1 Million jump cost, okay a little more reasonable.

Edit:

The one side effect, and I don't recall if this was an unintended change that just made it way to a permanent change was the loss of faction standing requirements for clone installation.

Given the fact we've lost the requirement to have to grind up standings to install a clone I can live with paying for a jump clone attempt.

Hindsight on my initial thoughs... either way. Some people such as myself might see the 5 million as a small impact to their total wallet for convenience sake, but there are obviously pluses and minuses to this change for the entire player base.

You're right in regard to the perfect security for now, if Soundwave's old vision of destructible everything came true then it would be another matter.

@dominousnolen

"Fly dangerously, Fly safe, Fly whatever, just keep Flying." - Lee Blackwood

Lugh Crow-Slave
#512 - 2016-03-08 20:23:56 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

No something built and ruin by players should be better than any npc alternative.

And the nerfs to npc stations is not a new thing nor is it unwarranted. Just last year they nerfed npc stations harder than player built refining options in order to widen the gap between the two

Also there are plenty of areas particularly in hs that could manage losing their stations if it's something ccp desired

Actually NPC stations were not nerfed.
CCP's changes to numbers left NPC stations actually where they were, assuming you had full skills, they just moved player outposts & POS to better than NPC stations. Unfortunately the way they did this was badly flawed, in that POS should have been the best as the highest risk option, and the at the time only one with a constant cost. And by giving a refining advantage to the null bloc's as a result of their lobbying they made it so shipping highsec ore to null was cost effective and made more minerals.

And they are doing this again in a double fashion. They are giving Null Citadels more refining power yet again, and they are giving control of it all to the Null Blocs, since the current citadel defences are not sufficient to allow a smaller group to fight off a bigger group in a citadel defence in high sec. Despite the fact that the investment is basically identical with Citadels no matter where you place them, and Null is likely to get lower Fuel costs with their Sov to everything meaning their ongoing costs for the same Citadel are lower.

This is the issue, and why numbers have not looked as good, and continue to slowly decline as the effects of the changes filter slowly through the system.
NPC stations being removed to make each individual station more relevant is a totally different matter, and one that can be done independently of all the rest of this.

N.B. I am not against Null being lucrative, but it should be lucrative in raw materials (rat bounties being a raw material effectively) rather than the ability to process the raw materials (should be equal though, not 40% lower like it used to be before the change), and not get such a significant advantage over high sec Citadels where the investment is the same.


Npc stations were not left where they were at not even close you used to be able to get 100% refine woth level 3 skills
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#513 - 2016-03-08 20:29:30 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

Npc stations were not left where they were at not even close you used to be able to get 100% refine woth level 3 skills

They buffed the amount that refined per mineral so that someone with perfect skills got the same as the old 100%. So they weren't nerfed unless you had been lazy with your skills. It is still possible to get the same amount of minerals in an NPC station as it was before.
They just had to drop the theoretical percent to below 100% to allow the player built structures to refine better than the NPC structures, but it was a cosmetic change to the percent number, not an actual nerf.
Corwyn Gorebane
Navis Armis Pecuniis
Already Replaced.
#514 - 2016-03-08 23:36:08 UTC
Ugh ..... down goes another fun game, someday, maybe the greed will go away till then. Guess we pay pay pay!
GetSirrus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#515 - 2016-03-09 01:24:48 UTC
So 5mil that is all the noise?

Step back for a moment, and think if you still had to grind for the 8 plus standing and earn it. Weigh up the time vs cost value for all that time, and then re-visit that 5mil cost. (and that plus eight only applies in one faction of space for installing or replacing clones). Which would you prefer?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#516 - 2016-03-09 01:27:16 UTC
GetSirrus wrote:
So 5mil that is all the noise?

Step back for a moment, and think if you still had to grind for the 8 plus standing and earn it. Weigh up the time vs cost value for all that time, and then re-visit that 5mil cost. (and that plus eight only applies in one faction of space for installing or replacing clones). Which would you prefer?

5 Mil every single time you press that jump clone button vs a single standings grind.... I'll take the grind thanks.
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#517 - 2016-03-09 03:51:34 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
GetSirrus wrote:
So 5mil that is all the noise?

Step back for a moment, and think if you still had to grind for the 8 plus standing and earn it. Weigh up the time vs cost value for all that time, and then re-visit that 5mil cost. (and that plus eight only applies in one faction of space for installing or replacing clones). Which would you prefer?

5 Mil every single time you press that jump clone button vs a single standings grind.... I'll take the grind thanks.

Exactly. You only have to grind once, and many of us already did. I paid my dues already, I'm not paying every time I want to access more content.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#518 - 2016-03-09 03:55:01 UTC
Khan Wrenth wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
GetSirrus wrote:
So 5mil that is all the noise?

Step back for a moment, and think if you still had to grind for the 8 plus standing and earn it. Weigh up the time vs cost value for all that time, and then re-visit that 5mil cost. (and that plus eight only applies in one faction of space for installing or replacing clones). Which would you prefer?

5 Mil every single time you press that jump clone button vs a single standings grind.... I'll take the grind thanks.

Exactly. You only have to grind once, and many of us already did. I paid my dues already, I'm not paying every time I want to access more content.


What would your opinion be of a reduction in jump clone costs in proportion to the old jump clone standings requirements. So installing a jump cloning or jumping out of a station where you have 8.0 would result in a 0 isk cost, while jumping from a station where you have 0 standings would be 5 mil isk, and a sliding scale between?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#519 - 2016-03-09 03:59:40 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Khan Wrenth wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
GetSirrus wrote:
So 5mil that is all the noise?

Step back for a moment, and think if you still had to grind for the 8 plus standing and earn it. Weigh up the time vs cost value for all that time, and then re-visit that 5mil cost. (and that plus eight only applies in one faction of space for installing or replacing clones). Which would you prefer?

5 Mil every single time you press that jump clone button vs a single standings grind.... I'll take the grind thanks.

Exactly. You only have to grind once, and many of us already did. I paid my dues already, I'm not paying every time I want to access more content.


What would your opinion be of a reduction in jump clone costs in proportion to the old jump clone standings requirements. So installing a jump cloning or jumping out of a station where you have 8.0 would result in a 0 isk cost, while jumping from a station where you have 0 standings would be 5 mil isk, and a sliding scale between?


probably be a good middle ground
Terraj Oknatis
xX-Crusader-Xx
Tactical Narcotics Team
#520 - 2016-03-09 04:47:57 UTC
Honestly the tax changes proposed may make fighting over high sec space more important than fighting over null sec. The biggest complaint I hear from players in the Imperium is in dealing with sov, and that holding sov means nothing. What can you do as a sov alliance when you hold sov? The answer is that you have better ratting. That is it. CCP has nerfed the moons to the point where there is no real sov fighting taking place. However, I can now imagine strat ops going to defend a major xl market citadel in HS if that citadel's passive incomes stream met or exceeded passive income streams which are reaped from moons. It would be quite interesting to see this sort of conflict. What Im trying to say is, that this could, in the long term, create content. However there is a huge BUT. The BUT is how do we get to that desired point in space time? I am now putting on my lobbyist hat. I would take CCP Ytterbium golfing except there are no good golfing resorts on Jita IV IV.

This abrupt 5% hit to station trading is far to harsh. It would be much better to make it a small increase, and creep it up as citadel use becomes more and more mainstream. The current course of action is going to **** off yet another section of the player base, that being the station traders who did nothing to deserve it.

When Delonewolf does his eve talk about the market every week he will now have to consider a 5% tax for station trading. Now he will say, well there is a 10% margin in this market but that is no longer impressive. You would realistically have to start off with at least a 15% margin for each trade to account for the tax. I have been watching D Wolf's show for quite some time and I must confess he rarely ever see a 15%+ margin. So therefore station traders are going to wake up and instantly find that there is no good reason why they should log on. Station trading is a part of the game in which people enjoy, and apparently it is not even safe from the nerf bat.

The other player base this is going to hurt is new players. A big question I have is, how are skills going to effect the tax structure? Is a 5% tax with perfect skills? What If I have zero skills in marketing: Will I have to pay 10%!?!? God forbid I DESTROYED those skills by doing skill trading, oh noes, now they are USEFUL!?!?!?!?

The ideal situation is for Jita to instantly evaporate and be replaced with a citadel offering 1.5% tax, however that is not realistic. This transition will take time, it will also fundamentally change the way we purchase goods in New Eden. Where, realistically, will you find a place where ALL of the goods are found in one place? This can only happen in a big market hub like the 5 that are in the game currently. In that regards Jita will never perish unless the station were destroyed so why make it painful to live there?

So CCP is going to tax Jita out of the market place, but Jita is an important part of the game, and one that will not die easily. This 5% tax is only going to do short term harm to station trading. In the long term, under a perfect situation, where citadels magically appear from the ether, and offer an equal selection of goods, that being all of them, and wherein the citadels remain in a stable enough position for people to develop habits of going to them, there will never be a replacement quite like it. So I ask why then put this imposing tax on goods sold there so abruptly?

There is a solution here but it is not a sudden nerf to the trade hub market place. Honestly, the five major market hubs should get an exemption from this tax increase, at least for the time being.

With those exemptions, citadels will be the main choice for business outside these zones. Citadels could take over smaller market hubs, where station trading often does not occur. This could happen in a small sub hub system like Tash-Murkon. Once people get used to the idea of trading in citadels the market hub tax can slowly creep up in line with actual citadel usage until Jita dies a slow death.

Once again I'm watching CCP thinking up a crazy theory and diving head first into a pool where the water is so murky that they cannot see through the bottom. How deep is the pool? We don't know, but I would advise that CCP brace itself for impact. We wouldn't want them smacking their head off the bottom again like they did with SOV.