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Jita: Live Market Update - Skill Injector Prices Crashing
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pajedas
Doomheim
#181 - 2016-02-12 01:29:50 UTC
Barrett Fruitcake wrote:
Takes 1 of some action to get to Level B. Takes 2 more to get to C. = Diminishing return for your effort.
Get 10 benefit from some thing at this level. Get 8 benefit at next level = Diminishing return for your consumption

I honestly don't care to argue that point. We'll say you're 100% right.

Now, that effort is equal for each player as they progress through the training process (1:1).

If someone with 200m SP's decides to train mining to level 1, he will progress at the same rate as anyone else, depending on attribute distribution and implants.

🐇
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#182 - 2016-02-12 02:17:27 UTC
pajedas wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
So are these if you want to include progressive expense as "1:1". Characters will all have the same return at the same SP, much as they have the same diminishing returns on training time as they advance in skill levels.

I wouldn't call it a diminishing return, per se. Longer training time to get progressively better at something makes sense to me.

Go to your local market and see if they change an old rich guy more for a pound of coffee than a poor young guy.
That metaphor doesn't really apply since the cost of our "can of coffee" is the same for the rich and poor. Wealth, which is Isk rather than SP, has nothing to do with it. With one the can doesn't go as far since he's a caffeine junky and needs a whole pot to get going on his day, the other only needs a single cup as he just started drinking coffee for the same effect.

The rich or poor guy could be either one, and they still pay the same price per can.
Barrett Fruitcake
Doomheim
#183 - 2016-02-12 02:45:48 UTC
pajedas wrote:
Barrett Fruitcake wrote:
Takes 1 of some action to get to Level B. Takes 2 more to get to C. = Diminishing return for your effort.
Get 10 benefit from some thing at this level. Get 8 benefit at next level = Diminishing return for your consumption

I honestly don't care to argue that point. We'll say you're 100% right.

Now, that effort is equal for each player as they progress through the training process (1:1).

If someone with 200m SP's decides to train mining to level 1, he will progress at the same rate as anyone else, depending on attribute distribution and implants.


One is a diminishing return based upon current level of the specific skill.
One is a diminishing return based upon current SP total.

You can have diminishing returns based upon different things, as shown.
Now, the fact you don't like it that is different.

The issue is the lack of logic in your specific argument, not the overall argument itself.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#184 - 2016-02-12 03:00:06 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
pajedas wrote:
Sucks to have over 80m SP's!!!
Au contraire my fellow forum person.

My 80M+ characters are quite happy where they are and the only reason they acquire more SPs is that it would be kind of dumb to be subbed and not training something.

Mr Epeen Cool



Have to agree, my two characters with over 80 million...quite happy with them. My main, the one I'm posting on, very happy, almost no crap skills, IMO. Mining to a bare minimum (couldn't even fill a single injector). Almost all combat.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#185 - 2016-02-12 03:09:27 UTC
Imalia Bloodlines wrote:
Since this is a thread about speculations, let me ask, should I sell now my injectors or wait a bit?
Buy/sell order prices will eventually converge to roughly 0.54-0.56 PLEX, since SP and extractor costs are tied to PLEX price. So, if you think PLEX prices will rise significantly, then hold on to them. However, PLEX prices have had difficulty getting and staying north of 1.2B, since CCP has been announcing PLEX sales as the price starts to slope up.

IMO, best to sell now, with a high markup, in a region without a major hub, and thus fewer sell orders. In some regions, injectors have sold for more than 950M ISK each. This roughly corresponding to a PLEX price of 1.75B ISK, which I don't think we'll reach for quite a while.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#186 - 2016-02-12 03:26:10 UTC
Chasida wrote:
Well that was an astronomical amount of ISK used!!
With a return of only 150 000 skill pr Injector, you have used 677 + 176 = 853 Injectors = roughly 597 BILLION ISK!!! Shocked
And for those 597 BILLION ISK!!! you got roughly 2 741 days (roughly 91 months) worth of training.

597 BILLION ISK is something most Eve players cannot even dream of making/hoarding. How you have been able to hoard that (pluss whatever you got left) with only max 2 accounts, maybe even one, is the question. Maybe mining for 10 years Ugh

597B ISK really isn't astronomical, not these days. Most of the Incursion farmers can bank that easily, as well as many of the market traders, not to mention players like Gevlon. From looking at the weekly kills on minerbumping.com, a lot of the CODE members -and their victims - seem to have no problem padding their wallets, as well.

Keep in mind, too, that when you do have that much ISK, and making billions more, per week or per day, there isn't really anything to spend it on.

So, after you have already stockpiled enough PLEX to sub all of your accounts for 5-10 years, then buying SP, even at 150K per injector, is worth it. In your example, the player in question managed to skip 7.5 years worth of training - that is not too bad for ISK that would otherwise just be sitting idle in his/her wallet.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#187 - 2016-02-12 04:46:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Sizeof Void wrote:
Chasida wrote:
Well that was an astronomical amount of ISK used!!
With a return of only 150 000 skill pr Injector, you have used 677 + 176 = 853 Injectors = roughly 597 BILLION ISK!!! Shocked
And for those 597 BILLION ISK!!! you got roughly 2 741 days (roughly 91 months) worth of training.

597 BILLION ISK is something most Eve players cannot even dream of making/hoarding. How you have been able to hoard that (pluss whatever you got left) with only max 2 accounts, maybe even one, is the question. Maybe mining for 10 years Ugh

597B ISK really isn't astronomical, not these days. Most of the Incursion farmers can bank that easily, as well as many of the market traders, not to mention players like Gevlon. From looking at the weekly kills on minerbumping.com, a lot of the CODE members -and their victims - seem to have no problem padding their wallets, as well.

Keep in mind, too, that when you do have that much ISK, and making billions more, per week or per day, there isn't really anything to spend it on.

So, after you have already stockpiled enough PLEX to sub all of your accounts for 5-10 years, then buying SP, even at 150K per injector, is worth it. In your example, the player in question managed to skip 7.5 years worth of training - that is not too bad for ISK that would otherwise just be sitting idle in his/her wallet.


Have to agree, keep in mind that about 1 trillion ISK enters the game economy per day. Granted not all of it goes into 1 or even 5 players pocket, but there is alot of IKS entering the economy.

But it may very well be that SP trading is not only an SP sink...it could be an ISK sink.

ISK -> PLEX -> Aurum -> Extractors -> Injectors -> Another Player's ISK

The ISK at the start of this process is sunk out of game, the ISK at the end is moved between walllets so the net result is less ISK.

Yes, no? Feedback appreciated.

Edit:

Have to wonder....are CCP crazy...crazy like foxes?

My initial view was SP trading in this fashion was...a good idea. Then I thought, no maybe bad.

Now I am wondering...maybe it is good....

High SP characters are likely the source of the SP on the market. Maybe this is good to the extent that new players see old players as having some sort of insurmountable advantage to to massive SP differentials. Now some of that SP is moving to new players.

Second, SP are simply being sunk out of game. That is, the difference between high SP characters and low SP characters has narrowed, on average--in terms of SP we have moved back in time...back to when players online was growing? IDK, but maybe.

The market does not seem to have caused any major problems....yet, and that last part is critical. Will, for example, SP farms create a problem? IDK to be quite honest.

But in looking at this....

Does it bring in more money for CCP? If yes, then good as they can continue to operate and provide the game I like.

Does SP trading in its current form mean SP in the game, in total is increasing? No! If anything SP stays the same or decreases, based on anecdotes, total SP in game in decreasing.

Is there a problem with this new market...too soon to say, IMO. Give a couple to three months then we'll see.

Maybe my initial view was right....v0v

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Aiwha
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#188 - 2016-02-12 04:50:35 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
Chasida wrote:
Well that was an astronomical amount of ISK used!!
With a return of only 150 000 skill pr Injector, you have used 677 + 176 = 853 Injectors = roughly 597 BILLION ISK!!! Shocked
And for those 597 BILLION ISK!!! you got roughly 2 741 days (roughly 91 months) worth of training.

597 BILLION ISK is something most Eve players cannot even dream of making/hoarding. How you have been able to hoard that (pluss whatever you got left) with only max 2 accounts, maybe even one, is the question. Maybe mining for 10 years Ugh

597B ISK really isn't astronomical, not these days. Most of the Incursion farmers can bank that easily, as well as many of the market traders, not to mention players like Gevlon. From looking at the weekly kills on minerbumping.com, a lot of the CODE members -and their victims - seem to have no problem padding their wallets, as well.

Keep in mind, too, that when you do have that much ISK, and making billions more, per week or per day, there isn't really anything to spend it on.

So, after you have already stockpiled enough PLEX to sub all of your accounts for 5-10 years, then buying SP, even at 150K per injector, is worth it. In your example, the player in question managed to skip 7.5 years worth of training - that is not too bad for ISK that would otherwise just be sitting idle in his/her wallet.


Have to agree, keep in mind that about 1 trillion ISK enters the game economy per day. Granted not all of it goes into 1 or even 5 players pocket, but there is alot of IKS entering the economy.

But it may very well be that SP trading is not only an SP sink...it could be an ISK sink.

ISK -> PLEX -> Aurum -> Extractors -> Injectors -> Another Player's ISK

The ISK at the start of this process is sunk out of game, the ISK at the end is moved between walllets so the net result is less ISK.

Yes, no? Feedback appreciated.



No, the isk that goes to PLEX goes into the pocket of a player that paid cash for the PLEX. SP trading is not an isk sink in any way shape or form.

Sanity is fun leaving the body.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#189 - 2016-02-12 04:55:41 UTC
Aiwha wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
Chasida wrote:
Well that was an astronomical amount of ISK used!!
With a return of only 150 000 skill pr Injector, you have used 677 + 176 = 853 Injectors = roughly 597 BILLION ISK!!! Shocked
And for those 597 BILLION ISK!!! you got roughly 2 741 days (roughly 91 months) worth of training.

597 BILLION ISK is something most Eve players cannot even dream of making/hoarding. How you have been able to hoard that (pluss whatever you got left) with only max 2 accounts, maybe even one, is the question. Maybe mining for 10 years Ugh

597B ISK really isn't astronomical, not these days. Most of the Incursion farmers can bank that easily, as well as many of the market traders, not to mention players like Gevlon. From looking at the weekly kills on minerbumping.com, a lot of the CODE members -and their victims - seem to have no problem padding their wallets, as well.

Keep in mind, too, that when you do have that much ISK, and making billions more, per week or per day, there isn't really anything to spend it on.

So, after you have already stockpiled enough PLEX to sub all of your accounts for 5-10 years, then buying SP, even at 150K per injector, is worth it. In your example, the player in question managed to skip 7.5 years worth of training - that is not too bad for ISK that would otherwise just be sitting idle in his/her wallet.


Have to agree, keep in mind that about 1 trillion ISK enters the game economy per day. Granted not all of it goes into 1 or even 5 players pocket, but there is alot of IKS entering the economy.

But it may very well be that SP trading is not only an SP sink...it could be an ISK sink.

ISK -> PLEX -> Aurum -> Extractors -> Injectors -> Another Player's ISK

The ISK at the start of this process is sunk out of game, the ISK at the end is moved between walllets so the net result is less ISK.

Yes, no? Feedback appreciated.



No, the isk that goes to PLEX goes into the pocket of a player that paid cash for the PLEX. SP trading is not an isk sink in any way shape or form.



The ISK sink is that you pay say 300 billion ISK for SP, but only get 100 billion ISK of SP.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#190 - 2016-02-12 05:00:06 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Aiwha wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
Chasida wrote:
Well that was an astronomical amount of ISK used!!
With a return of only 150 000 skill pr Injector, you have used 677 + 176 = 853 Injectors = roughly 597 BILLION ISK!!! Shocked
And for those 597 BILLION ISK!!! you got roughly 2 741 days (roughly 91 months) worth of training.

597 BILLION ISK is something most Eve players cannot even dream of making/hoarding. How you have been able to hoard that (pluss whatever you got left) with only max 2 accounts, maybe even one, is the question. Maybe mining for 10 years Ugh

597B ISK really isn't astronomical, not these days. Most of the Incursion farmers can bank that easily, as well as many of the market traders, not to mention players like Gevlon. From looking at the weekly kills on minerbumping.com, a lot of the CODE members -and their victims - seem to have no problem padding their wallets, as well.

Keep in mind, too, that when you do have that much ISK, and making billions more, per week or per day, there isn't really anything to spend it on.

So, after you have already stockpiled enough PLEX to sub all of your accounts for 5-10 years, then buying SP, even at 150K per injector, is worth it. In your example, the player in question managed to skip 7.5 years worth of training - that is not too bad for ISK that would otherwise just be sitting idle in his/her wallet.


Have to agree, keep in mind that about 1 trillion ISK enters the game economy per day. Granted not all of it goes into 1 or even 5 players pocket, but there is alot of IKS entering the economy.

But it may very well be that SP trading is not only an SP sink...it could be an ISK sink.

ISK -> PLEX -> Aurum -> Extractors -> Injectors -> Another Player's ISK

The ISK at the start of this process is sunk out of game, the ISK at the end is moved between walllets so the net result is less ISK.

Yes, no? Feedback appreciated.



No, the isk that goes to PLEX goes into the pocket of a player that paid cash for the PLEX. SP trading is not an isk sink in any way shape or form.



The ISK sink is that you pay say 300 billion ISK for SP, but only get 100 billion ISK of SP.

It's an SP sink, not an ISK sink. There's no ISK removed from the economy anywhere in this equation except for sales tax and broker's fees.
Avvy
Doomheim
#191 - 2016-02-12 05:09:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Teckos Pech wrote:



The ISK sink is that you pay say 300 billion ISK for SP, but only get 100 billion ISK of SP.



You are actually paying for the filled injectors.

What's lost isn't isk, it's sp when someone retrieves less than what was put in.




Edit:

You can say that you've lost x amount worth of sp. But only sp is actually lost from the game, so for that reason it's just an sp sink.
Aiwha
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#192 - 2016-02-12 05:54:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Aiwha
An ISK sink would be if CCP required you to pay isk in order to initially acquire the extractors.




Think of the entire EVE economy as one big wallet. Things like ratting ticks put money into the wallet, things like skillbook purchases from NPC corps take money out of it. Anything player>player however just moves money around inside the wallet.

Sanity is fun leaving the body.
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#193 - 2016-02-12 13:02:22 UTC
Kalgeroth wrote:
Here are my price predictions:

Per Injector
Arrow Day 1-7: 650-700m
Arrow Day 8-14: 750-800m
Arrow Day 15-30: 850-950m
Arrow Day 30-60: 1bn-1.2bn

Then, a slow decline as SP alt farms start extracting in more volume. Final price: 800m.


The premium value of 800m you pay for skill injectors over plex, coz instant gratification, is spot on.
This in turn will rubberband the price of plex upwards, to the predicted 1,666 B at around fanfest What?
source: http://show.gamingradio.net/2015/09/27/this-week-in-new-eden-pizza-mmm-pizza-27th-september-2015/

Regards, a Freelancer

ps: skill injectors are like drugs m'kay, once you use it you want more but with diminishing returns.

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF
Barrett Fruitcake
Doomheim
#194 - 2016-02-12 13:06:08 UTC
Yep, ISK sinks are when ISK is paid to a non-player and it simply dis-appears from the game.
ISK faucets are when ISK is created out of thing air like ratting and mission bounties and rewards.

Anything else is wealth redistribution within the game, like moon goo or minerals. Though, moon goo allowed for insane amounts of wealth redistribution to the very few while normal mining did not. But that's another topic.
NUBIARN
Brutal Ballerinas
#195 - 2016-02-12 13:56:06 UTC
Barrett Fruitcake wrote:
Yep, ISK sinks are when ISK is paid to a non-player and it simply dis-appears from the game.
ISK faucets are when ISK is created out of thing air like ratting and mission bounties and rewards.

Anything else is wealth redistribution within the game, like moon goo or minerals. Though, moon goo allowed for insane amounts of wealth redistribution to the very few while normal mining did not. But that's another topic.




the first person I have read on the forums that actually understands this !!
Dr Mibbles
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#196 - 2016-02-12 14:56:06 UTC
Barrett Fruitcake wrote:
Yep, ISK sinks are when ISK is paid to a non-player and it simply dis-appears from the game.
ISK faucets are when ISK is created out of thing air like ratting and mission bounties and rewards.

Anything else is wealth redistribution within the game, like moon goo or minerals. Though, moon goo allowed for insane amounts of wealth redistribution to the very few while normal mining did not. But that's another topic.



Spot on.

Skill Injectors are a great redistribution of wealth, as they finally give players who 'have it all' something to waste their vast ISK reserves on. I'm not sure what EVE's gini coefficient is, but I'm betting that it's pretty shocking.
pajedas
Doomheim
#197 - 2016-02-12 15:06:59 UTC
Spaceman(2) passes Dr Caymus(3)!

Stromgren is holding onto his new #1 spot!

🐇
Chasida
Instant Annihilation
#198 - 2016-02-13 09:58:24 UTC
As of now, looks like most predictions here about prices are wrong.
Both Plex and Injector prices are falling...
I held onto a few Plex since I also were guessing prices would rise, but they are falling, so I just sold them.
Captain IQ
Innocent Traders Ltd
#199 - 2016-02-15 16:53:58 UTC
Yup, we knew they'd drop, but there will still be a gap for a while between milked sp and the current character cleaning.

The only thing I'll admit to is that I had no idea that Plex would actually drop! Interesting what players are selling to buy injectors/extractors, it's like a firesale for some items.
Avvy
Doomheim
#200 - 2016-02-15 17:12:59 UTC
Chasida wrote:
As of now, looks like most predictions here about prices are wrong.
Both Plex and Injector prices are falling...
I held onto a few Plex since I also were guessing prices would rise, but they are falling, so I just sold them.



I think the point of this thread was to drum up some interest and stimulate the market.