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[Citadels] Changing NPC taxes

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Cheradenine-Zakalwe Amtiskaw
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#341 - 2016-03-04 23:03:39 UTC
tl:dr

Eve has a complex economy. The citadels will add another factor into that economy. The combination of raising taxes and introducing a new economic mechanism will cause economic instability that has the potential to greatly harm individual players up to medium sized alliances, while opening the door for major established power blocks to consolidate power and dominate individual markets.

These changes together will be devastating to the vast majority of Eve players and could introduce meta dynamics that would require years of balancing to fix.

Regarding the Jump Clone changes, you, CCP, have done so much in the past year to improve the quality of life for Eve players, why introduce this ham-fisted tax which will only harm your newest players and antagonize vets?

Please do not do this.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#342 - 2016-03-04 23:17:19 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Scotsman Howard wrote:
Valuv wrote:
If XL citadels are allowed in high sec, this is a good change, as it would open up huge amounts of new gameplay options.


yes just not the ones related to the player owned market that CCP see happening.

Unless the new market citadel is owned by a huge group that has the manpower to truely defend the structure from ALL of Eve, no one will use one.

If you have to either pay 5% in taxes to sell your items or 20% to get the items back should the citadel be destroyed, you are going to just pay the higher taxes and stay in an NPC station.

If we are honest, the only groups in the game that could even consider putting up an xl in high sec to function as the new "Jita Market Hub" would be Goons, NC., and/or PL. If anyone else does, the other groups will burn it to the ground because that is what Eve is.

With the tax changes, all CCP has done is ensure prices will rise across Eve.


Asset recovery to the same system is free.

Ahh so rich group builds XL Citadel for public market use, in a stationed system so asset recovery is free. That will work, Roll

Good job pricing smaller groups and solo players further into the abyss.

PS; Asset recovery is a minor consideration when the whole Citadel system is geared for only the largest groups to prosper.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#343 - 2016-03-04 23:21:21 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Scotsman Howard wrote:
Valuv wrote:
If XL citadels are allowed in high sec, this is a good change, as it would open up huge amounts of new gameplay options.


yes just not the ones related to the player owned market that CCP see happening.

Unless the new market citadel is owned by a huge group that has the manpower to truely defend the structure from ALL of Eve, no one will use one.

If you have to either pay 5% in taxes to sell your items or 20% to get the items back should the citadel be destroyed, you are going to just pay the higher taxes and stay in an NPC station.

If we are honest, the only groups in the game that could even consider putting up an xl in high sec to function as the new "Jita Market Hub" would be Goons, NC., and/or PL. If anyone else does, the other groups will burn it to the ground because that is what Eve is.

With the tax changes, all CCP has done is ensure prices will rise across Eve.


Asset recovery to the same system is free.

Ahh so rich group builds XL Citadel for public market use, in a stationed system so asset recovery is free. That will work, Roll

Good job pricing smaller groups and solo players further into the abyss.

PS; Asset recovery is a minor consideration when the whole Citadel system is geared for only the largest groups to prosper.


H2O+Na-Cl

welcome to the concept of an ISK sink high sec. EVE is real you are there. the inevitable price rise might curb isk inflation...might (probably not) but its worth a shot.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#344 - 2016-03-04 23:22:20 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Scotsman Howard wrote:
Valuv wrote:
If XL citadels are allowed in high sec, this is a good change, as it would open up huge amounts of new gameplay options.


yes just not the ones related to the player owned market that CCP see happening.

Unless the new market citadel is owned by a huge group that has the manpower to truely defend the structure from ALL of Eve, no one will use one.

If you have to either pay 5% in taxes to sell your items or 20% to get the items back should the citadel be destroyed, you are going to just pay the higher taxes and stay in an NPC station.

If we are honest, the only groups in the game that could even consider putting up an xl in high sec to function as the new "Jita Market Hub" would be Goons, NC., and/or PL. If anyone else does, the other groups will burn it to the ground because that is what Eve is.

With the tax changes, all CCP has done is ensure prices will rise across Eve.


Asset recovery to the same system is free.

Ahh so rich group builds XL Citadel for public market use, in a stationed system so asset recovery is free. That will work, Roll

Good job pricing smaller groups and solo players further into the abyss.

PS; Asset recovery is a minor consideration when the whole Citadel system is geared for only the largest groups to prosper.


you can just put up a med for asset recovery

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#345 - 2016-03-04 23:27:01 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
MuraSaki Siki wrote:
just to clarify the market tax

after the changes, when trading in citadels, transaction tax goes to system, and broker's fee goes to the owner. Is that right?


Correct. The broker's fee in Citadels isn't fixed. The owner can set 0% if he wants.

Will it be possible to set the fee by standings?

A corp or alliance may be happy to have "friends" set to zero fees in a public Citadel but not those considered as unfriendly. Or do you just disallow them use and restrict the income for those trading from your Citadel?

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Duncan McClain
Jolly Codgers
Get Off My Lawn
#346 - 2016-03-04 23:28:41 UTC
Not all will like it , but the players will adapt to the new mechanics.

Some will just give up, others will grind standings, and others will take a look at citadels and try it out and make a little more.

In any case the market will adjust.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#347 - 2016-03-04 23:29:43 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Scotsman Howard wrote:
Valuv wrote:
If XL citadels are allowed in high sec, this is a good change, as it would open up huge amounts of new gameplay options.


yes just not the ones related to the player owned market that CCP see happening.

Unless the new market citadel is owned by a huge group that has the manpower to truely defend the structure from ALL of Eve, no one will use one.

If you have to either pay 5% in taxes to sell your items or 20% to get the items back should the citadel be destroyed, you are going to just pay the higher taxes and stay in an NPC station.

If we are honest, the only groups in the game that could even consider putting up an xl in high sec to function as the new "Jita Market Hub" would be Goons, NC., and/or PL. If anyone else does, the other groups will burn it to the ground because that is what Eve is.

With the tax changes, all CCP has done is ensure prices will rise across Eve.


Asset recovery to the same system is free.

Ahh so rich group builds XL Citadel for public market use, in a stationed system so asset recovery is free. That will work, Roll

Good job pricing smaller groups and solo players further into the abyss.

PS; Asset recovery is a minor consideration when the whole Citadel system is geared for only the largest groups to prosper.


you can just put up a med for asset recovery

Seriously, a group has just spent the time and effort to blow up your market hub Citadel and you think they are just going to hang around while you spend a few bil more to build another Citadel for asset recovery?

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#348 - 2016-03-04 23:37:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Sgt Ocker wrote:

Seriously, a group has just spent the time and effort to blow up your market hub Citadel and you think they are just going to hang around while you spend a few bil more to build another Citadel for asset recovery?


If you belong to Group A, and have your stuff in group A's Citadel in a system with no other system, and it blows up, you can put up a citadel for Altcorp B and then have all the stuff delivered to that citadel free of charge.

You don't have to deliver your assets to another Citadel belonging to the same group that owned the first one. Any citadel that you can dock in works fine.

And since you can only attack a citadel when at war with the owner, dropping a 600 mil isk small citadel with an altcorp allows risk free asset recovery from any location.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#349 - 2016-03-04 23:37:52 UTC
Querns wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:

dunno, nobody will leave jita to find out.

between having docking rights revoked, taxes changed on a whim, the citadel itself likely to get wardecced by everyone and it's dog as soon as it's anchored...

6% tax seems pretty trivial to avoid all that hassle.

As usual, the reward will go to those willing to take the risk.

No - The reward will go to those with the most isk already.

Anyone else who attempts to "take the risk" will simply be removed by the power groups. (Or pay them rent as is the most common safety measure in eve today)

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#350 - 2016-03-04 23:45:15 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:

Seriously, a group has just spent the time and effort to blow up your market hub Citadel and you think they are just going to hang around while you spend a few bil more to build another Citadel for asset recovery?


If you belong to Group A, and have your stuff in group B's Citadel in a system with no other system, and it blows up, you can put up a citadel for Group A and then have all the stuff delivered to that citadel free of charge.

You don't have to deliver your assets to another Citadel belonging to the same group that owned the first one. Any citadel that you can dock in works fine.

And since you can only attack a citadel when at war with the owner, dropping a citadel with an altcorp allows risk free asset recovery from any location.

Ahh I see, your presuming this happens only in highsec.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#351 - 2016-03-04 23:47:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Anhenka wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:

Seriously, a group has just spent the time and effort to blow up your market hub Citadel and you think they are just going to hang around while you spend a few bil more to build another Citadel for asset recovery?


If you belong to Group A, and have your stuff in group B's Citadel in a system with no other system, and it blows up, you can put up a citadel for Group A and then have all the stuff delivered to that citadel free of charge.

You don't have to deliver your assets to another Citadel belonging to the same group that owned the first one. Any citadel that you can dock in works fine.

And since you can only attack a citadel when at war with the owner, dropping a citadel with an altcorp allows risk free asset recovery from any location.

Ahh I see, your presuming this happens only in highsec.


Not really, but since I'm used to firesaling **** anyway when my space get's taken and held by an enemy strong enough to prevent my side from reclaiming the system, and I have the backup delivery mechanic to get it out to lowsec through asset recovery, I don't see any problem at all with how it works in lowsec or nullsec.

Been playing long enough to have been kicked out of at least 7-8 regions, and each time it's simple to just firesale what I didn't get out in advance. I don't see what the problem now that "Lose a % of the cost through firesaling trapped assets" has been replaced with "Lose a % of the cost through paying for asset recovery"

I find the new way better in fact, now my enemies don't benefit from cheap sales after they evict me.
Koston Eld
Extra Galactic Expeditions
#352 - 2016-03-05 00:13:00 UTC
I really hate the idea of charging for jump clone jumping. There is already a timer in place to limit the use of it. I would be all for increasing the cost of making a new jump clone. Possibly a tiered system the more sp you have the more it costs to make a new clone? But making an isk cost for just using the service is a bad idea.

It will encourage less people to jump out of a training clone to go on a roam. People will jump less for strat ops and the whole goal of the game should be getting people out into space.

Null sec will be affected by this a lot. Incursion pilots with jump clones and ships all over will be affected. Groups like specter fleet with iOS going out from all over empire will be affected. Please rethink this a bit before implementing.
Big isk cost for each time jumping is a bit too heavy handed.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#353 - 2016-03-05 00:14:45 UTC
Koston Eld wrote:
I really hate the idea of charging for jump clone jumping. There is already a timer in place to limit the use of it. I would be all for increasing the cost of making a new jump clone. Possibly a tiered system the more sp you have the more it costs to make a new clone? But making an isk cost for just using the service is a bad idea.

It will encourage less people to jump out of a training clone to go on a roam. People will jump less for strat ops and the whole goal of the game should be getting people out into space.

Null sec will be affected by this a lot. Incursion pilots with jump clones and ships all over will be affected. Groups like specter fleet with iOS going out from all over empire will be affected. Please rethink this a bit before implementing.
Big isk cost for each time jumping is a bit too heavy handed.

except once you make a clone you have it forever

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Niko Zino
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#354 - 2016-03-05 00:33:23 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

except once you make a clone you have it forever


Till you loose it, like a ship. Except you don't have to pay an undocking fee.

CAS, the NPC Corp that Does Stuff™
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#355 - 2016-03-05 00:37:02 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Anhenka wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:

Seriously, a group has just spent the time and effort to blow up your market hub Citadel and you think they are just going to hang around while you spend a few bil more to build another Citadel for asset recovery?


If you belong to Group A, and have your stuff in group B's Citadel in a system with no other system, and it blows up, you can put up a citadel for Group A and then have all the stuff delivered to that citadel free of charge.

You don't have to deliver your assets to another Citadel belonging to the same group that owned the first one. Any citadel that you can dock in works fine.

And since you can only attack a citadel when at war with the owner, dropping a citadel with an altcorp allows risk free asset recovery from any location.

Ahh I see, your presuming this happens only in highsec.


Not really, but since I'm used to firesaling **** anyway when my space get's taken and held by an enemy strong enough to prevent my side from reclaiming the system, and I have the backup delivery mechanic to get it out to lowsec through asset recovery, I don't see any problem at all with how it works in lowsec or nullsec.

Been playing long enough to have been kicked out of at least 7-8 regions, and each time it's simple to just firesale what I didn't get out in advance. I don't see what the problem now that "Lose a % of the cost through firesaling trapped assets" has been replaced with "Lose a % of the cost through paying for asset recovery"

I find the new way better in fact, now my enemies don't benefit from cheap sales after they evict me.

Not much of a problem at all - Unless you are a trader with billions of isk in assets to recover.

Think, your a market trader, supplying ships and mods for your alliance, so 30 maybe 40 bil tied up in market orders, plus your personal assets. At least a jump freighter 7.5 bil, a few pvp ships another few bil and someone comes and blows up the citadel it is all in while your unable to get online and move everything out, "asset safety" could cost in the region of 10 bil.
Add in the non recoverable 2.5% transaction tax plus even a small brokers fee by the owners, traders are going to find things a lot less profitable which could led to much less on some markets.

The new way is by far better for the average line member but for those doing logistics for your group, it will have a large impact if things go sideways.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#356 - 2016-03-05 00:42:31 UTC
Anhenka wrote:


If you belong to Group A, and have your stuff in group A's Citadel in a system with no other system, and it blows up, you can put up a citadel for Altcorp B and then have all the stuff delivered to that citadel free of charge.

You don't have to deliver your assets to another Citadel belonging to the same group that owned the first one. Any citadel that you can dock in works fine.

And since you can only attack a citadel when at war with the owner, dropping a 600 mil isk small citadel with an altcorp allows risk free asset recovery from any location.

Takes over 24h for a Citadel to go up. Alt corp gets wardecced, they destroy the Citadel while it's still on Hull just after it goes up, they take their 200 mil in loot from the M Citadel hull and laugh.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#357 - 2016-03-05 00:53:23 UTC
Niko Zino wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

except once you make a clone you have it forever


Till you loose it, like a ship. Except you don't have to pay an undocking fee.


only way to lose it is to destroy it yourself

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lugh Crow-Slave
#358 - 2016-03-05 00:55:39 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Anhenka wrote:


If you belong to Group A, and have your stuff in group A's Citadel in a system with no other system, and it blows up, you can put up a citadel for Altcorp B and then have all the stuff delivered to that citadel free of charge.

You don't have to deliver your assets to another Citadel belonging to the same group that owned the first one. Any citadel that you can dock in works fine.

And since you can only attack a citadel when at war with the owner, dropping a 600 mil isk small citadel with an altcorp allows risk free asset recovery from any location.

Takes over 24h for a Citadel to go up. Alt corp gets wardecced, they destroy the Citadel while it's still on Hull just after it goes up, they take their 200 mil in loot from the M Citadel hull and laugh.


have one already set up sieging these things is not going to be fun so unless they are out to get you no one is going to bother and if they are out to get you well you shouldn't off pissed them off

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Niko Zino
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#359 - 2016-03-05 01:04:19 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
only way to lose it is to destroy it yourself


Undocking and getting podded works as well. You will end up in your medclone for sure, but if you undock in a clone that was in a different spot, you effectively loose a clone.

CAS, the NPC Corp that Does Stuff™
nitro oxide
Risk Breakers
SONS of BANE
#360 - 2016-03-05 01:17:42 UTC
-1 jump clone charge. I'm happy for change trying to move eve on the route to everything player owned but this just seems a step in the wrong direction. Take away the medical clone update charges then bring it back in a different format.

Instead of tax tax tax why not keep jump timers for npc stations and get rid of it for citadels?