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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Specialty Haulers should be made to need cargo expanders, too!

Author
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#21 - 2016-02-21 06:52:18 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:

In case of freighters, I wholeheartedly disagree with you. Exactly because EC do not have stacking penalties there is a meaningful point in switching between ECs and Istabs. Beyond ECs and Istabs, there are no meaningful fitting choices for freighters, stacking penalties or not.

That is a problem of freighters having no PG, CPU or slots to make meaningful fitting choices. Hamstringing the entire system in order to maintain a bad choice is silly.

It has nothing to do with lack of fitting resources, it is simply pointless to fit tank to a freighter. You either need cargo or you need agility, nothing else matters.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#22 - 2016-02-21 07:52:03 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:

It has nothing to do with lack of fitting resources, it is simply pointless to fit tank to a freighter. You either need cargo or you need agility, nothing else matters.

Unless you could fit Freighters with a full range of capital low, medium & high modules.
Industrials are treated as second class targets by CCP and as long as that continues to be true they will be unrewarding ships to fly and targets of ganks will always feel victimized because they have been forced by CCP into a defenceless ship which can't afford escorts because industrial ships in space earn low isk/hour (Yes T2 manufacturing and the odd trade between hubs or very high value good can be high value, but on the whole it's poor isk/hour for actually flying the ship.)

At the point you have a full range of fittings AND cargo extenders have a stacking penalty, you now actually have fitting options that have meaningful trade off's and are not in a binary fit option but can consider 20 different priorities.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#23 - 2016-02-21 08:03:27 UTC
Which in turn would remove the differentiation between combat ships and hauling ships, which means it is not going to happen. Haulers are not supposed to have defensive capabilities beyond a "tank". Guns and offensive modules in large numbers are meant for combat ships.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2016-02-21 08:11:17 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Which in turn would remove the differentiation between combat ships and hauling ships, which means it is not going to happen. Haulers are not supposed to have defensive capabilities beyond a "tank". Guns and offensive modules in large numbers are meant for combat ships.

Who said anything about weapons? We're talking about giving industrial ships proper fitting room for their size class, primarily mids and lows, with ample powergrid. Nobody is suggesting turning industrials into combat ships.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#25 - 2016-02-21 08:15:12 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
I'm sorry? I thought you said you didn't want anything to be nerfed.

I didn't say that. This thread is about either nerfing specialized haulers (they could use a nerf) or buffing standard haulers (they NEED a buff). The main point is to correct the giant gaping chasm that is the disparity between specialized haulers and standard haulers.


So...

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

I'm trying to be as clear as possible that I'm not pushing for any change to max cargohold size, only change to base cargohold size along with stacking penalty on expanders. This will in no way nerf specialized haulers but will be a huge buff to standard haulers.



You're not wanting a nerf to specialised haulers, but you are wanting a nerf to specialised haulers?

Why do you think the difference in sizes is actually a problem anyway? I can ONLY haul PI gear in my epithal, while my iteron V can haul anything I want. How is there an issue when both ships fit in seperate niches and do different things?

Why do you want a return to the times when everyone flew iteron Vs and nothing else was ever undocked?
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2016-02-21 08:21:49 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
You're not wanting a nerf to specialised haulers, but you are wanting a nerf to specialised haulers?

Why do you think the difference in sizes is actually a problem anyway? I can ONLY haul PI gear in my epithal, while my iteron V can haul anything I want. How is there an issue when both ships fit in seperate niches and do different things?

Why do you want a return to the times when everyone flew iteron Vs and nothing else was ever undocked?

I meant it will in no way nerf how much capacity they have.


I don't think the difference in size is a problem. I think the difference in which one has fitting options is the problem. Why should the Epithal get full fitting freedom while the Nereus and Iteron Mk V have to fit cargo expanders in all low and rig slots just to gain slightly competitive space?

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#27 - 2016-02-21 08:45:45 UTC
Because a nerus or an iteron V can haul whatever they want, not an extremely limited range of items.

It is called a tradeoff.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2016-02-21 09:10:46 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Because a nerus or an iteron V can haul whatever they want, not an extremely limited range of items.

It is called a tradeoff.

The tradeoff is too strong. The Epithal carries nearly twice as much as the Iteron Mk V with full cargo fit; with no expanders it hauls nearly ten times as much.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#29 - 2016-02-21 09:19:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Which in turn would remove the differentiation between combat ships and hauling ships, which means it is not going to happen. Haulers are not supposed to have defensive capabilities beyond a "tank". Guns and offensive modules in large numbers are meant for combat ships.

Who said anything about weapons? We're talking about giving industrial ships proper fitting room for their size class, primarily mids and lows, with ample powergrid. Nobody is suggesting turning industrials into combat ships.

If you give haulers no weapons, tank is useless against a gank attempt. Without being able to kill off the pesky mosquitoes, the haulers still dies regardless of how much tank it has.
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Because a nerus or an iteron V can haul whatever they want, not an extremely limited range of items.

It is called a tradeoff.

The tradeoff is too strong. The Epithal carries nearly twice as much as the Iteron Mk V with full cargo fit; with no expanders it hauls nearly ten times as much.

The Epithal just as the Iteron V cannot carry anything worth anything on trade routes that matter. Any T1 hauler with more than 100M in their cargo is a 98% guaranteed suicide.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#30 - 2016-02-21 09:23:15 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Because a nerus or an iteron V can haul whatever they want, not an extremely limited range of items.

It is called a tradeoff.

The tradeoff is too strong. The Epithal carries nearly twice as much as the Iteron Mk V with full cargo fit; with no expanders it hauls nearly ten times as much.


The Epithal is also useless if you want to haul minerals as it can carry a grand total of 550m3.
Iain Cariaba
#31 - 2016-02-21 09:54:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Iain Cariaba
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Because a nerus or an iteron V can haul whatever they want, not an extremely limited range of items.

It is called a tradeoff.

The tradeoff is too strong. The Epithal carries nearly twice as much as the Iteron Mk V with full cargo fit; with no expanders it hauls nearly ten times as much.

The Epithal can carry twice as much PI materials as the Iteron Mk V. On the otherhand, the Iteron Mk V, on my alt that has Gallente Industrial V, can carry 10x as much of every ******* thing else than the Epithal, with no fitting. Add a full cargo fit and they number goes up so that the Iteron Mk V can carry 58 times the amount of everything other than PI that the Epithal can.

I don't see where this is a problem. The problem I see, as was previously mentioned, is that you're comparing monkey balls and apples.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2016-02-21 10:03:15 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
If you give haulers no weapons, tank is useless against a gank attempt. Without being able to kill off the pesky mosquitoes, the haulers still dies regardless of how much tank it has.

My tank and survival rate begs to differ. There are many ways tank helps you live until you escape, You just have to be ready to escape at all. Also, buffer tank is king for protection against suicide ganks in highsec.

Rivr Luzade wrote:
The Epithal just as the Iteron V cannot carry anything worth anything on trade routes that matter. Any T1 hauler with more than 100M in their cargo is a 98% guaranteed suicide.

My Epithal carries 300 mil worth through highsec trade routes near Amarr during highsec wars and I have yet to get ganked.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#33 - 2016-02-21 14:47:49 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
There is a blatant unbalance between standard and specialty industrials in which, while their max storage sizes are pretty well balanced, the specialty industrials reach that max without any cargo expanders but the standard haulers only reach it with a full set of expanders.

Working as intended if you ask me, now people are flying something other than the Iteron V of old.
Working as intended because now there are not only fitting choices to be made but ship choices as well and to me that is a good thing.

Nevyn Auscent wrote:
A stacking penalty on cargo extenders is generally good for haulers since it actually provides them with much more meaningful choices.

At lvl 5 skills the capacity of a maximum cargo fit would not change, yet the base capacity is lowered to account for the greater bonuses from these new +40% expanders that are subject to stacking penalties. I cannot even begin to see how this is giving the pilot MORE fitting choices.

In the end the only players I see benefiting from this are the gankers for that reason alone this gets -1.
Not true you may say and I obviously disagree.
Expanders would be needed to even reach the current base cargo volume leaving fewer slots to fit tank, stabs, or agility mods making the gankers life easier. Go full tank, stabs or agility fit and you nerf your capacity forcing you to make more trips to haul the same stuff which again increases your risk of being ganked.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#34 - 2016-02-21 16:09:03 UTC
But the spa were balanced around not needing the lows for expanders particularly the dsts
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#35 - 2016-02-21 17:48:49 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Because a nerus or an iteron V can haul whatever they want, not an extremely limited range of items.

It is called a tradeoff.

The tradeoff is too strong. The Epithal carries nearly twice as much as the Iteron Mk V with full cargo fit; with no expanders it hauls nearly ten times as much.


The Epithal is also useless if you want to haul minerals as it can carry a grand total of 550m3.


Or anything else....you see a guy in an epithal you KNOW what he is hauling.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#36 - 2016-02-21 19:32:16 UTC
Haven't I posted in this thread before?

Oh, wait. That was this one:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=372369

Reaver, I know it's been a few years, but things haven't changed enough to warrant messing about with specialized indies.

Well, except that we might need a few more types. Blink

--Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."

Lugh Crow-Slave
#37 - 2016-02-21 20:17:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
Haven't I posted in this thread before?

Oh, wait. That was this one:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=372369

Reaver, I know it's been a few years, but things haven't changed enough to warrant messing about with specialized indies.

Well, except that we might need a few more types. Blink

--Gadget



I say fuel for caldari (including isotopes) and non pi components for amarr
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2016-02-21 21:40:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Donnachadh wrote:
At lvl 5 skills the capacity of a maximum cargo fit would not change, yet the base capacity is lowered

Lowered!? No, it would be raised a lot. I don't think you understand how stacking penalties work.

The Iteron Mk V would have its base cargohold increased from 5800 to 11,000. If cargo expanders weren't buffed, the base cargo size would be increased a lot more: 14,750 on the Iteron Mk V. The buff to cargo expanders is nothing short of a nerf to the buff that is giving stacking penalty to cargo expanders.




Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
Reaver, I know it's been a few years, but things haven't changed enough to warrant messing about with specialized indies.

It was never not a good time. From the moment these mutant monstrosities stepped forth onto Tranquility, they have maintained an unparalleled superiority over regular industrials that can be expressed in no smaller terms than the difference between ants and giants.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#39 - 2016-02-21 21:55:56 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
You're not wanting a nerf to specialised haulers, but you are wanting a nerf to specialised haulers?

Why do you think the difference in sizes is actually a problem anyway? I can ONLY haul PI gear in my epithal, while my iteron V can haul anything I want. How is there an issue when both ships fit in seperate niches and do different things?

Why do you want a return to the times when everyone flew iteron Vs and nothing else was ever undocked?

I meant it will in no way nerf how much capacity they have.


I don't think the difference in size is a problem. I think the difference in which one has fitting options is the problem. Why should the Epithal get full fitting freedom while the Nereus and Iteron Mk V have to fit cargo expanders in all low and rig slots just to gain slightly competitive space?


But they really are not competing. If you are going to haul PI stuff you are doing it wrong if you are using an Iteron Mk V. Conversely if I need to haul Stuff™ I use an Iteron Mk. V. Depending on what I haul may change the fittings on the Iteron V or even switch over to a transport ship.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#40 - 2016-02-21 22:03:28 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Because a nerus or an iteron V can haul whatever they want, not an extremely limited range of items.

It is called a tradeoff.

The tradeoff is too strong. The Epithal carries nearly twice as much as the Iteron Mk V with full cargo fit; with no expanders it hauls nearly ten times as much.


Twice as much what?

Yes an Epithal can care 2x the PI material an Iteron V can. The Iteron V can carry almost 17x more non-PI cargo than an Epithal.

Nerf the Iteron V!!! [/sarcasm]

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online