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Dev blog: Reworking Capital Ships: Skills, Modules and Refitting

First post
Author
PotterPig
Thundercats
The Initiative.
#221 - 2016-02-18 15:23:05 UTC
Quote:
you will only require the Fighters skill to use Light, Support and Heavy Fighters.


So its pointless to have the light/support Skills? or will they provide some bonus to their drones, like n% bonus to damage, Durability etc ?

It's about time you tell us how exactly those new fighters work and how the stats are
Lugh Crow-Slave
#222 - 2016-02-18 15:27:55 UTC
PotterPig wrote:
Quote:
you will only require the Fighters skill to use Light, Support and Heavy Fighters.


So its pointless to have the light/support Skills? or will they provide some bonus to their drones, like n% bonus to damage, Durability etc ?

It's about time you tell us how exactly those new fighters work and how the stats are


could you really not read a few lines down?

devblog wrote:


The Light Fighter and Support Fighter skills will give bonus to Light Fighters and Support Fighters respectively. More details about the fighter transition plan will come in a later blog.
PotterPig
Thundercats
The Initiative.
#223 - 2016-02-18 17:51:08 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:


devblog wrote:


The Light Fighter and Support Fighter skills will give bonus to Light Fighters and Support Fighters respectively. More details about the fighter transition plan will come in a later blog.

whops... not sure why I didn't see that ... thanks !

Would be nice to get the Numbers anyways
Lugh Crow-Slave
#224 - 2016-02-18 19:19:58 UTC
PotterPig wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:


devblog wrote:


The Light Fighter and Support Fighter skills will give bonus to Light Fighters and Support Fighters respectively. More details about the fighter transition plan will come in a later blog.

whops... not sure why I didn't see that ... thanks !

Would be nice to get the Numbers anyways


i get the feeling they don't have the numbers yet they have been pretty good so far at getting information out quick (some times a bit too quick imo)
MR Spleen
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#225 - 2016-02-19 18:31:50 UTC
Syri Taneka wrote:
ergherhdfgh wrote:
In the current era of carriers Gallente and Minmatar carriers are at a huge disadvantage or should I say suffer from usefullness problems. Before I go on I just want to say that I ran a mass carrier production effort for several years so I feel like I have a decent handle on what sells and what does not when it comes to carriers.

Gallente carriers with their drone bonus may be able to be made into decent solo ratting platforms but not really all that much better than a properly fit faction or T2 BS. And when you consider how long it takes them to warp from site to site maybe not as good. When it comes to Triage mode without the ability to cap trans at the same range as their tank trans combined with the lack of a tank bonus they fall behind the Amarr and Caldari versions.

The Nidhoggur seemed to me like there were situations where it could be useful with it's bonus to tank trans amount. However again without a tank bonus and cap trans bonus they seemed to not get used much.

So now with these Force Auxiliaries you guys are giving resistance bonuses to the Amarr and Caldari again also with capacitor bonus. Gallente and Minmatar get bonus to local rep amount ( which is a huge disadvantage to resistance amount in large fleet fights ) combined with a cap charge bonus which is really kind of negated by the cycle time bonus that is given en lieu of boost amount.

Now I understand that this is sticking with the bonuses with the racial lines. However for cruiser sized logistics ships the ability to operate solo makes the Gallente and Minmatar ships very valuable in small and medium sized gangs as well as smaller incursion groups.

However when we are talking about capital class ships these typically only fight in groups, at least by choice anyway. Any time that I see a solo capital ship reported in intel it winds up being one of two things. Either someone hoping to travel through that got caught with their pants down or bait and far more often bait.

So with Force Auxiliaries I really don't see much of a role for the Gallente and Minmatar. I'm sure that they will get used and people will buy them however at a much lower rate than the the other two and probably more significantly the Apostle since the Archon was out selling the other 3 combined last time that I was involved in carrier sales.


I understand what you're arguing, but you are aware that Capital Cap Chain gameplay is going away, right? Remote modules will only be useful on FAUX and will only then be useful in Triage, where you can't be remote assisted. I doubt many people will be willing to fly fleets that depend on capital cap trans to function (outside of Titans), so that bonus is almost worthless. Only thing to consider then is whether tank bonus is worth more or less than repair bonus and worse slot layout.

Secondly... the purpose of Capacitor capacity bonuses is Capacitor levels after jumping. The bigger a pool you start with, the more you have afterwards. Really important for something planning to drop in and Triage right away. Enemies expecting you to come can do horrible things to low-pool capitals using a wave or two of void bombs. Bigger base capacity protects against that. On the other hand, we have the Gallente and Minmatar versions which are better at recovering from that with stronger cap injection.


I'm hoping that they change this so all FAUX ships get same bonuses to resistance and all recieve the shield armor and cap transfer ability the thing that always made the archon and chimera preferable to the other 2 races was the resistance bonus and with the archon/aeon pilot being able to use a slave set made this is what made it king of the hill so leveling this would make a much better thing than repair amount bonus as hp and resistances is whats really needed.

Join IAPUB in game if you want 0.0 pvp.

Syri Taneka
NOVA-CAINE
#226 - 2016-02-19 18:55:19 UTC
I had a few thoughts regarding carriers and FAUXs I wanted to get down. They're more relevant to carriers overall, but involve the new guys a little.

Carriers have languished at the tail end of the Capital spectrum for a little while now, from as early as the time Dreads existed, and even more so when Titans went single-target DD and Supers became a thing. What has long been considered a proper non-fancy (t2 and maybe some faction) Carrier fit will melt in 30 seconds under the fire of five Dreads or Supers, or simply be taken off the field by a Titan. The same can not be said for the other way around. Carriers have been getting pushed more and more towards being "big sub-caps"; 2-3k dps beached whales with slow align and warp, with slow-locking heavy logistics on the side.

With this balance change, the Logistics side of things is disappearing. Carriers will now be nothing more than oversized drone boats vulnerable to just about everything else on the battlefield. They really are "big sub-caps", and it's time to start treating them that way.

Improve agility (align time) and warp speed, so Carriers/FAUX can better keep up with a heavy roaming fleet. Keep them below a BS but above where they are now. Modify cost through manufacturing needs so the hull itself (no mods) winds up averaging about 600M, tops. Reduce signature radius so that they remain fully vulnerable to sub-caps, but take less-than-full damage from capital weapons (about half), including fighter-bombers. Improve lock speed slightly to be closer to a BS.

Not sure what you're planning to do with Drone Controls, but definitely leave them in, and either allow more squads or more fighters per squad, whichever seems more balanced.

Now on to skill bonuses. These are purely for carriers.

Gallente: Fighter damage and local tank performance. Amarr: Fighter damage and armor resists. Minmatar: Fighter health and local tank performance. Caldari: Fighter health and shield resists.

Role bonus: Racially appropriate bonus to support fighters. IE Amarr: Neut, Gallente: Damps, Caldari: ECM, Minmatar: Webs
Lugh Crow-Slave
#227 - 2016-02-19 20:58:57 UTC
MR Spleen wrote:


I'm hoping that they change this so all FAUX ships get same bonuses to resistance and all recieve the shield armor and cap transfer ability the thing that always made the archon and chimera preferable to the other 2 races was the resistance bonus and with the archon/aeon pilot being able to use a slave set made this is what made it king of the hill so leveling this would make a much better thing than repair amount bonus as hp and resistances is whats really needed.


the local rep bonuses to ga/minm will be enough to make up for the lack of resistance bonuses and will give them a different role to the cal/amarr

if you make them all the same then we will just wind up having one that is slightly better and thus always used


Lugh Crow-Slave
#228 - 2016-02-19 21:01:20 UTC
Syri Taneka wrote:
I had a few thoughts regarding carriers and FAUXs I wanted to get down. They're more relevant to carriers overall, but involve the new guys a little.

Carriers have languished at the tail end of the Capital spectrum for a little while now, from as early as the time Dreads existed, and even more so when Titans went single-target DD and Supers became a thing. What has long been considered a proper non-fancy (t2 and maybe some faction) Carrier fit will melt in 30 seconds under the fire of five Dreads or Supers, or simply be taken off the field by a Titan. The same can not be said for the other way around. Carriers have been getting pushed more and more towards being "big sub-caps"; 2-3k dps beached whales with slow align and warp, with slow-locking heavy logistics on the side.

With this balance change, the Logistics side of things is disappearing. Carriers will now be nothing more than oversized drone boats vulnerable to just about everything else on the battlefield. They really are "big sub-caps", and it's time to start treating them that way.

Improve agility (align time) and warp speed, so Carriers/FAUX can better keep up with a heavy roaming fleet. Keep them below a BS but above where they are now. Modify cost through manufacturing needs so the hull itself (no mods) winds up averaging about 600M, tops. Reduce signature radius so that they remain fully vulnerable to sub-caps, but take less-than-full damage from capital weapons (about half), including fighter-bombers. Improve lock speed slightly to be closer to a BS.

Not sure what you're planning to do with Drone Controls, but definitely leave them in, and either allow more squads or more fighters per squad, whichever seems more balanced.

Now on to skill bonuses. These are purely for carriers.

Gallente: Fighter damage and local tank performance. Amarr: Fighter damage and armor resists. Minmatar: Fighter health and local tank performance. Caldari: Fighter health and shield resists.

Role bonus: Racially appropriate bonus to support fighters. IE Amarr: Neut, Gallente: Damps, Caldari: ECM, Minmatar: Webs



.... mind waiting till ccp anounces stats for the new carrier and fighters and see if the same issues remain?
MR Spleen
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#229 - 2016-02-19 22:28:15 UTC  |  Edited by: MR Spleen
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
MR Spleen wrote:


I'm hoping that they change this so all FAUX ships get same bonuses to resistance and all recieve the shield armor and cap transfer ability the thing that always made the archon and chimera preferable to the other 2 races was the resistance bonus and with the archon/aeon pilot being able to use a slave set made this is what made it king of the hill so leveling this would make a much better thing than repair amount bonus as hp and resistances is whats really needed.


the local rep bonuses to ga/minm will be enough to make up for the lack of resistance bonuses and will give them a different role to the cal/amarr

if you make them all the same then we will just wind up having one that is slightly better and thus always used




That problem already exists hence why ccp said at eve Vegas that the hidhogour and hel were considered the poor relations and the archon and aeon are the preferred ships in capital combat, this is not due to anything other than natural armor resistance bonus and availability of slave implants that boost hit points the next best in terms of HP is the chimera again due to resistances but there are no faction implants except Genolutions that boost its shield hp after this is the thanatos and then nidhogour which receive no hp bonus through resistances but the nidhogour is always primaried as it has lowest hp and is the best at logistics making it a priority target on the battlefield.

The problem is further exacerbated by the fact that these ships also gain an extra slot to further improve there tank meaning they have the ability to fit an extra hardner thereby giving still higher resistances and more effective hit points while also requiring less use of the armor/shield repairers or logistics support due to the higher resistances, the only solution I can see to this problem is to reverse the situation either making the galente and minmatar ships gain the resistance bonus and the other 2 the repair bonus or giving them the extra slot for tank while reducing the slots on the other 2.

At present the amarr and caldari are having there cake and eating it while minmatar and galente are sitting there starving.

Join IAPUB in game if you want 0.0 pvp.

Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#230 - 2016-02-20 18:15:20 UTC
I have an idea for refitting that might make most people happier although not me because I'm quitting:

The weapon timer suggestion is flawed. It only restricts ships that aggress, so refitting hardeners, warp core stabs or those stupid 99% hull resist modules infinitely (seriously they're dumb and you should feel dumb for suggesting them... okay hold that thought I need to dedicate a paragraph to them.

LOL "Can't Touch This" Damage Control. Here's how this module will be used: a pair of carriers (or FAX, whatever) will sit comfortably inside a docking ring refitting these off each other all day as they burn out. Other ships will be used to kill people who aggress them, the carriers themselves won't get weapon timers and thus won't be restricted from having 99% resists all day. They are a horrible idea in every respect and should've been scrubbed from the whiteboard less than a minute after being conceived.

...okay, back to refitting. No restrictions on non-aggressors is dumb, it's exploitable, you can do stupid things with it in all space except maybe w-space and I'm probably just forgetting possibilities there. In low and null it's people doing carrier games like above and people refitting to stabs to avoid pvp without sacrificing anything, in high it's stabs and people stripping officer mods from Jita bait ships.

Solution: the only restriction on refitting is that the module being removed or replaced must have been offlined at least X seconds ago, where X is up for balance discussion. My instinct is that 180 seconds is a good value. You get the flexibility of combat refits but have to severely nerf your ship in preparation for them, and they can't be used as a cheap way out of losses.

Now please stop killing EVE, I liked this game.
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#231 - 2016-02-20 22:05:28 UTC
Masao Kurata wrote:
I have an idea for refitting that might make most people happier although not me because I'm quitting:

Rest of message send to /dev/null.

Really don't give people the best reason in the world to ignore you if you feel like you have something worth while to say.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.

Lugganath
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#232 - 2016-02-21 00:09:52 UTC
if combat refitting is such an issue, kill the refitting timer restriction if the ship with the fleet hanger is Triaged. now there is a consequence to refitting on the fly and the enemy team gets a nice visual to know its happening in front of their eyeholes.

it also adds to the need for FAX ships in fleet combat where in-fight refitting is wanted, while not screwing with passive refitting offered from other ships (nestor, ect)
Lugh Crow-Slave
#233 - 2016-02-21 13:47:06 UTC
Lugganath wrote:
if combat refitting is such an issue, kill the refitting timer restriction if the ship with the fleet hanger is Triaged. now there is a consequence to refitting on the fly and the enemy team gets a nice visual to know its happening in front of their eyeholes.

it also adds to the need for FAX ships in fleet combat where in-fight refitting is wanted, while not screwing with passive refitting offered from other ships (nestor, ect)



Except one of the biggest complaints people against combat refitting is triage carrier pairs/groups this only slightly mitigates the issue not solves it

And considering a non triage fax is going to be useless I can't see this making any differance
Lugh Crow-Slave
#234 - 2016-02-21 13:51:47 UTC
Masao Kurata wrote:

LOL "Can't Touch This" Damage Control. Here's how this module will be used: a pair of carriers (or FAX, whatever) will sit comfortably inside a docking ring refitting these off each other all day as they burn out. Other ships will be used to kill people who aggress them, the carriers themselves won't get weapon timers and thus won't be restricted from having 99% resists all day. They are a horrible idea in every respect and should've been scrubbed from the whiteboard less than a minute after being conceived.


Now please stop killing EVE, I liked this game.



But if the carriers have no timer then they are not doing anything...

And even if they and their fleet are tanking 60 (at witch point these modsites aren't needed) I would assume they will be as large as a standard capital mod so they would only be able to hold 3 each
Iam Widdershins
Victory or Whatever
#235 - 2016-02-22 23:51:38 UTC
Hey CCP,

Good stuff but there's one thing you should be very careful of:

Emergency Hull Energizers must give you a weapon timer!

If they don't, as long as you manage to deaggress once you can be virtually invincible as long as you have refitting service and a continued stream of EHE modules to fit to your ship every 20 seconds.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature

CaesarGREG
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#236 - 2016-02-23 18:30:08 UTC
All Capitals have "bastion modules" carriers should have one too.



FAX + Triage (give RR bonuses)
Carrier + Triage (give Self Rep bonuses. )



Pls , think abaut how re design Triage module:)
Simplest way always to take away somthing from ppl.?
Faren Shalni
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#237 - 2016-02-23 19:11:40 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Lugganath wrote:
if combat refitting is such an issue, kill the refitting timer restriction if the ship with the fleet hanger is Triaged. now there is a consequence to refitting on the fly and the enemy team gets a nice visual to know its happening in front of their eyeholes.

it also adds to the need for FAX ships in fleet combat where in-fight refitting is wanted, while not screwing with passive refitting offered from other ships (nestor, ect)



Except one of the biggest complaints people against combat refitting is triage carrier pairs/groups this only slightly mitigates the issue not solves it

And considering a non triage fax is going to be useless I can't see this making any differance


Groups of triaged caps will only be a strong as the tank of the individual ship. You only need to break 1 triage during its 5 min timer to kill all of them (eventually.) Combat refitting was a tactic employed by skilled pilots to increase the survivability of their ship. But even with this mechanic triage will die eventually. Heat damage, pilot fatigue, pilot error or even your fleet getting reinforcements which tips the fight in your favour. It is an exercise in patience.

If you cant break a triage then why are you still engaging. its the same as if the enemy drops 20 guardians. If you cant break it leave or bring something that can.

So Much Space

Lugh Crow-Slave
#238 - 2016-02-23 21:04:21 UTC
Faren Shalni wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Lugganath wrote:
if combat refitting is such an issue, kill the refitting timer restriction if the ship with the fleet hanger is Triaged. now there is a consequence to refitting on the fly and the enemy team gets a nice visual to know its happening in front of their eyeholes.

it also adds to the need for FAX ships in fleet combat where in-fight refitting is wanted, while not screwing with passive refitting offered from other ships (nestor, ect)



Except one of the biggest complaints people against combat refitting is triage carrier pairs/groups this only slightly mitigates the issue not solves it

And considering a non triage fax is going to be useless I can't see this making any differance


Groups of triaged caps will only be a strong as the tank of the individual ship. You only need to break 1 triage during its 5 min timer to kill all of them (eventually.) Combat refitting was a tactic employed by skilled pilots to increase the survivability of their ship. But even with this mechanic triage will die eventually. Heat damage, pilot fatigue, pilot error or even your fleet getting reinforcements which tips the fight in your favour. It is an exercise in patience.

If you cant break a triage then why are you still engaging. its the same as if the enemy drops 20 guardians. If you cant break it leave or bring something that can.



And the current combat refitting isn't a problem is what is going to be with the new mods ccp said they needed to get rod of it to properly balance the new capitals
Lugh Crow-Slave
#239 - 2016-02-23 21:08:09 UTC
CaesarGREG wrote:
All Capitals have "bastion modules" carriers should have one too.



FAX + Triage (give RR bonuses)
Carrier + Triage (give Self Rep bonuses. )



Pls , think abaut how re design Triage module:)
Simplest way always to take away somthing from ppl.?




"X has it so Y should to" is a terribly limited way of thinking

Also currently only 1/2 of capital ships have a form of siege module so it wouldn't be out of place for carriers not to. In fact only 1/2 the carriers in hake currently do. If ccp had a plan not to give them one (something they haven't said anything about) I would like to hear that first before whining
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Goonswarm Federation
#240 - 2016-02-23 21:37:32 UTC
Why would I fly a carrier for the same DPS and 5x the effort? The micromanagement is what does it. It turns a simple hull split into a ship class being put out to pasture.