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Always able to run? And no Concord? Unknowable missions?

First post
Author
Poddington Bare
Black Mount Industrial
#41 - 2016-02-15 18:22:06 UTC
Fa Xian wrote:
It's not about what I like. It's about what you might like more.


Sweet Gorilla of Manila. Really?

This whole thread is beginning to look like a really bad acid flashback.
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#42 - 2016-02-15 18:26:53 UTC
But your suggestion would not get me more fun. My fights happen with or without points. So removal changes little. You would be wasting a vast amount of development time on balancing out the idea which could be spent on developing new ships and modules which would increase my fun. So why?

Also, there are ways to kill a ship before it runs. It's using ships that may have low damage per second but do high volley damage. In EVE, this is called Alpha damage. It is a common fleet design concept in nul or other groups who want to kill ships before repairs from logi ships land. By removing points, people would just opt for more alpha fleets, which work better the more numbers people hav3. In the end, you just see N+ scenarios where the fleet with the biggest numbers win and EVE becomes a race to join the largest group only. That doesn't strike me as fun or leading to more fun for all. That is just dull blobbing to win. Why encourage that?
Fa Xian
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2016-02-15 18:28:11 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
There are myriad ways to break an application, or prevent a reapplication, including pulling range, neuting them out, or using ECM (burst, standard, or drone), and, where applicable, session changing. You can also negate them through the use of warp core stabilizers.


I suppose. People like their chess match strategy. I guess I'd like more tactics. Less decision at undock, more in space.

More chance based things would be more dramatic.

Fa Xian
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2016-02-15 18:30:26 UTC
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
In the end, you just see N+ scenarios...


I see a lot of assertions that that is already true.
Poddington Bare
Black Mount Industrial
#45 - 2016-02-15 18:30:51 UTC
Fa Xian wrote:
More chance based things would be more dramatic.


You mean infuriating.

I don't mind being beaten by a better player. But to be beaten by a CCP coin-toss...no thanks.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#46 - 2016-02-15 18:50:31 UTC
TL;DR: OP wants Eve to be nerfed again, wonders why people disagree with him.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#47 - 2016-02-15 18:52:03 UTC
Poddington Bare wrote:
Fa Xian wrote:
More chance based things would be more dramatic.


You mean infuriating.

I don't mind being beaten by a better player. But to be beaten by a CCP coin-toss...no thanks.


And yet I bet you will agree with that being done to ECM, in fact its not a coin toss there is actually an algorithm in it that will on a random base prevent all ECM from working on all jammers so the player being jammed has the feeling he can actually fire back.

Fa Xian,

Welcome to the Eve forums, when you post here I will advise you anything that goes against certain peoples belief on what Eve is will result in a savage reaction.

You will be told you are useless, I see they did that above. You will be ridiculed, you be told that you are on meds or something else like that, then some lame twit will come along and war dec you to be cheered on by other ladies, its how Eve is.

You might even be honoured by Jenn who will tell you how stupid you are and how wonderful she is doing level 4's and then you will have won Eve forums. Its kinda fun if you like that sort of thing.

I respect you for coming on here and having a go, most people have one pass and think its a complete waste of time and don't bother.

One issue is that CCP devs hardly read the forums at all, so any good ideas on Eve forums are wasted, it is sadly how it is.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#48 - 2016-02-15 18:55:55 UTC
Fa Xian wrote:
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
In the end, you just see N+ scenarios...


I see a lot of assertions that that is already true.


But it is not. With points, I can hold an enemy fleet in space. This allows those on my side who lost ships a chance to return to the fight. The enemy may as well, but this then begins to divert into a strategic fight. It becomes a matter of who can hold the field longer, who has resources (more ships to lose), who has the better logistics and such. Claiming territory/having your base or staging area near the fight starts to matter, which in turn leads to more strategy as people fight to be based out the area with best resources or easier logistic support.

With no points, you get nothing but guerrilla warfare. Ships warp in, pop a target and go. There's little defense against it and the game grows stale. Heck... Look at some of the biggest fights. They occured because a mistake was made, someone held a target in Space using some form of warp disrupt, and the big fight to either save that target or kill it ensued.

Now think about titans... Under your system, they would almost never die. To alpha one would take multiple other titans. You would not see smaller groups kill them because they could always run. How is having the biggest ship in game unkillable unless blogged by more titans be any fun?
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#49 - 2016-02-15 19:00:08 UTC
Fa Xian wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
There are myriad ways to break an application, or prevent a reapplication, including pulling range, neuting them out, or using ECM (burst, standard, or drone), and, where applicable, session changing. You can also negate them through the use of warp core stabilizers.


I suppose. People like their chess match strategy. I guess I'd like more tactics. Less decision at undock, more in space.

More chance based things would be more dramatic.



Which brings us to why I asked about your PvP experience, as, in reality, both can be significant factors. What you undock in should generally influence the tactics you employ in space.

You're probably not going to be boomeranging anyone in a Nereus, so you neeed to be cautious up front: Watch local, d-scan, employ scouts, cloak and MWD, etc.

You can't undock completely unprepared to deal with anything, blindly blunder into your worst-case-scenario, and then expect the game to essentially grant you invulnerability because you employed the clever tactic of clicking the warp button.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Poddington Bare
Black Mount Industrial
#50 - 2016-02-15 19:04:58 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
So much bitter.


Oh my.

If I had your passive-aggressive mental health problems and obvious issues with the Eve forums...I'd avoid the Eve forums.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#51 - 2016-02-15 19:11:26 UTC
Poddington Bare wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
So much bitter.


Oh my.

If I had your passive-aggressive mental health problems and obvious issues with the Eve forums...I'd avoid the Eve forums.


There you go an example of are you taking your meds, so predictable... Go to page two and see the insults directed at the OP, but that is normal for the Eve forums. Also I don't report things that hurt my feelings, I would not even report your post, but I bet one of you lot will report my earlier post.

Lady Ayeipsia,

Look at the recent fight in Jan over a tower, a chance based point would have made little difference to the butchers bill on that strategic fight over a moon. Just a few less deaths when people decided that they were losing

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Fa Xian
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2016-02-15 19:11:52 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
You can't undock completely unprepared ...


My recent loss is only the starting point for thinking about it.

Honestly, there's so much whining on these forums you can't get any signal through the noise.

Do I sound upset about my loss? I should have a transcript of chat with a corpmate. I'll tell you now what I said then.

I probably made their night. I saw it coming and jumped anyway. To see if they'd catch me - they're lucky they did. The two I saw had 3 more on the other side of the gate. I even tried to dump my 700m cargo so it would not be half destroyed and someone would get it.

After, all I could think about was how lame their game choice was. Sitting on a gate. Hoping. And jump on a hauler. Which likely would be empty and no challenge. Nothing to brag about in corp chat. Well, now they have at least loot to enjoy from it. But they didn't get a fight. Neither did I.

We could have saved everyone time by my just sending them money. Then they could go enjoy some real PVP.

That loss is not me here crying about it.

It's me here crying about how lame the entire situation was. Mostly for them.
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#53 - 2016-02-15 19:15:20 UTC
Since the patch, it's funny that everyone seems to not only think they have the answers to all of EVE's woes, they also believe that GD is a more appropriate place to post suggestions than Features and Ideas.


In any event, apologies but this is a pretty bad set of ideas that runs counter to the ethos of EVE. It might be fine in the games you design, but they are certainly not appropriate here.

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log

Annemariela Antonela
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2016-02-15 19:18:24 UTC
Furious Timewaster of a read.

Three thumbs down.

“Culture is like a smog. To live within it, you must breathe some of it in and, inevitably, be contaminated.”

― Richard K. Morgan, Altered Carbon

Fa Xian
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2016-02-15 19:18:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Fa Xian
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
With points, I can hold an enemy fleet in space.


Interesting point about it being an escalation tool.

A lot of times I don't think it works out that way. Fights seem too small and too short to be opportunities to escalate, but then I dont do fleets of dozens in null.

But it's a good point.

I'm just suggesting I'd rather see fighting over territory, assets. But if fights could be long enough to allow escalation, that'd be good too.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#56 - 2016-02-15 19:20:48 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Fa Xian wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
You can't undock completely unprepared ...


My recent loss is only the starting point for thinking about it.

Honestly, there's so much whining on these forums you can't get any signal through the noise.

Do I sound upset about my loss? I should have a transcript of chat with a corpmate. I'll tell you now what I said then.

I probably made their night. I saw it coming and jumped anyway. To see if they'd catch me - they're lucky they did. The two I saw had 3 more on the other side of the gate. I even tried to dump my 700m cargo so it would not be half destroyed and someone would get it.

After, all I could think about was how lame their game choice was. Sitting on a gate. Hoping. And jump on a hauler. Which likely would be empty and no challenge. Nothing to brag about in corp chat. Well, now they have at least loot to enjoy from it. But they didn't get a fight. Neither did I.

We could have saved everyone time by my just sending them money. Then they could go enjoy some real PVP.

That loss is not me here crying about it.

It's me here crying about how lame the entire situation was. Mostly for them.


What do your feelings have to do with anything?

From a strategic perspective, you undocked in a poorly fit ship.

You then blundered into a gatecamp.

You just said:

Quote:
People like their chess match strategy. I guess I'd like more tactics. Less decision at undock, more in space.


You would like more tactics. Fine. What tactics did you actually employ? It seems pretty disingenuous to say, "I would like more tactics," and then claim that you basically intentionally suicided yourself into a gatecamp.

I feel fairly confident in saying that, had I been piloting that Nereus, even poorly fit as it is, it would not have died.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#57 - 2016-02-15 19:21:48 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
[You will be told you are useless, I see they did that above. You will be ridiculed, you be told that you are on meds or something else like that, then some lame twit will come along and war dec you to be cheered on by other ladies, its how Eve is.





...also, welcome to the forums, where a small subset of the player-base are tiny-brained misogynists like Dracvlad.


What a barleyjack.

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log

Fa Xian
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2016-02-15 19:28:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Fa Xian
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
[You would like more tactics. Fine. What tactics did you actually employ? It seems pretty disingenuous to say, "I would like more tactics," and then claim that you basically intentionally suicided yourself into a gatecamp.


I was in a fine ship. 3 stabs. Heavy tank. Drones, gun, neut. But you can only do so much. 5 to 1 and it's my fit, eh?

The only tactic was to turn back when I saw them on the near gate side. The only tactical option was to turn back. I gambled it was two; it was FW space, and large groups are rare. They attract fights. To be fair,, they probably were hunting, not camping. I didn't stick around to chit chat. No need to add a pod to the list.

I was ready for a fight to escape. You're right. I should not escape that. They didn't need stabs really anyway... It only took 3 volleys to end it.

But it is as I said, not really about my loss. That was inspirational. Not the point. Indeed, points (disrupt) aren't the end of the point (idea).
Fa Xian
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2016-02-15 19:36:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Fa Xian
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
... then claim that you basically intentionally suicided yourself into a gatecamp.


To be clear, I took my chances against what could have been two, turned out to be 5. I also made the tactical decision to give them 2 minutes after they jumped to follow them, expecting if they weren't camping they'd likely be gone by then. It is rare for people in low to hang on a gate.

So; tactical? Jump or not. Pause or not. No time after jump for more, but could have chosen fight back in a 5:1.

Strategic? Fitting. Which didn't come into play. Coulda made a different ship choice. Cloak perhaps.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#60 - 2016-02-15 19:46:04 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Fa Xian wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
[You would like more tactics. Fine. What tactics did you actually employ? It seems pretty disingenuous to say, "I would like more tactics," and then claim that you basically intentionally suicided yourself into a gatecamp.


I was in a fine ship. 3 stabs. Heavy tank. Drones, gun, neut. But you can only do so much. 5 to 1 and it's my fit, eh?



Yep. It's your fit, to a large degree.

Stabs are a poor choice in general. On something as slow to align as an industrial, reality is that you're probably going to get hit with too many points, anyway. Add hictors, which don't give a single **** about your stabs, and you would be far better off almost anything else in those slots. Nanofibers or I-stabs. And a damage control.

I've put stabs on WH Epithals before, but that's really just due to the middling-high probability of a solo stealth bomber popping out on a POCO.

That gun is the epitome of useless (And, really, a faction blaster?).

As for tactics:

Problem #1: You warped directly to the gate. That was foolish. Had you warped to a safe or nearby celestial and scanned the gate, you could have seen that there were hostiles there. It won't save you every time - they could all be on the other side of the gate - but it's still a bit negligent to not even check.

A scout is obviously better.

I'm betting you jumped through as soon as you landed. There's always a chance you can bait them into engaging you there, giving themselves a weapons timer and preventing them from following you. You can soak a couple hits. Trying to warp away on the spot will force at least one to engage, while still leaving you close enough to the gate to hop through.

Now, here's where your bad fit comes into play:

There's a VERY good chance you could have escaped if you had fit a cloak and MWD. Not 100%, by any means, but still quite good. When you landed on the other side, it is VERY possible that you could have aligned, cloaked, hit the MWD, waited for it to cycle, decloaked and instantly warped, all without them ever getting a lock on you.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/