These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Upcoming Feature and Change Feedback Center

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[March] Damage Control Tiericide

First post First post First post
Author
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#301 - 2016-02-13 22:15:24 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Oh I beg to differ.

The Avatar killed on 2015-09-23 22:51 had no DC fitted, this change would gift such titans with more EHP to burn through. Extra time for help to arrive or for reps to land. Its actually a lot more common for a titan to not have a DCU fitted than a lot of people think.


If your'e looking at the one I think you are, I would argue this guy absolutely should have had a DCU and not a Heatsink on that fit. Maybe there are legit Avatar fits that don't use DCU's, but I don't think that is one of them.

Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#302 - 2016-02-13 22:25:18 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
The Avatar killed on 2015-09-23 22:51 had no DC fitted, this change would gift such titans with more EHP to burn through. Extra time for help to arrive or for reps to land. Its actually a lot more common for a titan to not have a DCU fitted than a lot of people think.


It's definitely not true for the set of Avatars likely to show up on zkillboard. Out of 25 Avatars killed going back thru 2015, 20 had DCU's. Of the 5 without, one wasn't fit at all, and two were full cap recharger/flux coil travel fits.

So yeah, I dunno. Your claim could be absolutely true, I don't do cap combat. Perhaps, like pirates and global warming, DCU's are actually the leading cause of Avatars showing up on zKillboard? :)
KickAss Tivianne
Lohengrin Legion
#303 - 2016-02-13 22:26:45 UTC  |  Edited by: KickAss Tivianne
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Lena Lazair wrote:
Arguing that if everyone flew like RFF then everyone would enjoy the CURRENT RFF risk % is a non-starter.


Its actually the difference between:

- Ganking is not a problem. If people weren't dumb and/or lazy, they'd have a 99.9% success rate.

- Ganking is a problem. Even when making effort to reduce their risk, they still lose a freighter in 1/1000 times.

edit-Thats why i at least am focussing on it. Its not like the rules red frog use are hard for the greater population to follow.


The additional buff will make gankers select targets more selectively. Ganking empty freighters won't be done because "we are bored and want to blow something up for the LOLs". It will take more ships or more expensive ships to gank it. SO the risk for minimal reward is reached. A silly empty autopilot freighter may not be targeted. gankers will wait for more selective targets. That way the total number of ganks go down. But, the value of each gank goes up. Kinda the Eve way right?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#304 - 2016-02-13 22:27:00 UTC
Lena Lazair wrote:
If you can propose a better way to make fitting DCU an optional choice instead of a no-brainer requirement with less impact to the meta balance than what has been proposed, we're all ears...


Split the DCU into three consisting of structure, armour and shield. Continue with making it passive and have its stats land between the tow tanking options currently available.

Taking armour as the example we would haave resists that are easy to fit and capless but off the lowest bonus, EAMNs that offer better resists at higher fitting costs, armour DCU that offers better omni resists and capless but higher fitting costs and finally armour hardeners that give the best resists but are an active module.

Option two is more radical and would be to expand damage controls and turn them into dedicated hull resistance module family like the energised plating for armour which would help make hull tanking a more viable thing.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#305 - 2016-02-13 22:29:56 UTC
Lena Lazair wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Oh I beg to differ.

The Avatar killed on 2015-09-23 22:51 had no DC fitted, this change would gift such titans with more EHP to burn through. Extra time for help to arrive or for reps to land. Its actually a lot more common for a titan to not have a DCU fitted than a lot of people think.


If your'e looking at the one I think you are, I would argue this guy absolutely should have had a DCU and not a Heatsink on that fit. Maybe there are legit Avatar fits that don't use DCU's, but I don't think that is one of them.



There are zero reasons to not fit a DCU but people don't fit them enough for it to be a thing. Such people in my book should not be getting a buffBlink
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#306 - 2016-02-13 22:31:59 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


Split the DCU into three consisting of structure, armour and shield. Continue with making it passive and have its stats land between the tow tanking options currently available.

Taking armour as the example we would haave resists that are easy to fit and capless but off the lowest bonus, EAMNs that offer better resists at higher fitting costs, armour DCU that offers better omni resists and capless but higher fitting costs and finally armour hardeners that give the best resists but are an active module.

Option two is more radical and would be to expand damage controls and turn them into dedicated hull resistance module family like the energised plating for armour which would help make hull tanking a more viable thing.

We already have ANP's for low CPU passive resistance on armour. While it might be nice to have a low omni resist module for shields separate from the DCU, if we were going to split them off then the armour & shield bonus should just be deleted, and we then we can decide if there is enough justification for shield to get a passive omni resist module similar to ANP's in some way.
Armour however certainly does not need it.
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#307 - 2016-02-13 22:35:42 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

There are zero reasons to not fit a DCU but people don't fit them enough for it to be a thing. Such people in my book should not be getting a buffBlink


Sure but when it comes to gameplay mechanics, I think it's reasonable to balance around people making rational choices. If all rational people would have fit a DCU there, then it's not really a choice, and if it's not a choice, it's not compelling gameplay.

Other than freighters, the only other ships I can think of that might routinely not fit DCU would be various kite setups, and even then lots of folks choose to cram a DCU in regardless. I definitely think this is going to be an overall buff to the kitey meta, which I'm not necessarily thrilled about.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#308 - 2016-02-13 22:39:07 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Split the DCU into three consisting of structure, armour and shield. Continue with making it passive and have its stats land between the tow tanking options currently available.

Taking armour as the example we would haave resists that are easy to fit and capless but off the lowest bonus, EAMNs that offer better resists at higher fitting costs, armour DCU that offers better omni resists and capless but higher fitting costs and finally armour hardeners that give the best resists but are an active module.

Option two is more radical and would be to expand damage controls and turn them into dedicated hull resistance module family like the energised plating for armour which would help make hull tanking a more viable thing.

We already have ANP's for low CPU passive resistance on armour. While it might be nice to have a low omni resist module for shields separate from the DCU, if we were going to split them off then the armour & shield bonus should just be deleted, and we then we can decide if there is enough justification for shield to get a passive omni resist module similar to ANP's in some way.
Armour however certainly does not need it.


Agreed with the armour.

A low slot shield option would be handy on shield ships that struggle to fit mwd, tackle, booster and tank by allowing then to sacrifice firepower/speed.

I however edge more towards the dedicated hull tank resist mod approach. Its something we do not currently have and more options is a good thing.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#309 - 2016-02-13 22:50:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
One question I have been trying to answer for myself is:

What breaks if you balance the DCU as outlined in the OP, but don't buff every ship with a 33% hull resist?

Sentry guns is one possibility, since you would be reducing the overall tank of most ships, making it easier for sentry guns to burn through ships that have a DCU fit.

Another possibility is that ships fit with a DCU lose tank compared to now, whereas ships that don't fit a DCU currently don't lost tank, which potentially shortens some fights. The flip side is that with the current buff, even ships that don't fit a DCU now also get buffed, so they still become comparatively stronger, so it seems not much really changes relatively no matter which way the change goes.

As with the previous one, overall tank in the game would be reduced for many ships, but overall DPS in the game will remain the same, potentially shortening fights.

What else potentially breaks if no one gets the 33% hull resist buff?

Why not just balance DCUs and let the meta adjust to where it adjusts to and let fights be shorter and potentially with more destruction?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#310 - 2016-02-13 22:52:10 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Agreed with the armour.

A low slot shield option would be handy on shield ships that struggle to fit mwd, tackle, booster and tank by allowing then to sacrifice firepower/speed.

I however edge more towards the dedicated hull tank resist mod approach. Its something we do not currently have and more options is a good thing.

I wouldn't want to see sustainable hull tanking become a thing. The whole point of hull is that it is meant to be your ships real systems, and personally I'd like to see a lot more module damage taken when you are in hull, as the current amount that can happen is pitiful.
But DCU's being hull tanking only I'd have no issues with.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#311 - 2016-02-13 23:26:17 UTC
Masao Kurata wrote:
How much EHP is too much EHP for some pleb's hauler? One million? Two million? Ten million? If everyone in CODE. on all their dps characters are needed is that too much? What about everyone in miniluv? Freighter ganking is in no way too easy currently, that's why there is SO LITTLE OF IT.

It is also in no way too hard currently, that's why gankers don't bat an eye when they elect to drop a freighter, it's easy prey.

It'll take large changes to EHP to offset that. I think freighters should have a hull HP nerf to go along with their hull resist buff, but without that they will still be entirely gankable.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Lugh Crow-Slave
#312 - 2016-02-13 23:26:23 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Agreed with the armour.

A low slot shield option would be handy on shield ships that struggle to fit mwd, tackle, booster and tank by allowing then to sacrifice firepower/speed.

I however edge more towards the dedicated hull tank resist mod approach. Its something we do not currently have and more options is a good thing.

I wouldn't want to see sustainable hull tanking become a thing. The whole point of hull is that it is meant to be your ships real systems, and personally I'd like to see a lot more module damage taken when you are in hull, as the current amount that can happen is pitiful.
But DCU's being hull tanking only I'd have no issues with.


Wait when did hull become your ships systems is just the superstructure isn't it?
FT Cold
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#313 - 2016-02-13 23:32:49 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Cold
baltec1 wrote:


But I agree, a lot of other ships are also getting a buff they simply do not need. The Hecate for example is getting a buff just as questionable as the freighters are getting and adding 33% more tank to ships with no tank doesn't exactly make much sense, especially if they have chosen to not fir a tank to gain in other areas. From personal experience that added hull is going to mean an extra volly of torps from a bomber at the very least and when you have defenders currently landing just as the target is blowing up that extra hull is going to make hunting out in null that much harder and for no logical reason. Equally can anyone post an argument that titans need all of that extra EHP this change would give?

The whole 33% change just doesn't work very well in a lot of situations and with a lot of ships and their fits.


If you look back a few pages I provide a good example of why this line of reasoning is false for many pvp situations. The bottom line is that the 33% structure resist gives players a fitting choice now where the DC was previously mandatory. The hecate example you provided is an excellent case, as dropping the DC for an extra magstab currently sacrifices half of it's buffer tank and about 15% of it's AAR tank for about 10% more DPS. With the 33% structure change, it loses about a third of that buffer tank in exchange for the DPS, which is a much more equitable trade. This change makes the exchange worth consideration, the benefits and drawbacks are well balanced and players will have new choices.

You can certainly think of it as a blanked buff, but in many cases, it's buffing fits that right now aren't viable at all into viability, especially brawling fits that don't fit nanos. As for fits that currently don't use a DC, most of them are nano fits, which have, as CCP has mentioned, a self controlling feature imposed already, as nanos reduce structure significantly. Using the orthrus as an example, a double nano fit will still have a third more buffer in armor HP than structure after the change.

Also, titans and supers are slated for an EHP reduction when they're rebalanced, and I'm sure that this change has been factored into their calculations. Moreover, the fitting example above still applies to titans. For most fits, dropping the DC is almost always going to result in an EHP loss because of stacking penalties (especially for armor fits,) even with the 33% buff to structure resists.

I don't particularly care about the war between gankers and anti-gankers, but I share your concern over ratting fits gaining EHP because of this change. Despite that, you have repeatedly mischaracterized the scope of their EHP increase, though. It's a 33% buff to structure resistances, not 33% more tank. A few more vollies from a blopsing stealth bomber is a price I'm willing to pay for the kinds of new fits that become available in FW, solo, small gang, and even some kinds of blobby pvp.

Edit: Clarity and a few spelling mistakes.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#314 - 2016-02-14 03:16:29 UTC
KickAss Tivianne wrote:


The additional buff will make gankers select targets more selectively. Ganking empty freighters won't be done because "we are bored and want to blow something up for the LOLs". It will take more ships or more expensive ships to gank it. SO the risk for minimal reward is reached. A silly empty autopilot freighter may not be targeted. gankers will wait for more selective targets. That way the total number of ganks go down. But, the value of each gank goes up. Kinda the Eve way right?


Not just silly empty autopilot freighters, but all freighters will be targeted less, full afk freighters included.

Freighter pilots who evaded ganking through webs, alternate routes, scouting etc have little or nothing to gain from freighters becoming tougher because they were rarely targeted in the first place (i have 3 freighter pilots and a bowhead and after playing the game for over half a decade, no one has taken so much as a pot shot at them). The main beneficiaries of the change are the lazy and dumb, and that will push down the prices that would normally be enjoyed by smarter haulers who used the available tools.

How on earth you could be for that kind of change at this stage i just don't know.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#315 - 2016-02-14 03:21:16 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Just got this thread pointed out to me, thought I'd chime in.

It's pretty simple really, if you want to provide concise and solid feedback on EVE-O, then do so in a manner that's constructive and isn't attacking other people or other play styles.

The rules are there for a reason, and if you don't like them, there are plenty of other EVE related places to post that have different rule sets. Like this glorious subreddit for instance.

I've spent some time reviewing ISD actions in the thread, and there were two camps at war here. One half is those who most people will call "gankers" who're salty about the resistance changes that are going to make their lives more difficult and mean they're going to have to put more effort into highsec ganking and put more cost on the line, and the other side is those who're risk adverse and who're basically saying "leellllllll sucks 2 b u gankers!"


Neither of these groups have had anything constructive to say, and haven't added anything of value to the thread, so they've been moderated out to prevent people who actually have valid feedback about the changes from being drowned out.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/45lsw6/continued_censorship_in_the_damage_control/

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

BoneyTooth Thompkins ISK-Chip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#316 - 2016-02-14 03:26:42 UTC
I normally stay away from these forums because of the signal-to-noise ratio, but there's some interesting discussion here. I wont really contribute much, but I'll say a few things.

First, a lot of people have some misconceptions about ganking. One person compared it to ratting. Other people talk about it like its free money. The truth is there is so much more happening behind the scenes that occurs to make everything possible. Recruitment, Authorization, Supply and Procurement, Logistics (Ever tried moving a few thousand catalysts, 200 at a time?), Fitting ships on a weekly if not daily basis, Selling loot and investment. Scouting and Recon. Training. Veteran bumpers spend days of playtime bumping to get to their skill level. Freighter FCs spend months leading smaller fleets before they step up. And, of course, FCing.

Ganking will continue to happen, but the work required to make ganking happen has increased many-fold compared to additional gank costs and throwing more talos or catalysts at a freighter. The increase in cost is negligible; we don't make our money from killing 1b-3b freighters, we make it for killing 10b-20b freighters. All this really does is make our lives harder, not reduce the profitability of ganking. And as so many people pointed out, often profitability doesn't really enter the equation.

So I think that's the problem I have with this change. This change doesn't make for more interesting gameplay; it's N+1 gameplay. The only thing that's getting harder is everything but ganking. And I think this is a symptom of a larger problem with highsec and gank-oriented gameplay. It's very asymmetric. Gankers go after the whale; anti-gankers go after the gankers. The gankers can try to respond, but under very different engagement rules. The whale tries to get away any way it can (and it often does). All this change does is say, "Bring more gankers." Don't gank smarter, don't gank cleverer, just gank harder.

I think a few people (Hi Rham) keep decrying bumping. But I think CCP has shown they're interested in keeping bumping, as it's an interesting game mechanic in every area of gameplay. As I said above, people don't realize how long bumpers train and practice. We don't let inexperienced bumpers bump for fleets, and experienced, seasoned bumpers are hard to come by. I think everyone hears about the dead freighters, but not the ones that got away through a myriad of ways, not even including bumper error. But even without bumping, on-gate suicide point freighter ganks would still be possible (see Russian ganking). But that's far less interesting gameplay for all sides involved, with virtually no counter on the freighter's part in exchange for a significantly more tedious, but easier, ganker play.

I am not unilaterally opposed to changes to ganking and highsec mechanics that make for more interesting gameplay, particularly with respect to freighters. However, if the motivation for this change is to curb freighter ganking, it's boring and uninspired and leads to no actually gameplay change. And I think whatever uptick in ganking may exist is due not to the difficulty of freighter ganking, but to the fact that there are several insanely dedicated individuals that make this all possible.
Violet Crumble
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#317 - 2016-02-14 03:38:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Violet Crumble
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Not just silly empty autopilot freighters, but all freighters will be targeted less, full afk freighters included.

Freighter pilots who evaded ganking through webs, alternate routes, scouting etc have little or nothing to gain from freighters becoming tougher because they were rarely targeted in the first place...

This exactly.

There was a misconception earlier about certain freighter company having lower risk. I don't want to open that discussion again, however it is worth correcting that misconception as it goes right to the heart of this issue for me as a hauler.

That freighter company limits risk to the extent that the structure of the business allows hauling to continue even under random and perma-wardecs. Alts are placed in the Corp to accept contracts and once accepted, the packages are handed off to, generally NPC Corp hauling alts (but not always NPC Corp).

Once that hand-off occurs, the safety of the package is 100% based on the way the individual pilot manages risk. It's not like a 70K m^3 package accepted on behalf of them is transported on its own in an almost empty freighter. Often, other contracts will be accepted from the Hauling Channel, or mailing list, or even the contracts system; and several packages are moved together in the one shipment.

The final risk that those packages will be lost has very little to do with the Freight Corp, and everything to do with how I (and others) move from point A to point B. The same hazards are present, no matter who the package originates through.

The final risk, comes down to individual action and behaviours and that's no different whether it's from that Corp, Push-X, a contract off the hauling channel, etc. It's all the same.

And that's why this change as currently proposed hurts good hauling pilots, because it rewards the lazy.

More AFK autopiloted packages will reach their destination as a result of this change; and that means there is less advantage to those that are good at what they do, because the mechanics will make poor pilots look better, while providing no practical benefit to good pilots.

Funtime Factory - We put the fun back in funtime

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#318 - 2016-02-14 04:48:13 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Agreed with the armour.

A low slot shield option would be handy on shield ships that struggle to fit mwd, tackle, booster and tank by allowing then to sacrifice firepower/speed.

I however edge more towards the dedicated hull tank resist mod approach. Its something we do not currently have and more options is a good thing.

I wouldn't want to see sustainable hull tanking become a thing. The whole point of hull is that it is meant to be your ships real systems, and personally I'd like to see a lot more module damage taken when you are in hull, as the current amount that can happen is pitiful.
But DCU's being hull tanking only I'd have no issues with.


We have hull reppers, bulkheads and at the moment the DCU that allow hull tanking to be done but its not a very viable thing outside of a few hulls and mostly employed as bait. The area lacks a dedicated structure resist line of mods so if DCU are to be nerfed it would be better making them into a line of mods for helping make structure tanking a thing.

As the current changes stand CCP are going to blanket buff a lot of ships that don't need it, some of them massively and without justification while at the same time the DCU is still going to be mandatory on the bulk of fits because it still adds shields and armour.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#319 - 2016-02-14 04:58:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
baltec1 wrote:
Dom Arkaral wrote:
this thread keeps on going in circles

MAKE PROPOSITIONS FFS

I'm out of this cancer thread


I have.

If CCP want to nerf the DCU then split the mod into 3. Hull, Armour and shield. Don't bother with the 33% buff to all ships, it isn't needed and causes a huge number of problems.


We already have tank modules for each defensive stat.

Just delete the Damage Control concept entirely, and commensurately buff any ship that could use them, nothing else. Then add a hull resist module, just for hull resists.

Simple, clean, fixes the issue.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#320 - 2016-02-14 08:20:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Tipa Riot
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Dom Arkaral wrote:
this thread keeps on going in circles

MAKE PROPOSITIONS FFS

I'm out of this cancer thread


I have.

If CCP want to nerf the DCU then split the mod into 3. Hull, Armour and shield. Don't bother with the 33% buff to all ships, it isn't needed and causes a huge number of problems.


We already have tank modules for each defensive stat.

Just delete the Damage Control concept entirely, and commensurately buff any ship that could use them, nothing else. Then add a hull resist module, just for hull resists.

Simple, clean, fixes the issue.

I like that idea. The main flaw of the current proposal I see now is (after checking my fits), that it makes the DCU only a little less mandatory but not really because its shield and armor bonus remains the same. Hence this is a nerf to shield and armor fits (due to much less choice of affordable fittings) and a boost to hull tank only. Actually I have fits using all of the low meta modules purely for fitting reasons. This change again reduces the number of cost effective fits. Ugh

CCP, this game needs more fitting options not less, or we end up in even more situations where only one or few fits actually work and are affordable.

I'm my own NPC alt.