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First Maxed Eve account.

First post
Author
Pandora Bokks
Pangalactic Frontline Supply Agency
Externa Group
#121 - 2016-02-14 16:31:09 UTC
Dr Caymus wrote:
Pandora Bokks wrote:
Dr Caymus wrote:
The new skill system: Dawn of a New Era or Epic Fail

Perhaps I owe CCP an apology for making a goal of leading the skillpoint group for the last 13 years, I must have offended them greatly for them to do what they have done to the system.

However, now a complete mockery of the system has been made with a 3-day-old character. Was that not seen coming?

This could have been done much more effectively with more controls: more tiers with decreasing marginal gains at higher SP levels, daily limits, or whatever.

Back up and restore, anyone?


I feel a bit sorry for you, but to be honest - paying a subscription for 13 years in a row is nothing I would call an achievement. If it is that important for you, you an get back to top position in a couple of hours.

You're missing the point, Pandora. You are correct, I have the resources to take this char to max if I wanted, but this isn't about me, its about the game... its history, its lore, its value, its perception within the gaming industry.




This is something I can agree with. I do not like the introduction of SPI, especially not in the way it was done.
In my opinion, the fact that someone else is now leading the max SP group is just one of the least important implications. I would feel different if I was in your shoes of course - not sure whether I would use the same arguments you did.
SKINE DMZ
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#122 - 2016-02-14 16:31:38 UTC
Tippia when will you update your skill plan? Something a little bit more ISK orientated for efficiency

I disagree

Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#123 - 2016-02-14 16:34:56 UTC
Quote:
the history and progression of your character. The part that no longer matters since it's optional.


IT WAS ALWAYS OPTIONAL. No wonder some people dont pay attention to it. They only see SP.

Everyone had SP like a dog had his bone.
Rien Katelo
Sicarius.
#124 - 2016-02-14 16:35:30 UTC
This doesn't effect my game play so meh! What do I care.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#125 - 2016-02-14 16:36:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Mr Epeen wrote:
So a few mentally unstable/attention whores max out the SP on a few characters? How exactly does this affect the majority of players?
I'll tell you. Not in the least.
Mr Epeen Cool
Belief and the intangiable can have more value than raw figures.
Dalto Bane wrote:
The bright side is that the SP come from somewhere, and at a degraded amount.... and eventually the harvest will be reaped, and the price of SP will inflate, etc, etc. ... Ugh
Multiple characters -> SP farms.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Indahmawar Fazmarai
#126 - 2016-02-14 16:38:50 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Nana Skalski wrote:
We have different ideas about what is your history and what is experience. Time is not significant like you would want to see it. What matters most is what you have been able to do.
…in other words, the history and progression of your character. The part that no longer matters since it's optional.

Avvy wrote:
History doesn't really matter
Not any more, no. That's why something has been lost: because the organic growth of a character is gone, replaced with a short-sighted cash grab.

Quote:
Seems that they are trying to modernise the game, I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing
The problem is that they're not really doing that. There's nothing “modern” about these kinds of time skips. What they are doing is confirming some of the worst preconceived notions that players have had of EVE over almost its entire time on the market — notions that were never actually true, but are at least somewhat closer to being so today. This is indeed a bad thing; catering to uninformed opinions pretty much always are.


It would be terrible for the future of the game if new players think that they will need to buy SP on top of paying a subscription to play the game. And the fact that SP are sold contradicts all arguments that low SP characters are acceptable.

And for what?

There is one scary sentence in the devblog:

"We weren’t sure exactly what to expect but it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that you’re also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players or give you more freedom with your own characters."

So, what will be next?
Avvy
Doomheim
#127 - 2016-02-14 16:43:04 UTC
Poddington Bare wrote:
Cara Forelli wrote:
Wouldn't it be funny if CCP suddenly put clone costs back in? Big smile


Yes.

Yes it would.



But, unlikely especially after all the fuss to get them removed.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#128 - 2016-02-14 16:46:55 UTC
Nana Skalski wrote:
IT WAS ALWAYS OPTIONAL.

No. Before, you always had to actually plan ahead and think about where you wanted to end up. Depending on the time required, it was also a good idea to consider whether everything would have changed by the time you got there.

Now, you can ignore that part and just get whatever you want when you want to match whatever situation you're currently in. Now, it's optional; previously, since you couldn't skip time, it was not.

SKINE DMZ wrote:
Tippia when will you update your skill plan? Something a little bit more ISK orientated for efficiency

I have no interest in catering to this design error, and since the people who actually benefit from it are older players, they fall outside the intended audience for such a plan.
Darkblad
Doomheim
#129 - 2016-02-14 16:48:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Darkblad
Dr Caymus wrote:
This could have been done much more effectively with more controls: more tiers with decreasing marginal gains at higher SP levels, daily limits, or whatever.

Back up and restore, anyone?
I don't think for a second that CCP did'nt expect that to happen (3 day char leading the SP board).
Things like further deminishing returns or delay before further skill injection would've just moved the moment this happened (a bit) further into the future. I suspect CCP to be fully aware of that as well as of the consequences and they don't care for the impact this (and other results of the new age) may have on the game's heart and community.

Players still can follow their own path in eve, can continue to tell and write their own story. Nothing changed there. The community will most likely change, though. Some will leave the game (like I will), some will return and there'll certainly be new player as well. Just like it happened all the time since 2003.

For me, there's no back up and restore here. CCP just showed (once again) what they want.
Avvy
Doomheim
#130 - 2016-02-14 16:48:25 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:



So, what will be next?



Hopefully the removal of attributes and attribute implants.




Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#131 - 2016-02-14 16:48:43 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Nana Skalski wrote:
IT WAS ALWAYS OPTIONAL.

No. Before, you always had to actually plan ahead and think about where you wanted to end up. Depending on the time required, it was also a good idea to consider whether everything would have changed by the time you got there.


Bullshit. Character bazaar. Thank you.
Velarra
#132 - 2016-02-14 16:49:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Velarra
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
So, what will be next?


Pay CCP RL$ for sov on a monthly basis? Or instanced solar systems of a player's design for as long as the rental fee to CCP is maintained?

LolEvilBlink

*j/k
Samsara Toldya
Academy of Contradictory Behaviour
#133 - 2016-02-14 16:52:20 UTC
When JonnyPew extracted 100m+ SP CCP CEO Hilmar Veigar tweeted, that his mind was blown by this action
Or in other words: "We didn't see that coming!"

Can't wait for his Tweet on what this thread is about. With his mind already blown away by JonnyPew I'm afraid IronBank might have blown Hilmars balls... in one way or the other.
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#134 - 2016-02-14 16:52:50 UTC
Edwin Rothbard wrote:

Therein lies the problem: CCP has now created a system where the only way to stay competitive on SP is to pay RL cash for SP on top of your monthly subscription fee. This is the very definition of p2win. What's worse is that most p2win games are 'free' from a monthly subscription fee but with all the microtransactions. CCP has done one better by requiring both the month subscription fee AND the microtransactions. Not to mention CCP's idea of "micro" is really more "macro."

This looks great on a spreadsheet from an account's point of view, but for the health and longevity of the game it's bad.

Since when does SP equal winning? SP enables you to do stuff, it doesn't teach you anything, nor does it really give you an advantage.. There's only so many SP you can pump into something and then it's maxed out.
He can now do everything he wants in EVE. Good for him. I bet he still knows apeshit about most of the ships and would die a horrible death in them. This certainly isn't pay to win. It's more like pay to lose, as evidenced by a certain 4-day-old Ark pilot.

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.

Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#135 - 2016-02-14 16:53:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Yonis Kador
Short of a public flailing or self-immolation, I don't know what more I could've done to raise awareness against sp trading prior to its implementation. From the moment I heard about it, I recognized it was a game-changing paradigm shift and that the noobs in support were largely incapable of rationalizing what it would mean for vets & the game. The lack of feedback from CCP made it clear this was happening irrespective of any consequences.

I thought the best thing I could do was to make it an issue in the next CSM election. After visiting CSM watch, I posted a short, thoughtful comment on one of their interviews asking them to mention sp trading - because it was important to many players. They deleted it. I then went to our own CSM forums and realized that Xenuria is a top contender for CSM XI and (from his thread) excels apparently at having no platform outside "reform" - whatever that means (because he won't tell you.) So that's a joke. The current CSM allowed it to happen and many are running again. That's a joke. I'm so uninvested in the game atm, that if I can't find out which candidates support/endorse sp trading in EVE - I'm not even going to participate in the election.

Like many others, it makes me pretty ******* sad to see a 3-day old character make EVE history by becoming the first player with maxxed-out sp. When players wrote that sp trading would cheapen and demean the beauty of EVE - this is but one example of what we meant. SP trading is not EVE. Instant gratification is not EVE. What would be even better? If, with his trillions of isk, he did it 9 more times and became the first 10 toons to reach maxxed-out sp in EVE. Woooo!

At this stage in the game, what can one reasonably recommend to CCP RE: skill trading? Removing sp trading is out. The paradigm shift has occurred. Anyone with children will attest that the only thing worse than not giving a child the candy he's throwing a fit over is taking away that candy after you've already given it to him. Evil

So that's out.

Would arbitrary limits or the original plan of diminishing returns have helped? Probably not. It would have cost Ironbank more to max-out but he still could have done it easily. And not allowing anyone past x sp amt to inject skills would only shift anger to a different group. The idea is fail. This is a conceptual failure that shouldn't have ever been proposed. You can't tweak it into success.

If this was a purely business decision, nothing will change unless the loss from unsubs exceeds the gains from sales. And while many vets are now realizing that something's rotten with this idea, a majority of the 65% of players <3 years old must love it. Regardless, it'll take time for those financials to materialize.

My own experience with sp trading has been full of ups & downs. I hated it. Decided to try it. Felt dirty & unsubbed. Recanted and went all in - hacking up my alts. I ended up with max gunnery skills & a bunch of ships I couldn't fly but don't feel like I earned any of it. Now I'm wishing I could un-do all the changes I made. So I'm taking a few days off to see if I can re-spark the magic.

And if not - well, I'm still unsubbed.

Don't worry Dr. Caymus - we won't forget.

YK
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2016-02-14 16:57:19 UTC
Edwin Rothbard wrote:
Pandora Bokks wrote:
[quote=Dr Caymus]I feel a bit sorry for you, but to be honest - paying a subscription for 13 years in a row is nothing I would call an achievement. If it is that important for you, you an get back to top position in a couple of hours.

Therein lies the problem: CCP has now created a system where the only way to stay competitive on SP is to pay RL cash for SP on top of your monthly subscription fee. This is the very definition of p2win. What's worse is that most p2win games are 'free' from a monthly subscription fee but with all the microtransactions. CCP has done one better by requiring both the month subscription fee AND the microtransactions. Not to mention CCP's idea of "micro" is really more "macro."

This looks great on a spreadsheet from an account's point of view, but for the health and longevity of the game it's bad.


Isn't it the people who purchased Extractors to create Injectors that are the ones who paid RL cash? Seems IronBank simply used ISK he already had, ISK that wasn't gained by spending RL cash...? I've purchased a few Injectors, for example, with extra ISK I had laying around. Didn't spend a RL dime more than my sub cost for them.

Serda Ghekon
Tomis
#137 - 2016-02-14 16:59:58 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:


So, what will be next?


SP progression was (for me at least) the only reason for EVE to have a subscription fee. Coupled with the infrastructure upgrade http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/tranquility-tech-3/ and the desire to increase the number of players I can only think of one thing: free to play.
Dawny Star
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2016-02-14 17:01:32 UTC
Eli Stan wrote:
Edwin Rothbard wrote:
Pandora Bokks wrote:
[quote=Dr Caymus]I feel a bit sorry for you, but to be honest - paying a subscription for 13 years in a row is nothing I would call an achievement. If it is that important for you, you an get back to top position in a couple of hours.

Therein lies the problem: CCP has now created a system where the only way to stay competitive on SP is to pay RL cash for SP on top of your monthly subscription fee. This is the very definition of p2win. What's worse is that most p2win games are 'free' from a monthly subscription fee but with all the microtransactions. CCP has done one better by requiring both the month subscription fee AND the microtransactions. Not to mention CCP's idea of "micro" is really more "macro."

This looks great on a spreadsheet from an account's point of view, but for the health and longevity of the game it's bad.


Isn't it the people who purchased Extractors to create Injectors that are the ones who paid RL cash? Seems IronBank simply used ISK he already had, ISK that wasn't gained by spending RL cash...? I've purchased a few Injectors, for example, with extra ISK I had laying around. Didn't spend a RL dime more than my sub cost for them.




Not quite

Extractors are only seeded via someone buying them with AUR, and AUR can only come from one of 3 places

Plex to AUR conversion - Someone bought a PLEX, PLEX can only be generated by RL Cash
RL Cash to AUR purchase.
Historically gifted AUR from CCP - There's no damn way they gave enough away for this weeks events :p

So people have absolutely been generating CCP income with this.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#139 - 2016-02-14 17:03:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Nana Skalski wrote:
Bullshit. Character bazaar.
You mean the place where you had to plan ahead and think about where you wanted to end up, and depending on the time required, it was a good idea to consider whether everything would have changed by the time you got there (since the product might no longer be a viable build at that point)? And where, if something had very recently changed, chances are that no-one had created the build you wanted all that time ago since they were building for a different meta. The place that just gave you a character, that you now had to plan for and organically grow in the long-term since you still couldn't just match whatever situation you found yourself in?

About as far away from optional as you could come. The reason it worked was exactly because it didn't offer any way around the time expenditure and organic growth that create the history a character, or around its existence at a specific time in the history of the game — factors that have now become completely optional.

Direct SP manipulation is, was, and always will be a vastly different beast than character trading. Equating the two is thoroughly ignorant.
Avvy
Doomheim
#140 - 2016-02-14 17:03:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Tippia wrote:
Nana Skalski wrote:
IT WAS ALWAYS OPTIONAL.

No. Before, you always had to actually plan ahead and think about where you wanted to end up. Depending on the time required, it was also a good idea to consider whether everything would have changed by the time you got there.

Now, you can ignore that part and just get whatever you want when you want to match whatever situation you're currently in. Now, it's optional; previously, since you couldn't skip time, it was not.


Unless you purchased a character from the character bazaar of course.


Edit:

Ok, just seen that was covered in post #131