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Dev blog: Overlays, ISK Buyer Amnesty and Account Security

First post First post
Author
Sarah Flynt
Red Cross Mercenaries
Silent Infinity
#41 - 2016-02-23 18:11:08 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
Quote:
e.g. ​​​In short: Do NOT use any tools/applications/modifications which either modify the client in any way OR provide you any kind of unfair benefit/advantage.


What is an unfair benefit/advantage?
Is using EFT or PYFA an unfair benefit/advantage?
Is using a spreadsheet to help with industry calculations an unfair benefit/advantage?
Is using a more tailored app like Eve Mentat or ISK per hour an unfair benefit/advantage?
This really needs clarifying properly!

Quote:
We may, in our discretion, tolerate the use of applications or other software that simply enhance player enjoyment in a way that maintains fair gameplay.
AS LONG AS it’s fair to everybody - neither you nor anybody else gets any unfair advantage – we are fine with it.


Again, what is unfair benefit/advantage?
What applications are tolerated and what are not?
There are some very advanced applications that use the CREST API to make industry much more viable to their users - in fact I would say that if you don't use a tool, doing manufacturing profitably is very difficult. They certainly give benefits and advantages but are they fair?

CCP please help me understand.

This pretty much. You really have to be much more specific about what you mean by "unfair", at least give us a good idea of the nature of what you deem "unfair" as a bannable offense.

Is it unfair to write and use private applications that use mathmatical techniques that most players didn't even know exist in the first place? Sure it is, that's what it's all about. But is it "unfair" in the spirit of the EULA?

The irony is that EVE at its very core is about being unfair towards others.

Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !

Papa Django
Materials Harvesting Kombinat
#42 - 2016-02-23 18:11:49 UTC
CCP Peligro wrote:
Thanks for all your feedback and criticism so far! Please keep it coming, we're watching this thread and will post replies to serious questions in the near future.


I use isboxer each time i play to get vision on my 4 accounts and to be able to switch easily between them.

Vision help me to see when a warp is done or about to be done, if a ship come at a gate, where my mining cycle are, etc ...

It help me a lot.

I fear that it is what you are calling an unfair advantage, which would simply doom my user experience.

For me the equation is simple : Isboxer is the only way to play 4 accounts simultaneously. Switching ALT+TAB is quite acceptable with 2 accounts, it is simply unplayable with 3+.

I need my 4 accounts for the way i currently play Eve.

So it's simple, if isboxer is banned, let us know it, then i will probably auto-ban myself also and find a game more reasonnable.
Zanthrus Stetille
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
#43 - 2016-02-23 18:12:52 UTC
I do not have enough desk space to have multiple monitors. Instead I have a single monitor on which I run multiple windowed clients which I have manually re-sized. Is this legal? Why provide a windowed mode if it is not allowed to have multiple clients visible simultaneously?
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2016-02-23 18:16:27 UTC
i fully understand your need to keep the eula as vague as possible

however, could you please provide us with a bit more details about software and/or features you will treat with the banhammer soon(tm)?

Much like you use exploit notifications.

Messages like

"As of next downtime, don't use ISBoxer or any other software to stitch multiple clients together for any purpose whatsoever. Here are some examples of things we will no longer tolerate." are much more useful than super vague legal speak that basically says you can do whatever you want whenever you want without any warning whatsoever.

In the past, i have used a tool that allowed me to have one eve client always on top, just to see local from another system. would that be considered a problem? i could literally use a second screen that is positioned in front of my first one to replicate the functionality without being in trouble. that's stupid.
Sean Crees
Sean's Safe Haven
#45 - 2016-02-23 18:16:35 UTC
Where is CCP Quaint? We demand good graph porn on our dev blogs!
Ghenghis Kralj
Big Johnson's
#46 - 2016-02-23 18:23:35 UTC
I am extremely concerned in your detection methodology. I do not see how you can differentiate 3rd party software influence and gamers with multiple monitors and game instances. I have worked on these issues for close to 10 years, and your lack of assurances for the innocent is quite offensive. You have not laid out anything in how you would differentiate between those 2 groups. Sorry to say, I am not confident in your ability to do so. Also, your graph is cool. Cause...you know...you catch a 100% of offenders, am i right? There is no way that you aren't capturing the full RMT picture.
Papa Django
Materials Harvesting Kombinat
#47 - 2016-02-23 18:29:51 UTC
After reading again it is pretty clear :

Quote:

We do consider overlays using elements of a second or multiple other EVE clients to be against the rules. It changes the way the game is played and grants the player unfair advantages over other players. For example, having overviews from other EVE clients as overlays on one EVE client would allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows. Similarly, overlays using elements from a second or multiple other EVE clients to allow the player to activate modules etc. on those other game instances without switching to the other client windows are clearly in violation of our rules. - See more at: http://evenews24.com/2016/02/23/devblog-overlays-isk-buyer-amnesty-and-account-security/#sthash.jOtNQ97p.dpuf


So ISboxer is effectively banned.

A last question, is your detection methodology takes account about pvp or not ? I do not do pvp anymore. I do industry and trade. What kind of "unfair advantages" could i have in this case ?
lord xavier
Rubbed Out
#48 - 2016-02-23 18:33:19 UTC
I am concerned not only with your detetion methods of program uses, but how this will effect eve for limiting active accounts per moniter/screen.

I have been using Eve-O preview for some time now. As it makes it easy to not only switch between acounts but view each character. It is no different than me running 5 accounts and condensing them down in terms of intel.Howver, removing the legal use of overlay programs such as Eve-O Preview will greatly reduc the efficency in which you can. Which gives the player with one monther a great disadvantage over people with 2+ screens.

Honestly, if programs such as this are banned. I wont be fixing it by buying more moniters. I will probably just sell my characters and assets and just quit. I was drawn into eve by ability to run multiple clients. The additional risk in that. Now though, it will make running multiple clients on a smaller moniter (such as I have currently) just unrealistic in terms of PVP.
Koenig Yazria
Adversity.
Hisec Miners
#49 - 2016-02-23 18:34:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Koenig Yazria
Papa Django wrote:
After reading again it is pretty clear :

Quote:

We do consider overlays using elements of a second or multiple other EVE clients to be against the rules. It changes the way the game is played and grants the player unfair advantages over other players. For example, having overviews from other EVE clients as overlays on one EVE client would allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows. Similarly, overlays using elements from a second or multiple other EVE clients to allow the player to activate modules etc. on those other game instances without switching to the other client windows are clearly in violation of our rules. - See more at: http://evenews24.com/2016/02/23/devblog-overlays-isk-buyer-amnesty-and-account-security/#sthash.jOtNQ97p.dpuf


So ISboxer is effectively banned.

A last question, is your detection methodology takes account about pvp or not ? I do not do pvp anymore. I do industry and trade. What kind of "unfair advantages" could i have in this case ?



Or not, as it states "elements of" and not full screens. The wording is extremely poor and could lead to both conclusions.

Which is cool when you are writing stuff about bans.
Pandora Bokks
Pangalactic Frontline Supply Agency
#50 - 2016-02-23 18:38:17 UTC
Koz Katral wrote:
So isboxer is now 100% banned because it allows you to only reveal certain elements of the eve client.

But what about eve preview? in theory it should be ok because it doesn't isolate any individual elements and just displays the entire client window.

As usual this is ridiculously vague.

Classic CCP. I doubt anyone will know until the ban wave hits and hundreds of legit customers are just cut out of the loop.

If you ban preview, it will definitely be in up there on the list of 'dumbest things CCP has ever done'


Please ban Windows 10, hovering over the icon shows a preview of all open clients (it is small but I have bird eyes).
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#51 - 2016-02-23 18:40:33 UTC
We hear it on the forums first instead of #tweetfleet, reddit/r/eve, eve-nt Cool

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF

RAGE QUIT
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2016-02-23 18:58:27 UTC
In other news having a scout in the next system over is now considered an unfair advantage. CCP now bans multiple accounts from the same IP, MAC, or Client Hash. Sarcasm or not? Vote with your subscription.
Rawthorm
The Establishment
#53 - 2016-02-23 19:04:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Rawthorm
Niraia wrote:
"We do consider overlays using elements of a second or multiple other EVE clients to be against the rules."

Could you please let me know if using the tool 'EVE Online previewer' (https://bitbucket.org/ulph/eve-o-preview-git) which CCP FoxFour contributed to constitutes violation of this rule?

Here is a screenshot of how I use it.

The tool uses live taskbar previews, a Windows feature that exists in 7 onwards, which allows you to preview the contents of a window by hovering your cursor over it in the taskbar. What you see on my left monitor are slightly bigger copies of the images generated by the operating system.

I see this as no different to moving a client to my second monitor and making it really small. It's essentially doing the exact same thing as the Windows taskbar but with larger previews. The overlay does not forward mouse actions to the previewed clients; clicking a preview only switches focus to that client.


That aside, consider your example of using an overlay to display an overview from another client on top of another. This isn't something I do, but is it really much different to running two clients with two monitors? I think you're in very weird territory, trying to limit the way we view clients.



Aye, this needs MAJOR clarification. A good starting point would be coming up with a coherent position in house before playing Rule-Fu with the rest of us. Other than a fork of EvE-O being maintained by CCP's own staff, I know for a fact a great many of devs use EvE-O and Isboxer themselves.

And before anyone points to the "use at your own risk" bit, I'd like to call horse hockey on that. You don't reward over 10 years of being a loyal customer by dangling the sword of Damocles over our heads because you can't be bothered to come up with a coherent position.
Archibald Thistlewaite III
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners
#54 - 2016-02-23 19:04:54 UTC
Most of you really need to go back and re-read the devblog. You should also read the EULA and ToS. So many people jumping to conclusions that would be cleared up by actually reading it all properly.

CCP can not comment on individual third party programs. They have no control over them. The majority of third-party programs do not break the EULA themselves, however they can be used to break the EULA and that is a crucial distinction people need to understand.

Asking if this program or that program is in violationof the EULA is a question that can not be answered. Its what you are doing with the program thats important.

User of 'Bumblefck's Luscious & Luminous Mustachio Wax'

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#55 - 2016-02-23 19:06:36 UTC
Several of the posted questions should be petitioned instead.

When your account gets banned, it is helpful to be able to refer to GM replies. Make sure to backup any GM replies so they are accessible outside of the game client. Leave the petitions in your inbox too, so CCP can find them if they go missing from their account logs.

Been there. Done that. Have the scars, and I am so paranoid now that I won't even do things CCP has explicitly told me are OK.
Tiberizzle
Your Mom Heavy Industries
#56 - 2016-02-23 19:07:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberizzle
Many Linux window managers which utilize compositing have standard configurations that allow live preview of offscreen windows or other virtual desktops, and some even pass keystrokes to the offscreen window or virtual desktop when the preview is hovered.

I believe Windows 10 is approaching parity with some of these features as well.

Will users of these modern compositing windowing environments be considered as using third party software for an unfair advantage, since they use elements of one or more Eve clients in what can only be described as an overlay?

If not, is isboxer not itself essentially a particularly configurable modern compositing window manager being used in the intended manner?

If you want to ban isboxer, why don't you just say "We're banning isboxer" instead of dancing around the point and vaguely indicting basically every modern desktop windowing environment?

I am really struggling to understand what it is that is being ruled against here with the aversion to outlining clear restrictions or providing specific examples.

I also think when you start placing restrictions on presentation and input mapping beyond multicasting (or multicasting "workarounds" like rollover bars) you're starting to roll down a slippery slope at the bottom of which lies pretty much banning people for being too good.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#57 - 2016-02-23 19:10:42 UTC
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
Most of you really need to go back and re-read the devblog. You should also read the EULA and ToS. So many people jumping to conclusions that would be cleared up by actually reading it all properly.

CCP can not comment on individual third party programs. They have no control over them. The majority of third-party programs do not break the EULA themselves, however they can be used to break the EULA and that is a crucial distinction people need to understand.

Asking if this program or that program is in violationof the EULA is a question that can not be answered. Its what you are doing with the program thats important.

... also a program that is legal today might not be tomorrow if the program is changed Hence CCP can't make anything other than generic statements.

If you are unsure, ask a GM. If you are still unsure, don't do it.
Shadoroth
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#58 - 2016-02-23 19:11:52 UTC
Tiberizzle wrote:

I also think when you start placing restrictions on presentation and input mapping beyond multicasting (or multicasting "workarounds" like rollover bars) you're starting to roll down a slippery slope at the bottom of which lies pretty much banning people for being too good.


Being better at the game than me is unfair. You are using the game client in a way that gives you an unfair advantage over me. Enjoy your ban.
lord xavier
Rubbed Out
#59 - 2016-02-23 19:17:41 UTC
Shadoroth wrote:
Tiberizzle wrote:

I also think when you start placing restrictions on presentation and input mapping beyond multicasting (or multicasting "workarounds" like rollover bars) you're starting to roll down a slippery slope at the bottom of which lies pretty much banning people for being too good.


Being better at the game than me is unfair. You are using the game client in a way that gives you an unfair advantage over me. Enjoy your ban.
You're allies bested my alt by having 10 people ready for me. This was an unfair advantage of 1v10. Enjoy your ban.
Papa Django
Materials Harvesting Kombinat
#60 - 2016-02-23 19:20:21 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Several of the posted questions should be petitioned instead.

When your account gets banned, it is helpful to be able to refer to GM replies. Make sure to backup any GM replies so they are accessible outside of the game client. Leave the petitions in your inbox too, so CCP can find them if they go missing from their account logs.

Been there. Done that. Have the scars, and I am so paranoid now that I won't even do things CCP has explicitly told me are OK.


This is the best proposal i have read here.

I will petition with each account. Every player concerned with this should do the same.