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[March] Speed changes and Orbit paths

First post
Author
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#21 - 2016-02-09 14:30:34 UTC
Bandalon Ominus wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


We still highly advise players to learn how to use manual piloting for best performance, as the orbit command does not include any advanced logic for managing transversal or avoiding slingshot maneuvers.


I still highly advise to increase the tickrate to at least 4/s to make manual piloting a nonsluggish experiece, or at least consider 2/s.. I know EVE isnt supppsed to be a twitch game but irresponsiveness is not an adequate and enjoyable way of achieving that.. Its 2016! Servers should be able to handle that. Going from any responsive game to EVE is quite an off putting experiece.

id rather have a bigger chance of tidi while having a much much better experience during (lets be fair) the majority of the time where there is no tidi.


At how many pilots in X systems do you want TiDi to start? Because remember, each node don't handle only your system with 6 dudes in it but a bunch of systems with potentially a hundred in one of them half way across the galaxy who would still TiDi you down because the node has to handle all of that.

They also can't re-map nodes on the fly unless they made a change I can't remember about.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#22 - 2016-02-09 14:32:21 UTC
Bandalon Ominus wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


We still highly advise players to learn how to use manual piloting for best performance, as the orbit command does not include any advanced logic for managing transversal or avoiding slingshot maneuvers.


I still highly advise to increase the tickrate to at least 4/s to make manual piloting a nonsluggish experiece, or at least consider 2/s.. I know EVE isnt supppsed to be a twitch game but irresponsiveness is not an adequate and enjoyable way of achieving that.. Its 2016! Servers should be able to handle that. Going from any responsive game to EVE is quite an off putting experiece.

id rather have a bigger chance of tidi while having a much much better experience during (lets be fair) the majority of the time where there is no tidi.

I'd absolutely love to do that, but it's also not a trivial task and would reduce our performance headroom quite a bit.

Hopefully someday.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Dr Cedric
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#23 - 2016-02-09 15:07:12 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

I'd absolutely love to do that, but it's also not a trivial task and would reduce our performance headroom quite a bit.

Hopefully someday.


This is going to sound snippy, but I promise its not! Thanks for a genuine and honest response to a random question. I love hearing from you Dev-types and it really makes my day when I get a regular, conversational post.

Thanks :)


Cedric

Esnaelc Sin'led
Lonesome Capsuleer
#24 - 2016-02-09 15:09:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Esnaelc Sin'led
MORE MORE MORE of those 'little tweaks' PLEASEEE

♥♥♥♥

You could as well bend over guns tracking mecanics code. ♥
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#25 - 2016-02-09 15:10:48 UTC
big miker wrote:

I asume you have the same experience flying solo battleships against the frigate menace?


Found the 0.1%
Tragot Gomndor
Three Sword Inc
#26 - 2016-02-09 15:29:19 UTC
As long the world visibily in a bunch of bubbles is like zero and there is no keypress for double click the center of screen, there will be no real manual flying for me...

NONONONONONO TO CAPS IN HIGHSEC NO

Zechariah Bragg
Jaded.
Riplomacy
#27 - 2016-02-09 16:38:00 UTC
Today IS a good day to die!

If you don't live in W-Space.....your opinions are invalid.

Zarvox Toral
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2016-02-09 16:42:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarvox Toral
big miker wrote:
Bad change to be honest. I'm all for piloting skill / knowledge, but this takes away one of those cool tricks which again seperates good pilots from bad pilots. This is a major buff to any ******** interceptor pilot around hitting the orbit button. Energy neutralizers are a MUST HAVE if you are flying a large ship, since the web trick won't work at all after the change.



With all respect, the mechanic was broken. Yes, people should manually orbit. Yes, the broken mechanic did provide certain playstyles with a way of killing hard to hit tacklers. It doesn't take away from the fact that the only reason this gave certain playstyles (yours, mine, and others) an advantage was because it was broken, badly, in the first place (changing velocity slightly shouldn't cause your ship to almost stop half the time).

Keeping a mechanic broken, when it can easily be fixed, just because it benefits certain people's playstyles (including mine) doesn't make any sense to me. Fair enough if you want to suggest or lobby a new way of handling tacklers from a solo BS perspective, no worries, but I think defending a clearly broken mechanic is not the way to go about it imo.
Gliese Casserres
Confused Bunnies Inc
#29 - 2016-02-09 16:45:20 UTC
Finally I can stop cursing in anomalies. Hurray for logical orbit mechanics!
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#30 - 2016-02-09 16:52:47 UTC
So long, web trick

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#31 - 2016-02-09 17:08:26 UTC
Oh noes!!!111eleven

That was one of those undockumented things that could make your day and confuse pilots that would use the orbit command in the first place.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Kagehisa Shintaro
Back Door Burglars
#32 - 2016-02-09 17:32:30 UTC
Does this mean the end of Webbing Freighters off gates through Uedama/Niarja (to name a few)? I know the trick is used in combat, but Freighters can be made to warp backwards in certain situations, making it relatively safe to travel through certain areas if you have a webbing partner. Will we now have to wait til the Freighter is fully, or almost, aligned in the right direction?

Any company can ship. We space ship. - CCP Guard

Zarvox Toral
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2016-02-09 17:36:30 UTC
Kagehisa Shintaro wrote:
Does this mean the end of Webbing Freighters off gates through Uedama/Niarja (to name a few)? I know the trick is used in combat, but Freighters can be made to warp backwards in certain situations, making it relatively safe to travel through certain areas if you have a webbing partner. Will we now have to wait til the Freighter is fully, or almost, aligned in the right direction?


This will still work - unrelated phenomena :D
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#34 - 2016-02-09 17:42:09 UTC
Kagehisa Shintaro wrote:
Does this mean the end of Webbing Freighters off gates through Uedama/Niarja (to name a few)? I know the trick is used in combat, but Freighters can be made to warp backwards in certain situations, making it relatively safe to travel through certain areas if you have a webbing partner. Will we now have to wait til the Freighter is fully, or almost, aligned in the right direction?


If you were orbiting with your freighter to get into warp I hate to tell you this but you were doing it wrong.
Kagehisa Shintaro
Back Door Burglars
#35 - 2016-02-09 17:50:16 UTC
I'm not supposed to orbit my friend in his Rapier? Doh!!! Ugh

Any company can ship. We space ship. - CCP Guard

Annia Aurel
J-CORP
Goonswarm Federation
#36 - 2016-02-09 18:07:01 UTC
There is a blatant error in Eve's physics calculations related to orbiting.

Angular velocity is calculated in an approximate fashion that takes into account the relative speed and position of the two ships in question but ignores their rotation.

Easy example, a frigate orbits a stationary target in a circular orbit. In real world physics, the angular velocity of the stationary target, as seen by the orbiting frigate is zero. In other words, the guns of the frigate will always point at the target without the need to turn in any way. Build a paper model if you don't believe me.

In Eve physics, on the other hand, the same 'angular velocity' is calculated for both ships. Which is only correct if none of the ships are changing direction and is thus plain wrong in case of orbiting.

Now, the error would be very simple to fix by calculating velocities based on position changes between server ticks and factoring in the corresponding rotation (just subtract this rotation from the present wrong formula, and voila, everything is correct).

Now, it can be argued that a) this will complicate calculations and b) it is desireable from a gameplay point of view.

a) Can only be answered by the devs

b) Is up for debate. I never get why orbiting in a fast frigate should give me any problems with tracking. A change of the formula would benefit people who actively pilot their ships, would benefit people in smaller ships (new players anyone?) and would make much more sense to the dedicated physics loving space nerd

Thoughts?
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#37 - 2016-02-09 18:20:23 UTC
Dr Cedric
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#38 - 2016-02-09 18:23:58 UTC
I'm surprised that with all of the deeper mechanics and code they have been looking at that they haven't looked at gun tracking and some of the other formulas. I'm sure there is room for improvement somewhere in there, whether its for server performance, or realism or something.

As far as I know, after the end of POS's once Citadels are a thing, the tracking formula is one of the only things not touched since the beginning of the game!

Cedric

Zarvox Toral
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2016-02-09 19:16:28 UTC
Annia Aurel wrote:
There is a blatant error in Eve's physics calculations related to orbiting.

Angular velocity is calculated in an approximate fashion that takes into account the relative speed and position of the two ships in question but ignores their rotation.

Easy example, a frigate orbits a stationary target in a circular orbit. In real world physics, the angular velocity of the stationary target, as seen by the orbiting frigate is zero. In other words, the guns of the frigate will always point at the target without the need to turn in any way. Build a paper model if you don't believe me.

In Eve physics, on the other hand, the same 'angular velocity' is calculated for both ships. Which is only correct if none of the ships are changing direction and is thus plain wrong in case of orbiting.

Now, the error would be very simple to fix by calculating velocities based on position changes between server ticks and factoring in the corresponding rotation (just subtract this rotation from the present wrong formula, and voila, everything is correct).

Now, it can be argued that a) this will complicate calculations and b) it is desireable from a gameplay point of view.

a) Can only be answered by the devs

b) Is up for debate. I never get why orbiting in a fast frigate should give me any problems with tracking. A change of the formula would benefit people who actively pilot their ships, would benefit people in smaller ships (new players anyone?) and would make much more sense to the dedicated physics loving space nerd

Thoughts?


Absolutely agree with this.
Esnaelc Sin'led
Lonesome Capsuleer
#40 - 2016-02-09 19:42:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Esnaelc Sin'led
Annia Aurel wrote:
There is a blatant error in Eve's physics calculations related to orbiting.

Angular velocity is calculated in an approximate fashion that takes into account the relative speed and position of the two ships in question but ignores their rotation.

Easy example, a frigate orbits a stationary target in a circular orbit. In real world physics, the angular velocity of the stationary target, as seen by the orbiting frigate is zero. In other words, the guns of the frigate will always point at the target without the need to turn in any way. Build a paper model if you don't believe me.

In Eve physics, on the other hand, the same 'angular velocity' is calculated for both ships. Which is only correct if none of the ships are changing direction and is thus plain wrong in case of orbiting.

Now, the error would be very simple to fix by calculating velocities based on position changes between server ticks and factoring in the corresponding rotation (just subtract this rotation from the present wrong formula, and voila, everything is correct).

Now, it can be argued that a) this will complicate calculations and b) it is desireable from a gameplay point of view.

a) Can only be answered by the devs

b) Is up for debate. I never get why orbiting in a fast frigate should give me any problems with tracking. A change of the formula would benefit people who actively pilot their ships, would benefit people in smaller ships (new players anyone?) and would make much more sense to the dedicated physics loving space nerd

Thoughts?


That's what i was talking about with guns tracking mecanics.
+1

That would add so much to the actual gameplay if it was rewrote.