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Eve devalued
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Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#161 - 2016-02-16 13:31:03 UTC
The old system worked great for EVE for a very long time. But it was not sustainable in perpetuity. You can tell new players a thousand times that they can be successful and have fun even with 5m SP... if you are that new player and seemingly everyone else has 150m SP, it's just not fun. And buying a character someone else created is not for everyone... I for instance would rather have quit EVE than play a character I didn't make myself.

Now ambitious new players have a way to grind (or scam oder pay etc) their way to faster progress. Even if they never buy significant amounts of SP for lack of the ISK, they know that way is potentially available, which already changes the outlook. We veterans may have misgivings, but it was simply necessary for EVE's long-term viability.

.
Verlyn
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#162 - 2016-02-16 14:13:57 UTC
stg slate wrote:
Verlyn wrote:
who have it given to them all on a silver platter.


I didn't realize new accounts got tons of free skill-points handed to them to catch up. I assumed new players just had the option to buy skill-points through injectors and would end up paying around 3x as much as older players have.


I didn't realize one had to actually count on his own numbers right before barely even replying to an entire post.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#163 - 2016-02-16 14:16:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
True Sight wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
The difference is and will be scale. This feature is going to be an abject lesson to CCP of the folly of cash grabbing.

There are undoubtedly more people using this skill trading system than ever used the character bazaar. There will be many more people farming SP than their were farming characters. The character bazaar was ok, it was flawed, clunky and thus limited.

The people supporting skill trading are every bit as naïve as the people who argued with us back in 2009. CCP claimed Dominion Sov would be GREAT for small groups, and the...overly optimistic types agreed and some even proclaimed that the 'entrenched powers' were going to get what they had coming.

What they got was richer and stronger while the weaker folk got poorer...them absorbed into the CFC lol. What they did was complexly shut out the few small/independent types who had a bit of sov. As in EVERY case like this, the people who were supposed to benefit, mostly didn't, while the people who should have never been handed more advantages used the system to create even more advantages.

A few years later I was more than happy to gloat at CCP a bit when the truth finally set in (because it was so obvious and "blue donuty" that it could no longer be ignored). I plan on doing the exact same with this feature, after breaking the space-bank with SP farmed isk...that will probably be about as valuable as a Zimbabwe dollar by then.


My God, I was half way through reading your response, and forgot if we were discussing Eveonline or the American political system. This is basically what happens.


That's because both the real life political system and EVE have one thing in common: Short sighted naive human beings that don't realize they have ideological blind spots.

It's happened soooo many times in EVE. CCP comes out with something, the folks who proclaim they 'care' about the little guy rejoice (because this will SURELY break up the big blocs!!!!), only to find out that the thing CCP just did benefits the fat cats and screws the little guy.....again . So it turns out that the guys rejoicing were actually celebrating the fact that the people they support got hurt and their enemies thrived lol.

This is mainly because the little guy is the little guy because he has little guy (fail) ways (and not because of some fat cat injustice), and the fat cat is the fat cat because he LIVES to turn lemons into lemonade, which is how he got fat in the 1st place. No amount of real world legislating or game world feature creation can overcome this.
stg slate
State War Academy
Caldari State
#164 - 2016-02-16 14:16:43 UTC
Verlyn wrote:
stg slate wrote:
Verlyn wrote:
who have it given to them all on a silver platter.


I didn't realize new accounts got tons of free skill-points handed to them to catch up. I assumed new players just had the option to buy skill-points through injectors and would end up paying around 3x as much as older players have.


I didn't realize one had to actually count on his own numbers right before barely even replying to an entire post.


Forgive me for not being a native speaker, but I have no idea what that sentence actually says or implies.
David Semris
Doomheim
#165 - 2016-02-16 14:33:22 UTC  |  Edited by: David Semris
Terrorfrodo wrote:
The old system worked great for EVE for a very long time. But it was not sustainable in perpetuity. You can tell new players a thousand times that they can be successful and have fun even with 5m SP... if you are that new player and seemingly everyone else has 150m SP, it's just not fun. And buying a character someone else created is not for everyone... I for instance would rather have quit EVE than play a character I didn't make myself.

Now ambitious new players have a way to grind (or scam oder pay etc) their way to faster progress. Even if they never buy significant amounts of SP for lack of the ISK, they know that way is potentially available, which already changes the outlook. We veterans may have misgivings, but it was simply necessary for EVE's long-term viability.


I would very much agree with this if the skill system would be totally removed from the game. But I doubt new players will wish to invest hundreds/thousands of Euro to catch up (lazy to count how much it would cost) - they simply won´t have the ISK to pay for it with in-game currency. Also many new players may be simply discouraged by this (p2w) and might not even try the game if they know about this option ahead.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#166 - 2016-02-16 14:51:22 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
The old system worked great for EVE for a very long time. But it was not sustainable in perpetuity. You can tell new players a thousand times that they can be successful and have fun even with 5m SP... if you are that new player and seemingly everyone else has 150m SP, it's just not fun. And buying a character someone else created is not for everyone... I for instance would rather have quit EVE than play a character I didn't make myself.

Now ambitious new players have a way to grind (or scam oder pay etc) their way to faster progress. Even if they never buy significant amounts of SP for lack of the ISK, they know that way is potentially available, which already changes the outlook. We veterans may have misgivings, but it was simply necessary for EVE's long-term viability.


Frankly, telling new players that, even as they might feel outnumbered in SPs, they can just pay again to close that gap is not exactly a good selling point. "Pay again" being the issue here.
Osmonde Jr
Mission Running Slaves
#167 - 2016-02-16 15:19:08 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
The old system worked great for EVE for a very long time. But it was not sustainable in perpetuity. You can tell new players a thousand times that they can be successful and have fun even with 5m SP... if you are that new player and seemingly everyone else has 150m SP, it's just not fun. And buying a character someone else created is not for everyone... I for instance would rather have quit EVE than play a character I didn't make myself.

Now ambitious new players have a way to grind (or scam oder pay etc) their way to faster progress. Even if they never buy significant amounts of SP for lack of the ISK, they know that way is potentially available, which already changes the outlook. We veterans may have misgivings, but it was simply necessary for EVE's long-term viability.


Or if those new players have "friends" that are already in Eve and established they would pick up some skill injectors for them. It makes my life easier to give them 5 million sp off the bat and if they stay for the year give them another 20 million to top them off so they can fly at least half of the things I am flying.

If you actually took 5 secs to really examine their rants it really in nothing but a temper tantrum and that the game is yet again adapting. It really has no effect and the chances of new players dropping $600 (costs $300 if you already have alts) into a brand new game unless they have friends already in it is still pretty slim. Think a lot of the tears are from being unable to afford it when they first played the game is my guess Lol.
David Semris
Doomheim
#168 - 2016-02-16 15:34:59 UTC  |  Edited by: David Semris
Osmonde Jr wrote:
It really has no effect and the chances of new players dropping $600 (costs $300 if you already have alts) into a brand new game unless they have friends already in it is still pretty slim. Think a lot of the tears are from being unable to afford it when they first played the game is my guess Lol.


To use your numbers...

Boosting character to decent SPs in EVE online - 600 USD
Buying maxed out character in WoW - 60 USD

(Flying in virtual spaceship - priceless! The commercial just came to my mind... Lol)

Something went awry. Lol
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#169 - 2016-02-16 15:56:04 UTC
Osmonde Jr wrote:
Think a lot of the tears are from being unable to afford it when they first played the game is my guess Lol.


Some of us wanted our gameplay to mean something (in the context of the game of course). Personally, I wouldn't have started playing EVE if it offered this kind of "short cut for cash" option in 2007, which is why i don't start new games that do that now.

They introduced PLEX a year after I started playing and that was a stretch but I could understand needing to counter illegal RMT, but SP trading doesn't combat any ills (it stands to make them worse as the rich players get richer off the backs of new players).


Crystal Liche
ACME Mineral and Gas
#170 - 2016-02-16 16:04:18 UTC
EVE devalued itself the day they introduced PLEX and allowed character trading.

You could just buy a pre-trained char and pay for ships by selling plex.

This is just a new version of that, that was the end of the true sandbox.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#171 - 2016-02-16 16:15:52 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Osmonde Jr wrote:
Think a lot of the tears are from being unable to afford it when they first played the game is my guess Lol.


Some of us wanted our gameplay to mean something (in the context of the game of course). Personally, I wouldn't have started playing EVE if it offered this kind of "short cut for cash" option in 2007, which is why i don't start new games that do that now.

They introduced PLEX a year after I started playing and that was a stretch but I could understand needing to counter illegal RMT, but SP trading doesn't combat any ills (it stands to make them worse as the rich players get richer off the backs of new players).




WTF kind of gameplay is progressing while logged off? How does that even qualify as gameplay if the game does not even need to be open?

MAH GAMEPLAY OF BEING AFK IS BEING RUINED GUYZ!!!!
Ibutho Inkosi
Doomheim
#172 - 2016-02-16 16:16:59 UTC
By the by. If anyone's devalued the game, it's the ones that picked the one easy thing to do, ignoring all the rest,
just for lulz.

As long as the tale of the hunt is told by the hunter, and not the lion, it will favor the hunter.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#173 - 2016-02-16 16:28:17 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Osmonde Jr wrote:
Think a lot of the tears are from being unable to afford it when they first played the game is my guess Lol.


Some of us wanted our gameplay to mean something (in the context of the game of course). Personally, I wouldn't have started playing EVE if it offered this kind of "short cut for cash" option in 2007, which is why i don't start new games that do that now.

They introduced PLEX a year after I started playing and that was a stretch but I could understand needing to counter illegal RMT, but SP trading doesn't combat any ills (it stands to make them worse as the rich players get richer off the backs of new players).




WTF kind of gameplay is progressing while logged off? How does that even qualify as gameplay if the game does not even need to be open?

MAH GAMEPLAY OF BEING AFK IS BEING RUINED GUYZ!!!!


The 'gameplay' of time progression is/was that it forced you to take time. So you have to figure out how to play at level 3 of some kill until it got to level 4 and there was no way aorund that (except buying a character which was expensive and clunky).

That way of progressing (rather than grinding for or paying for "skills/experience" like in other games) slowed the game down, and gave actions meaning. Even more so when you could lose SP when getting podded if you didn't upgrade your clone.

"Meaning" has value in a video game (so does "loss", another thing CCP has dampend down over the last few years). in fact, it's the only thing that does because this is a game (a pass time). That's why other games use micro transactions, their games have nothing to offer after the 'new shiney' affect wheres off so they use micro transactions and pay to win features to suck the money out from the front end.

The fact that you don't understand why EVE's form of time based progression was so important isn't odd, because CCP just demonstrated they don't know either lol. You, (like them) will eventually learn, but it would have been better if they (and you) could have seen it coming before hand.
Avvy
Doomheim
#174 - 2016-02-16 16:28:53 UTC
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:

we now have a grind-for-skills "option."


I personally prefer that to the grind for PLEX option.
Avvy
Doomheim
#175 - 2016-02-16 16:32:35 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
The old system worked great for EVE for a very long time. But it was not sustainable in perpetuity.


Yeah, it did work for sometime, but the game is getting old it was no longer really working. So they had to do something. Question is did they choose the right option. It's not a bad option but I'm not sure as yet if it was the best option.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#176 - 2016-02-16 16:40:06 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Osmonde Jr wrote:
Think a lot of the tears are from being unable to afford it when they first played the game is my guess Lol.


Some of us wanted our gameplay to mean something (in the context of the game of course). Personally, I wouldn't have started playing EVE if it offered this kind of "short cut for cash" option in 2007, which is why i don't start new games that do that now.

They introduced PLEX a year after I started playing and that was a stretch but I could understand needing to counter illegal RMT, but SP trading doesn't combat any ills (it stands to make them worse as the rich players get richer off the backs of new players).




WTF kind of gameplay is progressing while logged off? How does that even qualify as gameplay if the game does not even need to be open?

MAH GAMEPLAY OF BEING AFK IS BEING RUINED GUYZ!!!!


The 'gameplay' of time progression is/was that it forced you to take time. So you have to figure out how to play at level 3 of some kill until it got to level 4 and there was no way aorund that (except buying a character which was expensive and clunky).

That way of progressing (rather than grinding for or paying for "skills/experience" like in other games) slowed the game down, and gave actions meaning. Even more so when you could lose SP when getting podded if you didn't upgrade your clone.

"Meaning" has value in a video game (so does "loss", another thing CCP has dampend down over the last few years). in fact, it's the only thing that does because this is a game (a pass time). That's why other games use micro transactions, their games have nothing to offer after the 'new shiney' affect wheres off so they use micro transactions and pay to win features to suck the money out from the front end.

The fact that you don't understand why EVE's form of time based progression was so important isn't odd, because CCP just demonstrated they don't know either lol. You, (like them) will eventually learn, but it would have been better if they (and you) could have seen it coming before hand.


1- Buy PLEX
2- Sell PLEX on market
3- Buy character
4- Skip grind
5- ???????
6- Profit

Ever since that existed, the slow grind was officially only a speed bump over which you could jump. Pretending the game was more "pure" before SP trading is silly. The only difference is you can make smaller transfer. Hoarding SP in the same character has lower effectiveness anyway.I for example will probably never get a good use of my freighter skill as long as I am in Null, Those SP on an alt would of been a much better options which mean an alt is still a better option in most case. The only downside of alts is support skill have to be "earned" again. The rest is pure bonus since you can use the character for different jobs much more easily.

Everyone who thinks about it know alts are better in at least 99% of the use case in the game.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#177 - 2016-02-16 16:41:02 UTC
Avvy wrote:
Terrorfrodo wrote:
The old system worked great for EVE for a very long time. But it was not sustainable in perpetuity.


Yeah, it did work for sometime, but the game is getting old it was no longer really working. So they had to do something. Question is did they choose the right option. It's not a bad option but I'm not sure as yet if it was the best option.


Nope. IT was still working. The game was not failing and even if you want to say it is, the SP system is not the reason for it.
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#178 - 2016-02-16 16:45:12 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
That way of progressing (rather than grinding for or paying for "skills/experience" like in other games) slowed the game down, and gave actions meaning.


Am I correct in thinking that you would object to SP trading even if the Extractors were free? That is, don't involve any real-world money cost? (And would you object to SP trading if PLEX and AUR didn't exist at all?)
Avvy
Doomheim
#179 - 2016-02-16 16:46:06 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Terrorfrodo wrote:
The old system worked great for EVE for a very long time. But it was not sustainable in perpetuity.


Yeah, it did work for sometime, but the game is getting old it was no longer really working. So they had to do something. Question is did they choose the right option. It's not a bad option but I'm not sure as yet if it was the best option.


Nope. IT was still working. The game was not failing and even if you want to say it is, the SP system is not the reason for it.



There's more than one reason, amongst them how long it takes go get into the game, in-game communications plus others
Avvy
Doomheim
#180 - 2016-02-16 16:47:30 UTC
Eli Stan wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
That way of progressing (rather than grinding for or paying for "skills/experience" like in other games) slowed the game down, and gave actions meaning.


Am I correct in thinking that you would object to SP trading even if the Extractors were free? That is, don't involve any real-world money cost? (And would you object to SP trading if PLEX and AUR didn't exist at all?)


The extractors not being free don't matter, although they are not cosmetic items they are just containers.