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Worries about the skill injectors, and the future of the game.

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sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#241 - 2016-02-20 08:57:45 UTC  |  Edited by: sero Hita
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Because like most games it was restricted. In WoW by time to level but more so the abilty to loot items. In EvE by time. Now its only limited by RL funds. All success in EvE is now skewed in favour of RL funds. While you can spend a few months to a few years to get the sane benefit you can also take out the CC and do it in minutes. Since player skill is available to all over time it becones an irrelevant consideration.

Ill give an example so we dont go back and forth arguing about inconsistencies - Joe and Jeff are average players. theyre in a system in null fighting. they engage and after an average fight using average skills Joe beats Jeff by a few HP. Jeff docks injects 10,000,000 SP he bought maxing cap, HP, and other core skills. He undocks and even though an identical fight takes place he has more HP cap etc and wins. Jeff won because he paid to win. simple


I don't think succes is skewed towards RL funds tbh. SPs matters little in exploration, mining and trading, it is more location location location. It matters more in production, but there you often also need a bigger setup, to make it profittable. So only buying SP will not do too much.

In combat it also matters little. Sure one can put up an example like yours, designed to only lead to your conclusion, but that leaves a lot of complexity you would encounter in New Eden. You leave out all the game mechanics one can use to counter this. There is no difference for a new player to encounter a 13 year old veteran with good playerskills or another player who bought the SP (unless the person who SP has less player skill). If we could kill the occational veteran when i started two years ago, I hypothesize that a new player today can also kill the occational vet or SP infused player, if using the right tools.
Tools:

- group up and bait

- fly hard counters ( a crappy rock, will often beat a good scissor)

-be creative (I once killed a much beter pilot, flying a blingy confessor in a crappy fit belicose with three neuts, cap booster and drones. took me some time due to the crappy drone DPS, but he was not going anywere). With all the modules available one can make some interesting counters if one is creative.

TLDR: I think you are overestimating the effect of SP, as it is how you use them that counts. EVE is a big game, and not every player is a game god able to utilize this. Will there be some who can? yes, there will.

Will they affect me more than the 13 year old veterans do now? no.

Will everyone do an Ironbank? ofc not, most people lack the means. Besides having all the skills on one char does nothing, as you cannot do hauling, mining, ganking, exploring, fleeting, doing incursions and wormhole stuff all at once.

And if you have to be honest, outside of the forum crying, have you felt any effect of this Sp trading? I have not. And I am still training normally on my three 30 mill chars. I am not earning less, or dying more than usuall

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
WhyTry1
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#242 - 2016-02-20 09:01:37 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Demolishar wrote:
Almost 3000 words. A pity that your great work will be locked for ranting soon.


I don't really think this is a rant to be honest, and many of these points were discussed internally before the feature went live, or was fully fleshed out.

I've also been with EVE for 13 years, ironically my first reaction to skillpoint trading was negative too, but it was a knee-jerk reaction from a 13 year veteran of the game who thought a change so fundamental would destroy everything he loved about EVE.

I'm happy to say that I was wrong, and after I looked at the situation from what I consider to be a sensible point of view that came after my initial reaction, the rationale for it kind of fell into place and I now understand the system.

There's a simple flaw with any "Pay To Win" argument against skill trading.

A pilot who knows what they're doing with a Rifter and a 2 skillpoints can end the world for a clueless player with 300 million skillpoints. Put the average driver in an F1 car and they're not going to have the first idea of how to drive it, despite having a driver's license.

All skillpoints do is unlock the ability to fly a given hull with a given weapon, or utilize a given module to a particular end. Using the ship and modules is where the skill lies, and is the key to victory or failure. That's what defines you as an EVE player.

Being able to trade skillpoints and freely respec your character changes very little. What it does is allow people to keep their gameplay fresh and try new things, or gives new players a leg up to be able to try new things faster if they choose to do so.

That's my take on it anyway, as a 13 year vet of EVE.

Smile


i therefore would like to know why this hasbt been locked where mine was

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6343543#post6343543

for so.called ranting which it wasnt plus isnt even on the scale of this. typical reaction when ccp.want to slience something they dont want to hear
Sneaky Little Bastard
Doomheim
#243 - 2016-02-20 11:44:37 UTC
Moderators are here to moderate not to think.
Darkblad
Doomheim
#244 - 2016-02-20 12:27:18 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
There's a simple flaw with any "Pay To Win" argument against skill trading.

A pilot who knows what they're doing with a Rifter and a 2 skillpoints can end the world for a clueless player with 300 million skillpoints. Put the average driver in an F1 car and they're not going to have the first idea of how to drive it, despite having a driver's license.

Get from T1 Projectile turrets to Small Autocannon Specialization level 4 and the prereq. to 5

23 days of training or 2 Injectors (for a bit less than a million additional SP)

Does the character that chose the path of training the skills passively know anything better?
The Skilljector can requip and use advanced turrets and ammo.

NPE-ISD-Übersetzt!
Durgis Athonille
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#245 - 2016-02-20 13:40:16 UTC
Darkblad wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
There's a simple flaw with any "Pay To Win" argument against skill trading.

A pilot who knows what they're doing with a Rifter and a 2 skillpoints can end the world for a clueless player with 300 million skillpoints. Put the average driver in an F1 car and they're not going to have the first idea of how to drive it, despite having a driver's license.

Get from T1 Projectile turrets to Small Autocannon Specialization level 4 and the prereq. to 5

23 days of training or 2 Injectors (for a bit less than a million additional SP)

Does the character that chose the path of training the skills passively know anything better?
The Skilljector can requip and use advanced turrets and ammo.


The "Skilljectors" as you call them can fit the ship and fly it in battle. They can test the fit and have fun while the other players wait behind an arbitrary time gate because they have no choice and they cannot accelerate their training.
No choice is not fun.
When CCP released skins they could have released an "electromagnetic hull painting" skill and forced people to wait two months to change the look of their ship.
That's just dumb.

I want to fly X ship.
No. You have to wait 6 months before you can fly that ship.
Why?
Because it takes six months before you can fly that ship.
Is there nothing I can do to be able to fly that ship in under six months?
Yes. You can buy a pilot with a history that has nothing to with you that can fly that ship.
Is there no in game option I can use that will allow me to fly that ship in under six months?
No.
That's dumb.
That's tough. That's the way it is. That's EVE.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#246 - 2016-02-20 13:45:34 UTC
I didn't read the whole thing because I have subtraction, but one thing to consider is that with plex investment comes a feeling of necessary attachment.

"well, i've spent $200 on PLEX to buy skill injectors to level up my dude so I might as well at least make a dedicated attempt to get my moneys worth"

USA #1
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#247 - 2016-02-20 14:10:01 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
(tools)


Asking for PvE tools to generate and enable content doesn't works any better than asking for "themepark" content. Apparently CCP can't conceive any PvP that's not "someone F1'ed someone's something and the something went BOOM".

If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail... Roll
Darkblad
Doomheim
#248 - 2016-02-20 15:38:40 UTC
Durgis Athonille wrote:
The "Skilljectors" as you call them can fit the ship and fly it in battle. They can test the fit and have fun while the other players wait behind an arbitrary time gate because they have no choice and they cannot accelerate their training.
No choice is not fun.
So those that can afford the ISK for the Injectors have more fun? Given that this feature is designed for new players, it's very unlikely that they will have collected the ISK on other ways than buying PLEX for real money. That'd mean that new players that have more real money to spend are at an advantage.

Players with less real money to spend have to wait.

NPE-ISD-Übersetzt!
Sneaky Little Bastard
Doomheim
#249 - 2016-02-20 17:11:05 UTC
Darkblad wrote:


Players with less real money to spend have to wait.


Or quit.
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#250 - 2016-02-20 18:10:46 UTC
IlIIlIIIlllIlIllIIIIll wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
[quote=
There's a simple flaw with any "Pay To Win" argument against skill trading.

A pilot who knows what they're doing with a Rifter and a 2 skillpoints can end the world for a clueless player with 300 million skillpoints. Put the average driver in an F1 car and they're not going to have the first idea of how to drive it, despite having a driver's license.


Sell gold ammo then, it's not because you have gold ammo that you can aim.
Make plex buyable solar systems sovereignty too, it's not because you can buy them that you can defend them.
Sell purple item the same way ? It's not because i can buy them that i know how to play with them.



If not gold ammo, then at least sell pilot starter packs. Buy x sp injectors, these skillbooks and this ship for one low price!

If sp trading won't go away, might as well offer convenience.

CCP killed the frog. No point in boiling it now.

YK
Josef Djugashvilis
#251 - 2016-02-20 18:12:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Josef Djugashvilis
Dear CCP Falcon, the defence of cash for skills seems to be predicated on the assumption that the buyer of skills will be a 'noob' and therefore hopeless at pvp.

This a weird and erroneous assumption to make.

Why can it not, and very probably is the case, that the pvp pilot and 'relatively' new player will use cash for skills to get even better at pvp and thus have bought an advantage at he expense of a comparable player who cannot afford to pay for cash for skills?

I understand that as a CCP employee you wish to be loyal to them, but please, you know better than to believe the nonsense you have posted above.

Oh, and nobody really claims that it is 'pay to win' but it is most certainly 'pay to gain an advantage'

This is not a signature.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#252 - 2016-02-20 18:27:01 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:


Oh, and nobody really claims that it is 'pay to win, but it is most certainly ' pay to gain an advantage'


It is most certainly pay to gain an advantage. The thing that gets conveniently glossed over is that that has been in the game since CCP decided that not locking characters to their accts was okay. And then that GTCs weren't easy enough and added PLEX to the game. As well as more recently with multiple character training.

So since forever, basically.

The pay to get an advantage argument is a dead horse. A dead horse that won't be left in peace as it's flogged on a daily basis.

As to, "nobody really claims that it is 'pay to win". Yeah there are plenty of ignorant people in here that obviously very much believe that. The EVE player base may be older than other games, but it's demonstrably false to think they are any less stupid.

Mr Epeen Cool
u3pog
Ministerstvo na otbranata
Ore No More
#253 - 2016-02-20 20:39:54 UTC
What is the point of this thread or any other similar threads? The train has already left the station, enjoy the ride, it ain't going back.

P.S. When Citadels are out, people will focus their atttention on them and will forget worrying about the future of the game conserning skill injectors. It just takes time for the playerbase to adjust to such big changes. It will pass. Yes, some players might leave the train, others will hop in. EVE will survive as always. If someone should be pissed off, it's Dr.Caymus - he already adjusted to the changes, I suggest the rest of you do the same.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#254 - 2016-02-21 05:16:21 UTC
sero Hita wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Because like most games it was restricted. In WoW by time to level but more so the abilty to loot items. In EvE by time. Now its only limited by RL funds. All success in EvE is now skewed in favour of RL funds. While you can spend a few months to a few years to get the sane benefit you can also take out the CC and do it in minutes. Since player skill is available to all over time it becones an irrelevant consideration.

Ill give an example so we dont go back and forth arguing about inconsistencies - Joe and Jeff are average players. theyre in a system in null fighting. they engage and after an average fight using average skills Joe beats Jeff by a few HP. Jeff docks injects 10,000,000 SP he bought maxing cap, HP, and other core skills. He undocks and even though an identical fight takes place he has more HP cap etc and wins. Jeff won because he paid to win. simple


I don't think succes is skewed towards RL funds tbh. SPs matters little in exploration, mining and trading, it is more location location location. It matters more in production, but there you often also need a bigger setup, to make it profittable. So only buying SP will not do too much.

In combat it also matters little. Sure one can put up an example like yours, designed to only lead to your conclusion, but that leaves a lot of complexity you would encounter in New Eden. You leave out all the game mechanics one can use to counter this. There is no difference for a new player to encounter a 13 year old veteran with good playerskills or another player who bought the SP (unless the person who SP has less player skill). If we could kill the occational veteran when i started two years ago, I hypothesize that a new player today can also kill the occational vet or SP infused player, if using the right tools.
- group up and bait

- fly hard counters ( a crappy rock, will often beat a good scissor)

-be creative (I once killed a much beter pilot, flying a blingy confessor in a crappy fit belicose with three neuts, cap booster and drones. took me some time due to the crappy drone DPS, but he was not going anywere). With all the modules available one can make some interesting counters if one is creative.

TLDR: I think you are overestimating the effect of SP, as it is how you use them that counts. EVE is a big game, and not every player is a game god able to utilize this. Will there be some who can? yes, there will.

Will they affect me more than the 13 year old veterans do now? no.

Will everyone do an Ironbank? ofc not, most people lack the means. Besides having all the skills on one char does nothing, as you cannot do hauling, mining, ganking, exploring, fleeting, doing incursions and wormhole stuff all at once.

And if you have to be honest, outside of the forum crying, have you felt any effect of this Sp trading? I have not. And I am still training normally on my three 30 mill chars. I am not earning less, or dying more than usuall

SP matters little in exploration minng and trading?

I once took on a Proteus in an arranged duel with an armor tanked Raven fitted with heavy nuets n heavy missiles as that was all that was available in station. I would have eventually killed him had he not logged in an alt in a mega to save himself. I went to war with an entire alliance in their home system in null in a solo ASB Proteus and slaughtered them.

That does not mean that armor fitted HM Ravens or ASB Prots are ships that the average person should fly. Such situations are incapable of providing a meaningful comparison. They are unusual and sometimes the unusual works but on the average it does not.

When making a comparison the established method is to equalize both sides of the equation as in my example of Jeff and Joe. The only reliable to find out if Joe or Jeff can pay to win is to make Joe and Jeff average, with average skills and SP. When comparing that in same ships then adding SP to the equation we find it has a dramatic effect on the result proving you can pay to win.

While you are right that EvE PvP involves very skewed an unequal forces where one person in a group injecting wont change the outcome much (except perhaps when utilising ECM in small group play) its not a correct comparison so it should not be made.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#255 - 2016-02-21 05:28:47 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
sero Hita wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Because like most games it was restricted. In WoW by time to level but more so the abilty to loot items. In EvE by time. Now its only limited by RL funds. All success in EvE is now skewed in favour of RL funds. While you can spend a few months to a few years to get the sane benefit you can also take out the CC and do it in minutes. Since player skill is available to all over time it becones an irrelevant consideration.

Ill give an example so we dont go back and forth arguing about inconsistencies - Joe and Jeff are average players. theyre in a system in null fighting. they engage and after an average fight using average skills Joe beats Jeff by a few HP. Jeff docks injects 10,000,000 SP he bought maxing cap, HP, and other core skills. He undocks and even though an identical fight takes place he has more HP cap etc and wins. Jeff won because he paid to win. simple


I don't think succes is skewed towards RL funds tbh. SPs matters little in exploration, mining and trading, it is more location location location. It matters more in production, but there you often also need a bigger setup, to make it profittable. So only buying SP will not do too much.

In combat it also matters little. Sure one can put up an example like yours, designed to only lead to your conclusion, but that leaves a lot of complexity you would encounter in New Eden. You leave out all the game mechanics one can use to counter this. There is no difference for a new player to encounter a 13 year old veteran with good playerskills or another player who bought the SP (unless the person who SP has less player skill). If we could kill the occational veteran when i started two years ago, I hypothesize that a new player today can also kill the occational vet or SP infused player, if using the right tools.
- group up and bait

- fly hard counters ( a crappy rock, will often beat a good scissor)

-be creative (I once killed a much beter pilot, flying a blingy confessor in a crappy fit belicose with three neuts, cap booster and drones. took me some time due to the crappy drone DPS, but he was not going anywere). With all the modules available one can make some interesting counters if one is creative.

TLDR: I think you are overestimating the effect of SP, as it is how you use them that counts. EVE is a big game, and not every player is a game god able to utilize this. Will there be some who can? yes, there will.

Will they affect me more than the 13 year old veterans do now? no.

Will everyone do an Ironbank? ofc not, most people lack the means. Besides having all the skills on one char does nothing, as you cannot do hauling, mining, ganking, exploring, fleeting, doing incursions and wormhole stuff all at once.

And if you have to be honest, outside of the forum crying, have you felt any effect of this Sp trading? I have not. And I am still training normally on my three 30 mill chars. I am not earning less, or dying more than usuall

SP matters little in exploration minng and trading?

I once took on a Proteus in an arranged duel with an armor tanked Raven fitted with heavy nuets n heavy missiles as that was all that was available in station. I would have eventually killed him had he not logged in an alt in a mega to save himself. I went to war with an entire alliance in their home system in null in a solo ASB Proteus and slaughtered them.

That does not mean that armor fitted HM Ravens or ASB Prots are ships that the average person should fly. Such situations are incapable of providing a meaningful comparison. They are unusual and sometimes the unusual works but on the average it does not.

When making a comparison the established method is to equalize both sides of the equation as in my example of Jeff and Joe. The only reliable to find out if Joe or Jeff can pay to win is to make Joe and Jeff average, with average skills and SP. When comparing that in same ships then adding SP to the equation we find it has a dramatic effect on the result proving you can pay to win.

While you are right that EvE PvP involves very skewed an unequal forces where one person in a group injecting wont change the outcome much (except perhaps when utilising ECM in small group play) its not a correct comparison so it should not be made.
The more relevant comparison to make is the one more likely to occur in the space being evaluated rather than the one which is engineered to best demonstrate your point.

And of course considering that there is no driving force in game to encourage equal match ups, nor is there a good measure of an equal match up by raw SP alone, the average "Joe" and "Jeff" make for terrible discussion points.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#256 - 2016-02-21 07:01:35 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
sero Hita wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Because like most games it was restricted. In WoW by time to level but more so the abilty to loot items. In EvE by time. Now its only limited by RL funds. All success in EvE is now skewed in favour of RL funds. While you can spend a few months to a few years to get the sane benefit you can also take out the CC and do it in minutes. Since player skill is available to all over time it becones an irrelevant consideration.

Ill give an example so we dont go back and forth arguing about inconsistencies - Joe and Jeff are average players. theyre in a system in null fighting. they engage and after an average fight using average skills Joe beats Jeff by a few HP. Jeff docks injects 10,000,000 SP he bought maxing cap, HP, and other core skills. He undocks and even though an identical fight takes place he has more HP cap etc and wins. Jeff won because he paid to win. simple


I don't think succes is skewed towards RL funds tbh. SPs matters little in exploration, mining and trading, it is more location location location. It matters more in production, but there you often also need a bigger setup, to make it profittable. So only buying SP will not do too much.

In combat it also matters little. Sure one can put up an example like yours, designed to only lead to your conclusion, but that leaves a lot of complexity you would encounter in New Eden. You leave out all the game mechanics one can use to counter this. There is no difference for a new player to encounter a 13 year old veteran with good playerskills or another player who bought the SP (unless the person who SP has less player skill). If we could kill the occational veteran when i started two years ago, I hypothesize that a new player today can also kill the occational vet or SP infused player, if using the right tools.
- group up and bait

- fly hard counters ( a crappy rock, will often beat a good scissor)

-be creative (I once killed a much beter pilot, flying a blingy confessor in a crappy fit belicose with three neuts, cap booster and drones. took me some time due to the crappy drone DPS, but he was not going anywere). With all the modules available one can make some interesting counters if one is creative.

TLDR: I think you are overestimating the effect of SP, as it is how you use them that counts. EVE is a big game, and not every player is a game god able to utilize this. Will there be some who can? yes, there will.

Will they affect me more than the 13 year old veterans do now? no.

Will everyone do an Ironbank? ofc not, most people lack the means. Besides having all the skills on one char does nothing, as you cannot do hauling, mining, ganking, exploring, fleeting, doing incursions and wormhole stuff all at once.

And if you have to be honest, outside of the forum crying, have you felt any effect of this Sp trading? I have not. And I am still training normally on my three 30 mill chars. I am not earning less, or dying more than usuall

SP matters little in exploration minng and trading?

I once took on a Proteus in an arranged duel with an armor tanked Raven fitted with heavy nuets n heavy missiles as that was all that was available in station. I would have eventually killed him had he not logged in an alt in a mega to save himself. I went to war with an entire alliance in their home system in null in a solo ASB Proteus and slaughtered them.

That does not mean that armor fitted HM Ravens or ASB Prots are ships that the average person should fly. Such situations are incapable of providing a meaningful comparison. They are unusual and sometimes the unusual works but on the average it does not.

When making a comparison the established method is to equalize both sides of the equation as in my example of Jeff and Joe. The only reliable to find out if Joe or Jeff can pay to win is to make Joe and Jeff average, with average skills and SP. When comparing that in same ships then adding SP to the equation we find it has a dramatic effect on the result proving you can pay to win.

While you are right that EvE PvP involves very skewed an unequal forces where one person in a group injecting wont change the outcome much (except perhaps when utilising ECM in small group play) its not a correct comparison so it should not be made.
The more relevant comparison to make is the one more likely to occur in the space being evaluated rather than the one which is engineered to best demonstrate your point.

And of course considering that there is no driving force in game to encourage equal match ups, nor is there a good measure of an equal match up by raw SP alone, the average "Joe" and "Jeff" make for terrible discussion points.

They make for the only discussion point. this thread is about The Individual Player buying skillpoints and whether that equats to pay to win. Deal with that.

If you were to say something like "I dont think its PTW because most PvP is group based and the affect of one person buying skillpoints would be offset by the arbitrary nature of PvP, skillpoint totals and player skill of the disparate groups" you might be getting somewhere reasonable but of course the nature of EvE is min maxing so that wont hold true for long. And again a group that has several perfect skilled PTW ECM boat pilots will school the group who hs a couple of naturally skilled ECM pilots still training up.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#257 - 2016-02-21 08:40:51 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
The more relevant comparison to make is the one more likely to occur in the space being evaluated rather than the one which is engineered to best demonstrate your point.

And of course considering that there is no driving force in game to encourage equal match ups, nor is there a good measure of an equal match up by raw SP alone, the average "Joe" and "Jeff" make for terrible discussion points.

They make for the only discussion point. this thread is about The Individual Player buying skillpoints and whether that equats to pay to win. Deal with that.

If you were to say something like "I dont think its PTW because most PvP is group based and the affect of one person buying skillpoints would be offset by the arbitrary nature of PvP, skillpoint totals and player skill of the disparate groups" you might be getting somewhere reasonable but of course the nature of EvE is min maxing so that wont hold true for long. And again a group that has several perfect skilled PTW ECM boat pilots will school the group who hs a couple of naturally skilled ECM pilots still training up.
So basically you want to ignore relevant comparisons about how it affects the game, and instead concentrate on your perfect scenario to create the negative impact you're so keen on insisting has been introduced? And further you're calling that the only discussion point?

If that's the only discussion point then this discussion isn't relevant to Eve. Maybe in some game with arranged closed battles between players in the same age bracket, but here it's meaningless and contrived.

As you yourself just pointed out battles will occur between differing levels of skill, ships, modules, numbers, SP and mechanics involved with or without skill trading. That's why this creates no change. That's the actual reality of the game rather than the perfect fantasy you're creating to prove a false point.

And the irony is that you seem to think the differing of SP invested into tools used is only now going to start creating rifts. It's been doing that for years. If you haven't been complaining of the disparity prior, why is it an issue now?

Further why don't those natural pilots have the option to earn isk and use injectors if their so often matched up against perfect pilots and giving themselves the same edge without paying a cent? Or is that possibility ignored because it doesn't fit your narrative?
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#258 - 2016-02-21 09:47:06 UTC  |  Edited by: sero Hita
Infinity Ziona wrote:

That does not mean that armor fitted HM Ravens or ASB Prots are ships that the average person should fly. Such situations are incapable of providing a meaningful comparison. They are unusual and sometimes the unusual works but on the average it does not.

When making a comparison the established method is to equalize both sides of the equation as in my example of Jeff and Joe. The only reliable to find out if Joe or Jeff can pay to win is to make Joe and Jeff average, with average skills and SP. When comparing that in same ships then adding SP to the equation we find it has a dramatic effect on the result proving you can pay to win.

It would be the established method to equalize both sides of the equation, if this was a scientific analysis of something quantifiable. For example the expression levels of gene x normalized to reference genes Y and Z in mutant and wildtype, measured by RT-qPCR for example. But that is not what we are doing here.

You made a very simplified observation about a complex system (Tranquility, which is full of players with in between 1 day to 13 years of SP). You want to use this statement to say something about how EVE will react to the SP injectors. You make the assumption that EVE is full of people with the same sp levels (that is what you do in your example), make a statement(guy with more sp wins) that is always true under these assumptions and then extrapolate to the more complex system tranquility, where the assumptions are not true anymore.

You are making a logical fallacy.

Ironically you make the same mistake CCP did, when they looked at the simple system Vet( not using SP injectors) and newbie using SP injector. In that case it is true that the newbie can catch up. On tranquility the assumption that the veteran is not using SP injector is obviously not true (SO they will first be equal when they have the same skills at the level V hardcap). It does not make CCPs initial statement untrue, it just does not apply to the situation on tranquility. This is the same for your statement.

On average a player will not fight another player with the exact same amount of SP, and then meet him again directly after he boosted SP in the same ship. Your example is too borderline to even consider.

And then lastly competing against a player with more SP is the reality of tranquility and has been since first few years. When I (2 years in EVE) fight another player it does not matter if the SP are bought at once (injector) or bought over many years by subscription or time/grind (PLEX). It is still the same difference and advantage in SP. So I again postulate that in a universe (tranquility), where there already are differences in SP (and will continue to be, even after introduction of injectors), the injectors will not bring along a challenge that is not already there to players who are not using injectors. So the netto change wil not be a big as you estimated. This combined with the size of EVE, relative to players, means you can always go to an area with less competition(If your current area is flodded with SP boosted chars) and earn enough to PLEX and PVP still.

TLDR: you are exaggerating the impact, based on a logical fallacy.

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
beakerax
Pator Tech School
#259 - 2016-02-21 09:51:11 UTC
Quote:
Avvy
Doomheim

skill injectors: not even once
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#260 - 2016-02-21 09:53:45 UTC
u3pog wrote:
What is the point of this thread or any other similar threads? The train has already left the station, enjoy the ride, it ain't going back.

P.S. When Citadels are out, people will focus their atttention on them and will forget worrying about the future of the game conserning skill injectors. It just takes time for the playerbase to adjust to such big changes. It will pass. Yes, some players might leave the train, others will hop in. EVE will survive as always. If someone should be pissed off, it's Dr.Caymus - he already adjusted to the changes, I suggest the rest of you do the same.


You've already been r*ped, what's the point to protest about it? Roll

Tip: because there is a future, and those who protest are in a better position to avoid a repetition than those who bear with it in silence.