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01-MAR-16 Singularity Mass test: New Camera feedback

First post
Author
CCP Turtlepower
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2016-03-01 16:50:08 UTC
Greetings all mass-testing spaceship pilots!

We would like to ask you all to utilize the new camera in today‘s mass test, so that we can gather some feedback on the changes we have made for the March release. Please file bug reports for any issues you encounter (press F12 in game), and leave your feedback on generally how it feels to use the camera in this thread.
Here is a list of camera features we have been working on recently:

- Tracking camera movement has been tweaked in various ways
- Camera bobbing has been tweaked to make it feel more natural
- Zoom level should persist through session changes
- Zoom movement has been tweaked and made more linear
- Chase camera functionality has been improved (press the orbit camera button twice to activate the chase cam)
- ESC Menu: Camera Speed setting has been replaced with Camera Inertia
- ESC Menu: Ship Speed Offset setting has been renamed to Center Offset and can now also toggle off the tracking camera ship offset
- Various defect and bug fixes

We would also like to ask you all to play a bit with the Camera settings in the ESC menu and give us some feedback on those. Are the defaults reasonable? Is there any setting you would like to see added?

Thanks in advance!
CCP Turtlepower // Team Psycho Sisters
moimambo
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2016-03-01 17:09:56 UTC
Please put the right click to look around then both click to zoom feature back.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#3 - 2016-03-01 17:10:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Can I get my aspirin consumption reimbursed by CCP? I yet again had a nasty pinch behind my forehead when I /moveme'd around and the warping camera was painfully lagging behind the ship and the zoom/position awfully off center. Yes, yes, I turned off dynamic view and pushed the camera spe... inertia to max to fix that problem.

You need to move the buttons around in the Hud.

For some reason, when I was on the pos beacon and in Orbit camera mode, when I moved my camera around it would spin and jerk around uncontrollably and chaotically. The chaotic jerking and spinning around improved when the tower was dead and major parts of the ships warped off the field. Moving around the camera is still laggy and jumpy.

When I click the Tactical view and have turned off the tactical overlay from a previous use of the tactical view, the overlay stays turned off and does not turn on again when I activate the tactical overlay.

Reported in EBR-69907.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Amielia Evangelon
Doomheim
#4 - 2016-03-01 17:46:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Amielia Evangelon
I do like the new camera modes, BUT i miss the target track function on the old camera. There is also an erronious problem with the UI interface centering while running dual monitors and haveing the camera and (supposedly) the UI Interface offset with the camera to one monitor. It's not working - Bug report was sent.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#5 - 2016-03-01 17:48:23 UTC
I just did the mass test. There is still one issue: When looking as close as one can to "straight down" the camera bobbing turns into a full screen rotation, which is rather annoying.

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ACH1LL35
Discharged Kinetics
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#6 - 2016-03-01 18:02:38 UTC
i really hated the camera shakes there was no way to turn that off
Tchubb
Tch. Evasion
#7 - 2016-03-01 18:15:01 UTC
New camera seems good to me. It would be good to enable rotation to the first person cam, even if its not full 360 degrees.
Raphendyr Nardieu
Avanto
Hole Control
#8 - 2016-03-01 18:17:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Raphendyr Nardieu
Zoom:

* You can get a bit stuck near your ship (or other structures) when zooming too close (maybe some minimal zoom speed)
* You can't get very far with zoom in orbit camera and not specially in tactical mode. As you can get back selecting tactical mode again, this shouldn't be a problem
* the zoom otherwise feels better than on TQ
* I would like option to turn the left+right click zoom to be inverted, but not the scroll! I think they are working differently as I expect. Doesn't matter do I have the zoom invert or not. One of the zoom ways is always wrong way around.

Settings:

* Inertia slider seems to have good range of values and default
* Inertia overall feels pretty good. Not sure why, but feels better than current TQ
* camera bobbing seems nicer for sure.
* Dynamic field of view seems (might be wrong here) better than on TQ
* Offset seems to be better working. props for that

Orbit camera:

* When starting to rate the camera from tacking, It takes at least 5 seconds for camera to get back to your ship (making "untrack" action) only at that point the game starts to take the mouse movement as rotation command. This brakes what I expect when I rapidly try to rate a camera a bit.
* I still would like to see the pan feature from old camera. Helps to look your and others killmarks and especially what weapons they have

FPS camera:

* maybe the same pan that should be with the orbit camera.
* way to manually pilot your ship with the mouse

eidt: added point to zoom
Worf McGregor
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2016-03-01 18:20:52 UTC
When tracking, why use shift c, c was preferred as before.
also, when a target is selected, & with track off, you then turn on camera tracking and it does not follow. I had to re-select the target. It defaulted to the selected target before and that again is preferred.
Can we again create a default camera position?

First Person Camera; what is it for, why do we need it? We have to look around, quickly. can't do it with 1st person!
Need to zoom far out to see the overall field, can't do that with 1st person.
I know, shift to alt-2 and zoom out- too many buttons. In a fight, fingers are flying already, mind is racing and you are dead a second later.

I would rather keep the old camera.
Raphendyr Nardieu
Avanto
Hole Control
#10 - 2016-03-01 18:25:13 UTC
Amielia Evangelon wrote:
.. BUT i miss the target track function on the old camera. ..


Right click the orbit mode button or press shift+c to enable autotracking
Raphendyr Nardieu
Avanto
Hole Control
#11 - 2016-03-01 18:27:49 UTC
Worf McGregor wrote:
First Person Camera; what is it for, why do we need it? We have to look around, quickly. can't do it with 1st person!
Need to zoom far out to see the overall field, can't do that with 1st person.
I know, shift to alt-2 and zoom out- too many buttons. In a fight, fingers are flying already, mind is racing and you are dead a second later..


No need to use it..

Any vase, I have used it to bumping moving targets. Seems to help a bit.
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#12 - 2016-03-02 12:02:00 UTC
I couldn't make the mass test but after using the new camera for a while I do have some feedback.

The new inertia system is vastly better than before. It still feels a little off, but that may just be because it's different. Removing that acceleration time at the start of camera movements is a vast improvement over the last version. It used to give me a headache even at max speed, but now it's quite usable at just a bit above default speed.

The option to remove the ship offset when tracking an object is also quite welcome. We do still need custom tracking positions, but it's a very big step in the right direction.

I haven't been able to see the default settings for the checkbox options, but Dynamic Field Of View (why is "of" capitalized?) needs to be off by default because it seems to make most people sick when it's on. As for the Inertia default, it seems a little too sluggish. A good default would be 1-2 ticks faster than it is currently.

The tactical camera seems to be working a bit better too, but it's uncomfortable how the camera rotates around its own center. The fact that the camera simply turns instead of orbiting a point also makes it hard to look at an area from another angle because the camera needs to be moved so far that the focal point is out of view before turning to look at it again.
It's also annoying that tracking an object makes the camera detach from the object it was set to look at.

There is still one big thing that makes the new camera uncomfortable compared to the old one though: The difference between the horizontal and vertical sensitivity. Adjusting the camera vertically still feels extremely slow and tedious because it requires more mouse movement for the same change in angle compared to horizontal adjustment.

Overall the new camera feels much better than it did a couple weeks ago. I look forward to to using it more.
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#13 - 2016-03-02 16:31:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
Haven't had a chance to test yet but I like what I see in that list.

Only issue I'm hoping was fixed right now that I didnt see there is the way zooming gets a little out of whack when you use tracking cam. (you start tracking and object and zoom in and out and the scale/speed is really fast. Manually moving the camera shuts off the ship offset and then the zoom starts working properly again. Thinking that simply turning off tracking camera offset will fix this but I don't know if that's actually fixing the problem or just obscuring it.(on live server ofc))

On a side note, in the CSM minutes there was mention of decoupling the visual camera from tracking (dscan) cone so that we scan things without moving what we see.... PLEAAAAASSSEEEE do NOT do this. At least not without making it optional. As mentioned repeatedly in the camera feedback thread on TQ the tracking camera isn't just about dscanning but also about situational awareness. When we click on something on overview we need the camera to shift to that object so that we can see where things are on the field in relation to one another without having to zoom way out into tactical mode. If we have to use tactical and zoom so far out we cant even see our own ships then what is even the point in all your shiny new cinematics, skins, module effects, kill marks, dirt and grime, damage effects and rendering improvements?

I think the outcry over toggled tracking cam should be a sufficient indicator that you shouldn't do things that break functionality. Decouple the camera from dscan cone and you'll basically be taking away toggled tracking again and it'll result in nothing but angry posts. I understand the idea and the thought behind it but it's just not good for functionality during normal game play.

Daemun of Khanid

Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#14 - 2016-03-02 17:21:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
Hopped on and gave it a quick test.

Camera offset during tracking camera use...+1 thank you.
Ship constantly bobbing up and down in station...-1 really annoying. I expected the "camera bobbing" to continue to disable that effect in station which I believe it does on TQ but it isn't working on the test server. It's really unnatural looking the way it just goes....^^^^^ STOP vvvvv STOP ^^^^^^ STOP vvvvv, you get the point. (The effect is much more exagerated on smaller ships. Watching my crusader bob up and down makes me feel like I'm in a roller coaster just sitting in station) Edit: I assume once the bug I'm experiencing with camera settings not working and being stuck with old camera in space is fixed it will fix this issue as well.

Otherwise the only comment/complain I have is that when using tracking camera it moves from target to target too slowly. One of the things I do like about the new camera on TQ is how fast the tracking camera shifts targets. Just sitting outside station and pointing the camera at things I feel like "....come on... you can do it....MOVE ALREADY" (Edit: This seems to be because I've gotten accustomed to the new camera on TQ and now I'm stuck with old camera when in space on test server)

ummmm I think I just noticed why it seems weird and perhaps why the bobbing in station isn't working. I noticed that the "inertia" setting didn't seem to be doing anything so I turned offset on ... nothing happened. Tried turning all the other options on and off... no effect. The option for try the new camera is removed and I seem to be stuck using the old camera in space and the new camera in station.... sooooo..... kinda broke.

(Turning camera bobbing on and off in station does nothing to stop the ship bobbing up and down btw)

Also this testing is done on 2 different client logins. Both clients experiencing the same thing.

Edit: Just to confirm this. It definitely is the old camera I'm stuck with in space. All the new buttons and controls are unavailable.

Edit: Bug report submitted along with screen shot showing the old camera controls on the UI.

Daemun of Khanid

Manfred Mann
Aurora.
The Initiative.
#15 - 2016-03-02 19:13:06 UTC
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Hopped on and gave it a quick test.

Camera offset during tracking camera use...+1 thank you.
Ship constantly bobbing up and down in station...-1 really annoying. I expected the "camera bobbing" to continue to disable that effect in station which I believe it does on TQ but it isn't working on the test server. It's really unnatural looking the way it just goes....^^^^^ STOP vvvvv STOP ^^^^^^ STOP vvvvv, you get the point. (The effect is much more exagerated on smaller ships. Watching my crusader bob up and down makes me feel like I'm in a roller coaster just sitting in station) Edit: I assume once the bug I'm experiencing with camera settings not working and being stuck with old camera in space is fixed it will fix this issue as well.

Otherwise the only comment/complain I have is that when using tracking camera it moves from target to target too slowly. One of the things I do like about the new camera on TQ is how fast the tracking camera shifts targets. Just sitting outside station and pointing the camera at things I feel like "....come on... you can do it....MOVE ALREADY" (Edit: This seems to be because I've gotten accustomed to the new camera on TQ and now I'm stuck with old camera when in space on test server)

ummmm I think I just noticed why it seems weird and perhaps why the bobbing in station isn't working. I noticed that the "inertia" setting didn't seem to be doing anything so I turned offset on ... nothing happened. Tried turning all the other options on and off... no effect. The option for try the new camera is removed and I seem to be stuck using the old camera in space and the new camera in station.... sooooo..... kinda broke.

(Turning camera bobbing on and off in station does nothing to stop the ship bobbing up and down btw)

Also this testing is done on 2 different client logins. Both clients experiencing the same thing.

Edit: Just to confirm this. It definitely is the old camera I'm stuck with in space. All the new buttons and controls are unavailable.

Edit: Bug report submitted along with screen shot showing the old camera controls on the UI.


Same for me as well
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#16 - 2016-03-03 17:22:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
Logged in today to check for changes. I see now that the "try the new camera" box is back.
Undocked and all seemed well. I'm now able to use the new camera. Options are now working as expected and WOW with inertia set all the way left that thing just goes and goes and goes and goes. lol Works just fine for my tastes set all the way to the right though so no complaints there.

With camera offset turned off and using tracking camera the camera doesn't make a direct line to the selected target. It kind shoots over as if it wants the camera to be offset and then drifts the ship back into the center of the screen. As opposed to before when it would shoot to center then drift the ship out of center. Is this necessary? It's really visually unpleasing. It's not a functional problem ofc so not a priority but it's (imo) just not ideal aesthetically and creates a slight woozy sensation.

Only other niggle is that when in station you still can't turn off the ship bobbing up and down. I can't say how nauseating it is for my ship to keep bobbing like that when I'm supposed to be sitting still in station. Of all the camera effects so far that is the one the gives me the greatest sensation of sea sickness. It really tricks the brain into feeling like riding over waves. Please make it so that disabling camera bobbing also disables that effect otherwise I'll personally just be forced..... wait a second.... you removed the option to not load station environment! UBER not good. So not only does the wave riding ship in the hanger make me sea sick but I can't even turn off station environment to make it go away. If this goes live I guess I'll just have to make my inventory window block out my entire ship... can't say that's a step in the right direction.

Edit: Just to add. The camera bobbing option does stop the camera moving up and down in station but it's the ship that keeps moving.

Daemun of Khanid

Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#17 - 2016-03-03 23:34:18 UTC
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#18 - 2016-03-04 06:00:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Logged in today to check for changes. I see now that the "try the new camera" box is back.
Undocked and all seemed well. I'm now able to use the new camera. Options are now working as expected and WOW with inertia set all the way left that thing just goes and goes and goes and goes. lol Works just fine for my tastes set all the way to the right though so no complaints there.

With camera offset turned off and using tracking camera the camera doesn't make a direct line to the selected target. It kind shoots over as if it wants the camera to be offset and then drifts the ship back into the center of the screen. As opposed to before when it would shoot to center then drift the ship out of center. Is this necessary? It's really visually unpleasing. It's not a functional problem ofc so not a priority but it's (imo) just not ideal aesthetically and creates a slight woozy sensation.

Only other niggle is that when in station you still can't turn off the ship bobbing up and down. I can't say how nauseating it is for my ship to keep bobbing like that when I'm supposed to be sitting still in station. Of all the camera effects so far that is the one the gives me the greatest sensation of sea sickness. It really tricks the brain into feeling like riding over waves. Please make it so that disabling camera bobbing also disables that effect otherwise I'll personally just be forced..... wait a second.... you removed the option to not load station environment! UBER not good. So not only does the wave riding ship in the hanger make me sea sick but I can't even turn off station environment to make it go away. If this goes live I guess I'll just have to make my inventory window block out my entire ship... can't say that's a step in the right direction.

Edit: Just to add. The camera bobbing option does stop the camera moving up and down in station but it's the ship that keeps moving.


Agreed. The ship bouncing in station is sickening and needs to go away or be covered with windows. Also the lack of static background option is a huge concern for performance reasons as well as aesthetics. Not everyone cares about ship spinning and those of us who don't can get a vast performance improvement by having the static background. I did a test on TQ and checked Load Station Environment on all my characters for a day. Normally I have 3-4 docked and 2-4 in space, so my average framerate went way down to render the station scenes I never look at.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#19 - 2016-03-04 14:27:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
Orbit camera :
Please fix the non-linear zoom speed when closely zoomed in, in station view (when docked) AND in orbit view (even though the later's issues are slightly less pronounced). It is mildly infuriating to have to scroll the same amount to go from full zoom(100%) to 95% zoom, than to go from 95% to minimum (0%) zoom.

You should also reduce the amount of camera offset we get from ship speed, decelerating is quite disturbing.

The right clic to move the camera around on the point of view axis should be restored to the orbit view, just like in the old camera. Including the right click + left click for zoom after you've started doing the right click thing.

Tactical camera :
Could you please implement a mode where the camera, after using the right click to move around, would stay in its position relative to the player, instead of staying in position relative to the grid?

All modes :
Please restore the ability to use a short tap to ALT to center the camera on the ship. And if possible, another short tap to ALT to move the camera back to where it was.

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Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
#20 - 2016-03-04 19:13:55 UTC
Thought I posted about this already, but apparently not.

The orbit camera is still missing two features that were very helpful. In the old camera, you could right-click+drag to turn the camera away from what it was centered on. It was very nice for taking screenshots and generally looking around. Also, while holding right-click after dragging, you could hold left-click and drag to zoom in further than you could with the mousewheel. It was very useful for checking what guns were on battleships, for example.

Besides those, I think the orbit camera is feature-complete, just needs some tweaks like to the previously mentioned offset from speed.
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