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Worries about the skill injectors, and the future of the game.

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Vash Bloodstone
State War Academy
Caldari State
#221 - 2016-02-19 19:44:51 UTC
Hello, I have not commented much and I did not read every post here but I just wanted to post my thoughts.

Its seems many people here have forgotten this game is a sandbox. If you went to the beach, what would you rather look at, someone who piled 500 pounds of sand in a pile or someone who sculpted a miniature ship out of a small pile of about 1-2 pounds of sand? Skills by themselves are only as good as those who wield them. Just focusing on leveling skills is like piling sand into a formless pile that looks like crap. Why should we be so impressed by a big pile of sand just because there is more of it? Isn't the sculpture far more impressive?

In eve online, as you know, skill training is passive. If your only goal is to focus on your skills, then other a few things like buying implants, the only thing you will be doing is staring at your screen. In my opinion, if you do that, your playing eve poorly.

Another thing about the Skill Extractors that must be understood is that it is a trade-off. I know there are many 'rich' people in eve online, but I think people here are vastly over-estimating just how rich they are and just how many they are. I know I am just a poor lonely explorer who just struggles to survive, but ISK is not infinite. While there are many rich people, even they just they can't all easily drop all the ISK necessary to skill up, as they'd lose out.

Just think about all the things you can do for the price of one skill injector, about 600million ISK. Almost any activity you can do in eve online, whether its mining, exploring and pvp, would almost certainly benefit from having 600 million more ISK to spend with. Everything in eve online is a trade-off. If you decide to spend billions on SKillpoints, than thats billions of ISK less for Ships, modules and etc. And isn't the whole point of having skills in the first place so you can do all the cool things you want to do in Eve online? All you gotta do is look at the marketplace and see how many people are selling. All the people selling want the ISK more they want the skills. Because they know the ISK will take them farther.


And yes, I understand that the injection of real money from the real world in order to gobble up skill-points may concern some people, but it's still a trade-off. Being worried about someone using all their resources to buy skill points is like being worried about someone piling big piles of sand on a beach. It's really not a concern, and you ought to focus on doing something with your own sand instead. If you think eve online is about who has the 'biggest pile' of sand, than I don't think your going to have a good time, and also, your going to lose....Isn't eve online a lot more than just gaining sp?
Conrad Makbure
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#222 - 2016-02-19 20:08:52 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Demolishar wrote:
Almost 3000 words. A pity that your great work will be locked for ranting soon.


I don't really think this is a rant to be honest, and many of these points were discussed internally before the feature went live, or was fully fleshed out.

I've also been with EVE for 13 years, ironically my first reaction to skillpoint trading was negative too, but it was a knee-jerk reaction from a 13 year veteran of the game who thought a change so fundamental would destroy everything he loved about EVE.

I'm happy to say that I was wrong, and after I looked at the situation from what I consider to be a sensible point of view that came after my initial reaction, the rationale for it kind of fell into place and I now understand the system.

There's a simple flaw with any "Pay To Win" argument against skill trading.

A pilot who knows what they're doing with a Rifter and a 2 skillpoints can end the world for a clueless player with 300 million skillpoints. Put the average driver in an F1 car and they're not going to have the first idea of how to drive it, despite having a driver's license.

All skillpoints do is unlock the ability to fly a given hull with a given weapon, or utilize a given module to a particular end. Using the ship and modules is where the skill lies, and is the key to victory or failure. That's what defines you as an EVE player.

Being able to trade skillpoints and freely respec your character changes very little. What it does is allow people to keep their gameplay fresh and try new things, or gives new players a leg up to be able to try new things faster if they choose to do so.

That's my take on it anyway, as a 13 year vet of EVE.

Smile



This. With respect to the quoted, you devs should look to the future more with big changes like skill injectors and don't even ask how it would fit with EVE 13 years ago, only focus moving forward. This game needs big change it many areas still
stg slate
State War Academy
Caldari State
#223 - 2016-02-19 20:15:50 UTC
Conrad Makbure wrote:

This. With respect to the quoted, you devs should look to the future more with big changes like skill injectors and don't even ask how it would fit with EVE 13 years ago, only focus moving forward. This game needs big change it many areas still


Agreed.

The problem with having an older player-base overall is you have people who have reached a low enough point in their lives that all they can do is look back on the past and remember the 'good ole days'.

They fight against any progress because 'it isn't how it was 13 years ago', or 'the original CCP would never have done that', or 'this isn't the sort of thing we've done in EVE before', or 'This might attract the wrong sort of people'.

EVE needs to change to stay relevant; we can't just give it a walker and put it in a home and visit it on holidays.

It needs to adapt and be fluid and get people to try it out and to stay past the 7 month mark.

Nostalgia and stagnation don't work for MMOs.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#224 - 2016-02-19 21:50:58 UTC
stg slate wrote:
Conrad Makbure wrote:

This. With respect to the quoted, you devs should look to the future more with big changes like skill injectors and don't even ask how it would fit with EVE 13 years ago, only focus moving forward. This game needs big change it many areas still


Agreed.

The problem with having an older player-base overall is you have people who have reached a low enough point in their lives that all they can do is look back on the past and remember the 'good ole days'.

They fight against any progress because 'it isn't how it was 13 years ago', or 'the original CCP would never have done that', or 'this isn't the sort of thing we've done in EVE before', or 'This might attract the wrong sort of people'.

EVE needs to change to stay relevant; we can't just give it a walker and put it in a home and visit it on holidays.

It needs to adapt and be fluid and get people to try it out and to stay past the 7 month mark.

Nostalgia and stagnation don't work for MMOs.


Well, getting high on heroin is a big change. But not a good one.
Reiisha
#225 - 2016-02-19 22:28:55 UTC
I do hope people actually find a way to read my entire post(s) and not just the skill extractor/injector parts :/

There's still the issue of alts, active vs passive systems and the lack of any real development in the last 4-5 years.

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...
StonerPhReaK
Herb Men
#226 - 2016-02-19 23:49:04 UTC
Injectors/Extractors went from a rumor to being in-game in like 2 weeks. Seriously. It was like ccp leaked the rumor to see how the playerbase would react, A monocle-gate revolt never happened so they went forward. Sad to see such a company shoot from the hip faster than dudes from old westerns. I have now decided to halt further skillplans and save rl cash and just use injectors with my 'old isk' when a new skill is needed to level 5. Stockpiled plex will fuel my account until the well dries up when i think i have time to play instead of just keeping the account sub'd with rl isk. $15/month ($45 when i ran three of me) is and never was a burden on my wallet, but i kept it goin because of skilltraining. Now it isnt needed so time and money saved on my part. I guess thats a win. Right?


In response to alt-a-geddon. The need for alts has decreased drastically over the last two years. For the good imo as well. (mobile depot/savage drones) What used to take me two-three alts to do can be done by me alone now. (think Noctis alt) However, alts as scouts will always be needed and without boring some new chap to death said work should be relegated to an alt.


You hit the evil of passivity that has plagued nullsec (moon-goo) and nearly everywhere else right on the head (P.I.). Death to anything passive, Autopilot, PI, Mining (both moon and roid). Makes for lazy gameplay if you ask me, and could add fuel to fire content up to the extreme if these areas actually required someone to play.


Over the last few years new ships and modules along with tiercide and ship rebalancing has brought tons of new content and 'shiny stuff' to the game. Maybe not in your area of gameplay. But plenty has been added/reworked/retextured. And plenty more seem to be in the works (Sov/Structure/Station) which sheds some light down the tunnel that i hope brings the spark back that made me want to play.

My marijuana induced psychosis may make this read a bit wierd to which i apologize. Tried to reply to all of your points and generally agree on most parts.

Signatures wer cooler when we couldn't remove them completely.
Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#227 - 2016-02-20 00:33:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Khergit Deserters
For your consideration:
'Cortex' A fiction story by a CSM member, written around November 2015, premised around skill extraction/injection. For it or against it? Seems against to me, but you can judge for yourself.

(By the way, an excellent piece of writing, IMO. And also in the opinion of a panel of well-known judges. Space politics/opinions aside, worth reading).
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#228 - 2016-02-20 00:49:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Conrad Makbure wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Demolishar wrote:
Almost 3000 words. A pity that your great work will be locked for ranting soon.


I don't really think this is a rant to be honest, and many of these points were discussed internally before the feature went live, or was fully fleshed out.

I've also been with EVE for 13 years, ironically my first reaction to skillpoint trading was negative too, but it was a knee-jerk reaction from a 13 year veteran of the game who thought a change so fundamental would destroy everything he loved about EVE.

I'm happy to say that I was wrong, and after I looked at the situation from what I consider to be a sensible point of view that came after my initial reaction, the rationale for it kind of fell into place and I now understand the system.

There's a simple flaw with any "Pay To Win" argument against skill trading.

A pilot who knows what they're doing with a Rifter and a 2 skillpoints can end the world for a clueless player with 300 million skillpoints. Put the average driver in an F1 car and they're not going to have the first idea of how to drive it, despite having a driver's license.

All skillpoints do is unlock the ability to fly a given hull with a given weapon, or utilize a given module to a particular end. Using the ship and modules is where the skill lies, and is the key to victory or failure. That's what defines you as an EVE player.

Being able to trade skillpoints and freely respec your character changes very little. What it does is allow people to keep their gameplay fresh and try new things, or gives new players a leg up to be able to try new things faster if they choose to do so.

That's my take on it anyway, as a 13 year vet of EVE.

Smile



This. With respect to the quoted, you devs should look to the future more with big changes like skill injectors and don't even ask how it would fit with EVE 13 years ago, only focus moving forward. This game needs big change it many areas still

Skillpoints dont only allow ship piloting. theyre a huge buff to your character. In EvE we dont have buffs like mana regeneraters, HP boosts, etc etc we have skills which do the exact same thing. Buying skillpoints means you have a permanent fully buffed character 24/7 - DT. thats not pat to win I dont know what is

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#229 - 2016-02-20 01:10:10 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Skillpoints dont only allow ship piloting. theyre a huge buff to your character. In EvE we dont have buffs like mana regeneraters, HP boosts, etc etc we have skills which do the exact same thing. Buying skillpoints means you have a permanent fully buffed character 24/7 - DT. thats not pat to win I dont know what is
That's inherent to the skill system itself, not skill trading specifically. If the advantages gained by SP are too big a buff to be allowed that means the skill system itself is flawed. That doesn't need an all max character to manifest either. Simply maxing a single ship fit achieves the same effective advantage situationally.

So why are these abilities only now winning?
Osmonde Jr
Mission Running Slaves
#230 - 2016-02-20 01:36:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Osmonde Jr
Reiisha wrote:
I do hope people actually find a way to read my entire post(s) and not just the skill extractor/injector parts :/

There's still the issue of alts, active vs passive systems and the lack of any real development in the last 4-5 years.


Well I read your entire rant and for the most part, it was well written, but pointless to read other then maybe the null sec mechanic (as I just gotten back and so I can't really comment on that or make a informed opinion). So if people skipped it, I can't blame them as part of it is in hysteria like many posts I have seen and full of holes from my point of view.

Also, it is just full of nostalgia which makes everything more subjective as to why skill injectors are a negative and I am still waiting for someone to give me something some very good reasons.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#231 - 2016-02-20 01:51:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Skillpoints dont only allow ship piloting. theyre a huge buff to your character. In EvE we dont have buffs like mana regeneraters, HP boosts, etc etc we have skills which do the exact same thing. Buying skillpoints means you have a permanent fully buffed character 24/7 - DT. thats not pat to win I dont know what is
That's inherent to the skill system itself, not skill trading specifically. If the advantages gained by SP are too big a buff to be allowed that means the skill system itself is flawed. That doesn't need an all max character to manifest either. Simply maxing a single ship fit achieves the same effective advantage situationally.

So why are these abilities only now winning?

Because like most games it was restricted. In WoW by time to level but more so the abilty to loot items. In EvE by time. Now its only limited by RL funds. All success in EvE is now skewed in favour of RL funds. While you can spend a few months to a few years to get the sane benefit you can also take out the CC and do it in minutes. Since player skill is available to all over time it becones an irrelevant consideration.

Ill give an example so we dont go back and forth arguing about inconsistencies - Joe and Jeff are average players. theyre in a system in null fighting. they engage and after an average fight using average skills Joe beats Jeff by a few HP. Jeff docks injects 10,000,000 SP he bought maxing cap, HP, and other core skills. He undocks and even though an identical fight takes place he has more HP cap etc and wins. Jeff won because he paid to win. simple

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Soltys
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#232 - 2016-02-20 01:54:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Soltys
CCP Falcon wrote:
There's a simple flaw with any "Pay To Win" argument against skill trading.

A pilot who knows what they're doing with a Rifter and a 2 skillpoints can end the world for a clueless player with 300 million skillpoints. Put the average driver in an F1 car and they're not going to have the first idea of how to drive it, despite having a driver's license.

All skillpoints do is unlock the ability to fly a given hull with a given weapon, or utilize a given module to a particular end. Using the ship and modules is where the skill lies, and is the key to victory or failure. That's what defines you as an EVE player.

Being able to trade skillpoints and freely respec your character changes very little. What it does is allow people to keep their gameplay fresh and try new things, or gives new players a leg up to be able to try new things faster if they choose to do so.

That's my take on it anyway, as a 13 year vet of EVE.

Smile


While I generally agree with this viewpoint (and was in favore of this idea since the beginnig), what is saddening in all this:

- you went with full-desperate-publisher-EA-pricing model for extractors; it's seriously pathetic - and the word "micro" must have collectively disappeared from CCP's vocabluary
- with brutal diminishing returns (80%/60%/30%)
- any sentence mentioning something about new players is a hypocritical bullshit through and through; unless the aim was just to be a blatant whale bait - but that's really the "newbros" (with attention span of a cellphone gamer) you should be rather avoiding

First 2 points also position any "reallocate your skillpoints !" advertisement between a scam and a hypocrisy.

Not that I cynically care much, as a trader I'm enjoying (and pretty much everyone else doing heavy trading) this new "plex" quite a bit. Both from the perspective of a trading income as well as a personal crack. Then again "we" ([bitter]vets) can just brute-force this with raw ISK without bating an eyelid. Most of the players unlikely can (not mentioning "newbros"), whales aside.

And that's what leaves truly bitter taste in the mouth. Not the good concept, but the final greed-fueled execution.

Jita Flipping Inc.: Kovl & Kuvl
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#233 - 2016-02-20 02:06:19 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Because like most games it was restricted. In WoW by time to level but more so the abilty to loot items. In EvE by time. Now its only limited by RL funds. All success in EvE is now skewed in favour of RL funds. While you can spend a few months to a few years to get the sane benefit you can also take out the CC and do it in minutes. Since player skill is available to all over time it becones an irrelevant consideration.
Wait, the advantage is better because of a time gate? So for doing nothing but paying a sub for a while, and possibly quite a long while, you're suddenly more deserving of these advantages?

And if success is somehow skewed by RL funds how is it that the first max character didn't use any? And how did all the trained SP granting these advantages to other players over the years suddenly stop counting?

And no, player skill becomes more relevant because SP gaps can be closed if we're using the reasoning that SP is such a significant advantage.
Memphis Baas
#234 - 2016-02-20 02:22:09 UTC
Reiisha wrote:
I do hope people actually find a way to read my entire post(s) and not just the skill extractor/injector parts :/
There's still the issue of alts, active vs passive systems and the lack of any real development in the last 4-5 years.


Lack of development:

I agree that CCP isn't doing as much as we'd like (and as much as is possible) to improve EVE, and you are right that the things that were introduced were basically pilot programs that never got expanded to their intended, fully featured stage. But you are not getting the concept of the game, and some of the things you are asking for are impossible. Need to go through your other points in order to illustrate what I mean with this, though. So...

Exploration

CCP would have to implement a continuous stream of hand-crafted areas to satisfy our inner explorer, and this conflicts with their concept for this game, which is to minimize developer effort by only coding the tools (ships, starbases) and to otherwise let players generate the content. The wormhole space is procedurally-generated; once you've seen the few different wormhole space effects (wolf-rayet etc) you've seen them all - no way this is an exploration game. It can't be.

Active vs. Passive Systems

Personally I don't want to be playing pointless minigames in order to produce, mine, or gather resources. You're asking for "active, interaction, but most importantly FUN" systems, which is an impossibility as no AI or script can keep up with a human bent on repetitive clicking and min-maxing profits. All the games out there that have attempted to make the basic activities "interactive, but fun" have resulted in pointless annoying mini-games. Do you consider hacking fun? It's just a roadblock to getting the loot. Do you consider the system they had, where containers would burst out of the site, and we had to loot as many as possible (4 - 5 out of 20) before they vanished, fun? Universally hated. Minigames suck.

Gathering activities are gathering activities; they're boring. Trying to make them "fun" with some scripted mini-game will not work. Fun comes from player vs. player interaction, everything else in this game is a chore necessary to achieve that, and CCP should try to make these less of a chore rather than more. Imagine having to play win a minigame to turn on the water and/or access the scrubby to wash dishes. I wouldn't consider that "fun."

Alts

It is unfortunate, but this game lets us create characters, like any other game, so people expect to have multiple characters. It takes quite a bit of explaining, in Newbie Questions / Answers, that a character here is equivalent to a whole account full of warriors, mages, rogues, and priests in other games. Multiple characters are a reality that cannot be removed from this game, and your solution of:

- keeping us online longer, mired in trying to solve minigames for "active" systems of gathering
- reduce CCP's earnings

is unfortunately much less likely to happen that what CCP has already done:
- balance the gathering professions with the expectation that alts exist (limits on the number of production lines, planets, etc.)
- let alts exist

Looking at how many characters are trained per account, it's not "everyone trains all 3"; people do make choices to train only 1 or 1 main + a couple slightly-trained alts... and it doesn't even matter what they do as long as some choice is available.

The Economy

Yes, a huge amount of ISK has been accumulated in the game, BUT you fail to equate "character who has 1 trillion ISK" with "1 trillion ISK has been removed from the economy, temporarily". I believe it's been mentioned in this thread already: PLEX prices have increased from 300M ISK to 1.2B over the past few years, but ship and module prices have not. Mineral and production prices have not increased. Trillions sit in wallets and don't participate in the economy.

As far as sinks, it's easy to say "create more sinks", and very difficult to actually create sinks that players will be willing to pay and not hate CCP for / quit the game over. It's even more difficult to somehow target the trillions of ISK sitting in rich wallets without making it impossible for poor newbies to function.

And it's pointless. Again, mineral prices, ship prices, module prices, everything is stable and cheap. Clearly the trillions are not affecting the economy.

Conclusion

Procedurally-generated content, and the concept of just providing ships as tools and letting us create the fun, are core restrictions of this game. Can't ask CCP to create more fun, they can only create more toys for us; we're responsible for creating the fun. More heavily scripted / mini-gamed ways to interact with the various activities aren't "fun" for a lot of people.

You're asking to change the game from the sandbox that it is, to a more scripted themepark MMO. New unique (hand-crafted) areas to explore, more scripted ("less boring") missions, mining, industry, and other basic activities, and artificial restrictions to keep us online longer that somehow also have to magically be "fun" for everybody... this is not possible. "Fun" in this game is player vs. player interactions; that's why we've been playing, since 2003. Not scripted PVE .

Nothing prevents us from playing the themepark MMO's if we want good scripted PVE, so by extension why should CCP bother to add all that stuff when it's already available (elsewhere)? Why would Taco Bell add burgers to its menu, KFC burritos and tacos, and so on? Doesn't make sense.

You ARE asking CCP to change the game at its core. Much like many newbies who come to the forums with suggestions to make this game more like WoW.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#235 - 2016-02-20 03:03:55 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Because like most games it was restricted. In WoW by time to level but more so the abilty to loot items. In EvE by time. Now its only limited by RL funds. All success in EvE is now skewed in favour of RL funds. While you can spend a few months to a few years to get the sane benefit you can also take out the CC and do it in minutes. Since player skill is available to all over time it becones an irrelevant consideration.
Wait, the advantage is better because of a time gate? So for doing nothing but paying a sub for a while, and possibly quite a long while, you're suddenly more deserving of these advantages?

And if success is somehow skewed by RL funds how is it that the first max character didn't use any? And how did all the trained SP granting these advantages to other players over the years suddenly stop counting?

And no, player skill becomes more relevant because SP gaps can be closed if we're using the reasoning that SP is such a significant advantage.

Your arguments dont make sense. You postulate that timesinks are irrelevant so doing away with them through paying is not pay to win. If they were irrelevant prople would not being paying to bypass them. You make a strawman argument stating the first player to max didnt pay for isk without evidence of that and further ignore the fact that the average player doesnt have access to trillions of isk without paying for it with cash.

You make another strawman argument by suggesting that players such as myself, with 13 years in game, are going to have their SP made redundant when its the average player with 1 day to 2 years who are nowhere near maxed skilled are the ones destined to lose most to the SP purchasers.

And finally if, like myself, you had vast experience of engaging players with less SP you would realise that having core skills filled is a massive buff.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Shallanna Yassavi
qwertz corp
#236 - 2016-02-20 03:42:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Shallanna Yassavi
Relevant.

Specifically:
Quote:
- the current "real-time training system" allows a player to improve over time without having to perform activities he/she does not wish to do.

And that player still can.
The trap this new system will drop a lot of newbies into is this: they think they have to grind out ISK to buy injectors, and that they need injectors. A vet with a new face knows how. A newbie won't know any better, and will probably treat the game like every other MMO: start with the mining and the missions until you get ISK to buy an injector-and repeat.
If the aim is to engage the new player in the sandbox with other players, this is not the result we're looking for.

Edit: As someone who has played an EVE-like with active skill grinding, this was incredibly stupid.

A signature :o
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#237 - 2016-02-20 04:14:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Wait, the advantage is better because of a time gate? So for doing nothing but paying a sub for a while, and possibly quite a long while, you're suddenly more deserving of these advantages?

And if success is somehow skewed by RL funds how is it that the first max character didn't use any? And how did all the trained SP granting these advantages to other players over the years suddenly stop counting?

And no, player skill becomes more relevant because SP gaps can be closed if we're using the reasoning that SP is such a significant advantage.

Your arguments dont make sense. You postulate that timesinks are irrelevant so doing away with them through paying is not pay to win. If they were irrelevant prople would not being paying to bypass them. You make a strawman argument stating the first player to max didnt pay for isk without evidence of that and further ignore the fact that the average player doesnt have access to trillions of isk without paying for it with cash.

You make another strawman argument by suggesting that players such as myself, with 13 years in game, are going to have their SP made redundant when its the average player with 1 day to 2 years who are nowhere near maxed skilled are the ones destined to lose most to the SP purchasers.

And finally if, like myself, you had vast experience of engaging players with less SP you would realise that having core skills filled is a massive buff.
You've missed the core argument, which is that skills clearly have to grant acceptable advantages or unacceptable advantages. Time gating them obviously doesn't change the advantages themselves, so clearly a time gate can't make it ok. So yes, a timesink is clearly irrelevant regarding whether skills are "winning" or not.

And no, the fact that the first player to reach the absolute peak did not use cash isn't a strawman in the face of the claim "All success in EvE is now skewed in favour of RL funds." The maximum possible grantable benefits of the system have first been conferred to a player who did not use those means. That you or anyone else can't simply means that you lacked the skill to do so. And like everything else in game, should you not be able to manipulate the game to get the isk for it you simply cannot have it. That doesn't make it unfair. That's the entire point of having ingame currency.

The next strawman argument you're trying to point to is something you have somehow imagined into existence because it's not based on anything I presented. SP cannot be made redundant because it only exists and confers unique benefits to single characters.

You're also apparently trying to paint a picture of average which would mean the game effectively churns it's entire active player base every 2 days to 4 years. Further that has nothing to do with the fact that those advantages are already conferred to players well beyond this "average." This does nothing to create a new advantage against them as that already existed.

Yet somehow you still argue the advantages of SP are too strong to trade, but fair enough have on top of insinuating the means of gaining them is real money, which it actually isn't.
Osmonde Jr
Mission Running Slaves
#238 - 2016-02-20 06:50:31 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Wait, the advantage is better because of a time gate? So for doing nothing but paying a sub for a while, and possibly quite a long while, you're suddenly more deserving of these advantages?

And if success is somehow skewed by RL funds how is it that the first max character didn't use any? And how did all the trained SP granting these advantages to other players over the years suddenly stop counting?

And no, player skill becomes more relevant because SP gaps can be closed if we're using the reasoning that SP is such a significant advantage.

Your arguments dont make sense. You postulate that timesinks are irrelevant so doing away with them through paying is not pay to win. If they were irrelevant prople would not being paying to bypass them. You make a strawman argument stating the first player to max didnt pay for isk without evidence of that and further ignore the fact that the average player doesnt have access to trillions of isk without paying for it with cash.

You make another strawman argument by suggesting that players such as myself, with 13 years in game, are going to have their SP made redundant when its the average player with 1 day to 2 years who are nowhere near maxed skilled are the ones destined to lose most to the SP purchasers.

And finally if, like myself, you had vast experience of engaging players with less SP you would realise that having core skills filled is a massive buff.
You've missed the core argument, which is that skills clearly have to grant acceptable advantages or unacceptable advantages. Time gating them obviously doesn't change the advantages themselves, so clearly a time gate can't make it ok. So yes, a timesink is clearly irrelevant regarding whether skills are "winning" or not.

And no, the fact that the first player to reach the absolute peak did not use cash isn't a strawman in the face of the claim "All success in EvE is now skewed in favour of RL funds." The maximum possible grantable benefits of the system have first been conferred to a player who did not use those means. That you or anyone else can't simply means that you lacked the skill to do so. And like everything else in game, should you not be able to manipulate the game to get the isk for it you simply cannot have it. That doesn't make it unfair. That's the entire point of having ingame currency.

The next strawman argument you're trying to point to is something you have somehow imagined into existence because it's not based on anything I presented. SP cannot be made redundant because it only exists and confers unique benefits to single characters.

You're also apparently trying to paint a picture of average which would mean the game effectively churns it's entire active player base every 2 days to 4 years. Further that has nothing to do with the fact that those advantages are already conferred to players well beyond this "average." This does nothing to create a new advantage against them as that already existed.

Yet somehow you still argue the advantages of SP are too strong to trade, but fair enough have on top of insinuating the means of gaining them is real money, which it actually isn't.


I don't know why you attempt when these p2w arguments assume that every new player they encounter is going to drop at least over $700 to reach 60 million sp. A lot these posts are really "Fear, uncertainty, and doubt".
Daerrol
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#239 - 2016-02-20 07:12:35 UTC
I totally disagree with this. New players have always had a Pay to Skillpoint place, the character Bazaar. Even after the changes, Char Bazaar is MUCH cheaper IRL than dropping tons of PLEX on extrators. There are 200M SP characters on that thing, so you totally can already pay to skill. It's been with EVE for years, it's not new.
IlIIlIIIlllIlIllIIIIll
Doomheim
#240 - 2016-02-20 08:50:59 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
[quote=
There's a simple flaw with any "Pay To Win" argument against skill trading.

A pilot who knows what they're doing with a Rifter and a 2 skillpoints can end the world for a clueless player with 300 million skillpoints. Put the average driver in an F1 car and they're not going to have the first idea of how to drive it, despite having a driver's license.


Sell gold ammo then, it's not because you have gold ammo that you can aim.
Make plex buyable solar systems sovereignty too, it's not because you can buy them that you can defend them.
Sell purple item the same way ? It's not because i can buy them that i know how to play with them.