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[March] Sensor and ECCM Module Merger/Tiericide

First post
Author
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#21 - 2016-02-11 20:38:00 UTC
I like it

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.

Ezekiel Marr
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2016-02-11 20:44:19 UTC
So... now there's one module to counter damps and ECM. Meanwhile damps and ECM are represented by two(or five, if you count racial ECM as different) modules.

How is this fair to ewar pilots?
xPredat0rz
Grey Templars
The Initiative.
#23 - 2016-02-11 20:44:53 UTC
Seems like a huge nerf to OGBs.


Most fits require at least 2 ECCMs to get where they need to be. With these proposed changes you might have to upgrade to high grade talons to deal with the nerf to Sensor strength.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#24 - 2016-02-11 20:48:14 UTC
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
Hopelesshobo wrote:
This is the change ECCM/ECM has needed so people will stop complaining about ECM being OP so much. Give value to the module that isn't niche so people will actually have a module that gives them a bonus while on grid when they are not being jammed.

What I think people don't like about ECM that many have pointed out is it has no counter play. If you are jammed, that's it. You can no do absolutely nothing of value for the next 20 seconds in addition to the time it takes to relock targets. Oh and heaven help you if you had someone tackled and they vomited out some light ECM drones on you and escaped. ECM drones are the most produced drone for all the EW drones than all other drones combined. The reason is very obvious. They are super cheap and turns any ship with a drone bay into a Kitsune.

ECM is not a fun game mechanic. It is a dice roll to see if players are allowed to play the game or not. Merging these modules initially sounds good and does help the situation some, but still does absolutely nothing to address the fact being jammed offers no counter play what so ever. ECM is just a terrible game mechanic that is a relic from old game design philosophy.


I guess I will bite here...

You can still launch and assist drones (or have them set to aggressive.
F.O.F. missiles (yes, they do actually work in some situations)

And with tracking disruptors and sensor damps, they only give you the illusion you can still do something. Sorry, but if someone has any kind of meaningful EWAR applied to you, you will not be able to do anything.

One of the main reasons why so many people would complain about ECM is because they would refuse to fit ECCM. Jamming a ship that has ECCM equipped is not reliable. Meanwhile Tracking Computers and Sensor Boosters directly counter unbonused tracking disruptors and unbonused damps, but they still give you a useful on grid bonus that isn't niche.

ECM drones are used more then the other EWAR drones because the other EWAR drones are useless because they give a very small bonus, but they also apply stacking penalties to each other, so by the time you get to your 5th drone, its just hanging out in space. This is while the ECM drones only give each other diminishing returns because if 2 drones land a jam at the same time, one of them is effectively wasted.

A fix for the other EWAR drones that has been brought up before on the F&I is to simply make them into super drones that require more bandwidth, and give a larger bonus.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.

Barrett Fruitcake
Doomheim
#25 - 2016-02-11 20:48:42 UTC
Sydious wrote:
Clear Skies had you beat on this by a few years.



Heh, I thought the same thing when I saw that.

John McCreedy
Eve Defence Force
The Bastion
#26 - 2016-02-11 20:51:42 UTC  |  Edited by: John McCreedy
Ashterothi wrote:
Help me understand:

Your problem statement is "One of the worst things about the ECCM, Remote ECCM, and Sensor Backup Array modules is that they feel terrible for the user when nobody tries to jam you (or when you get jammed anyways since there are no guarantees with randomness)."

However your solution is " adding Omni ECCM effects to Sensor Boosters, Remote Sensor Boosters and Signal Amplifier modules, and adding a new ECCM script for the active modules."

While this does decrease the number of modules that is necessary, it doesn't rightly address the issue you stated. It solves a *different* issue, that of needing to collect too many extra modules for your different ships, but it doesn't address the fact that an ECCM module that is fit feels like a waste when you are not under jam pressure, or when the jam still succeeds.

Can you help me understand how this connection was made?


If I understood the blog correctly, if you're not running a script you'll still get sensor boosting and targeting range bonuses from the module even if the ECCM bonus fails due to randomness. Sounds like a sensible change to me.

13 years and counting. Eve Defence Force is recruiting.

Drazer Emolite
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2016-02-11 20:57:38 UTC
So the omni effect will be of the same strength as the racially-specific ECCM modules i'm assuming?

I like it, it bring a real reason to fit that mid slot so that even when you aren't fighting against the stupid strong ecm in this game its still useful, even if only a little.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#28 - 2016-02-11 20:57:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Any concerns that this will make almost every ship with a sebo, significantly more difficult to probe scan?

ECCM was not as popular before, but now it's rolled into an already high-use module.

Also, did you ever find out which monkey thought that passive, multi-racial ECCM modules should be a thing? (Referring to the old ones, not the new ones.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#29 - 2016-02-11 21:01:37 UTC
Looking at the numbers provided, your new ECCM options show a flat bonus to all sensor types. 50 for meta 0 and 60 for T2. Is this an intentional flat additive bonus, or should those be some sort of percentage?

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#30 - 2016-02-11 21:01:59 UTC
Good thing, but shouldn't ECM be tweaked, if not outright buffed due to this change?

Since it would be unreasonable to expect a complete remap of the ECM mecanic right now, even though that's what we really need, couldn't you like make ECM racially scriptables or something?

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Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
#31 - 2016-02-11 21:06:32 UTC
xPredat0rz wrote:
Seems like a huge nerf to OGBs.


Most fits require at least 2 ECCMs to get where they need to be. With these proposed changes you might have to upgrade to high grade talons to deal with the nerf to Sensor strength.



Since the passive modules have the same boni as the old backuparrays my guess is you still get a +50% base script you can load into your SeBo to get the same benefit as before.

But it really looks like a huge nerf to jammingships as eccm will be way more common. Also kinda nerf to combatscanning since there are still f.e. many guardiansetups that do not run eccm but Sebos.
Drazer Emolite
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2016-02-11 21:07:13 UTC
Altrue wrote:
Good thing, but shouldn't ECM be tweaked, if not outright buffed due to this change?

Since it would be unreasonable to expect a complete remap of the ECM mecanic right now, even though that's what we really need, couldn't you like make ECM racially scriptables or something?


Why would we buff ECM before you even see what the state of the game will be like with these changes, ECM is broken right now, there is no denying it.

That being said, im not entirely against ECM modules having scripts, but i think they should work like ammo, so you cant LITERALLY perma-jam somebody
Esnaelc Sin'led
La Forge.
Toilet Paper.
#33 - 2016-02-11 21:08:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Esnaelc Sin'led
@CCP Fozzie : +1
thebarry
7-2 Ronin
#34 - 2016-02-11 21:19:16 UTC  |  Edited by: thebarry
This sounds like a great idea!

What about rigs that affect sensor strength, e.g. Ionic Field Projector, have you thought about adding eccm to those as well?
Danetta Valens
Phayder Research
#35 - 2016-02-11 21:25:55 UTC
Ashterothi wrote:
Help me understand:

Your problem statement is "One of the worst things about the ECCM, Remote ECCM, and Sensor Backup Array modules is that they feel terrible for the user when nobody tries to jam you (or when you get jammed anyways since there are no guarantees with randomness)."

However your solution is " adding Omni ECCM effects to Sensor Boosters, Remote Sensor Boosters and Signal Amplifier modules, and adding a new ECCM script for the active modules."

While this does decrease the number of modules that is necessary, it doesn't rightly address the issue you stated. It solves a *different* issue, that of needing to collect too many extra modules for your different ships, but it doesn't address the fact that an ECCM module that is fit feels like a waste when you are not under jam pressure, or when the jam still succeeds.

Can you help me understand how this connection was made?

Probably, the better solution is:
Module with charges and comparable long reload time. Once you jammed, you can use an active charge to drop jam from you. It can be a big step from randomness.
Oddsodz
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#36 - 2016-02-11 21:30:42 UTC
It's like somebody has been listening to what I have been saying about how useless fitting the current ECCM modules.


I like this change
Anthar Thebess
#37 - 2016-02-11 21:32:01 UTC
I noticed that you are missing pirate lp store version of modules.
Carneros
Ancient Hittite Corporation
The Bastion
#38 - 2016-02-11 21:34:55 UTC
Suodemon wrote:
Doing the numbers on the T2 SEBO, and the scripted sensor strength comes out at 76.8 assuming 60% like the scan res and targeting range scripts. Current ECCM modules provide 96%. Did I just do the math wrong?


This might be a key point. Can we get this math clarified?

Thanks.
Arla Sarain
#39 - 2016-02-11 21:42:17 UTC
Albrecht Patrouette wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
H

These new modules will give bonuses to all four sensor strengths, as choosing the right ECCM type for your ship is not and interesting choice or valuable gameplay.

Thanks!


So . . . does that mean that having to choose the right ECM for the target ship is an "interesting choice or valuable gameplay"?

By the way, I really hate having to choose the right hardeners based upon the weapons I think might be used against me. It sucks so much having thermal used when I planned on kinetic. So . . . gonna lump those together now, too?

They have membranes which cover all resists.

T2 ships frequently only need 2 hardeners, because of racial resist profiles.

None of these examples warrant the sarcasm. ECM is a dumb mechanic. It's not a dumb EWAR variant. It's just executed poorly and immaturely (as in archaic game design).
Mr Rive
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#40 - 2016-02-11 21:57:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Rive
Noice.