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Safer hauling
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Professor Alphane
Les Corsaires Diable
#1 - 2011-12-15 14:29:15 UTC
Is there anything I can do ( setup or tactics wise ) too make my indy a harder target for pirates to takedown?

I haven't the SP or ISK for a blockade runner and am hoping to reduce my chances of getting 'ganked' or at least improve my chances of escape if targeted.

Any advice would be appreciated cheers

[center]YOU MUST THINK FIRST....[/center] [center]"I sit with the broken angels clutching at straws and nursing our scars.." - Marillion [/center] [center]The wise man watches the rise and fall of fools from afar[/center]
Skorpynekomimi
#2 - 2011-12-15 14:38:35 UTC
- Don't go into lowsec.
- Don't haul valuable **** around in it.
- Tank it as best you can.
- Alternatively, DON'T tank it, don't fit it, don't fly it with implants, don't haul expensive **** in it. Consider them disposable.

Economic PVP
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#3 - 2011-12-15 15:13:03 UTC
ISK tank it.

Don't fly with more than 1 Bill in a Freighter, etc.

Really expensive stuff goes in an Orca corp hangar.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#4 - 2011-12-15 15:37:14 UTC
Use a courier service like Red Frog.

Avoid common gank systems. For example, around sivala use to be a common ganking spot. There's a new one between amarr and jita you should avoid.

Implants and skillbooks should be used right away and not moved unless you are selling them.

That said, don't be overly paranoid to the point of hindering yourself and your fun. Sure that kestrel with some 70 plexes in his hold wasn't thinking straight. However, people fly around with large amounts of isk often and are not targeted at all. Carrying around 100 unstacked implants would be trouble, but I doubt a cargo hold full of one stack of trit or the like won't make you a tempting Target.

Also, make sure to train some of the basic fitting skills. Hull upgrades and I believe shield management to 3 or 4 are not long training times but can help.
Gronn
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2011-12-15 15:44:20 UTC
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
Use a courier service like Red Frog.

Avoid common gank systems. For example, around sivala use to be a common ganking spot. There's a new one between amarr and jita you should avoid.

Implants and skillbooks should be used right away and not moved unless you are selling them.

That said, don't be overly paranoid to the point of hindering yourself and your fun. Sure that kestrel with some 70 plexes in his hold wasn't thinking straight. However, people fly around with large amounts of isk often and are not targeted at all. Carrying around 100 unstacked implants would be trouble, but I doubt a cargo hold full of one stack of trit or the like won't make you a tempting Target.

Also, make sure to train some of the basic fitting skills. Hull upgrades and I believe shield management to 3 or 4 are not long training times but can help.


I second Red Frog Freight, they've recently moved stuff for 2 of my accounts (3 loads each) and everything was delivered within 12 hours. First class service.

Anway, to answer the original question. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose!
KevLor I
Zephyr Corp
#6 - 2011-12-15 16:11:07 UTC  |  Edited by: KevLor I
Are you flying around in hi sec and worrying about getting ganked? Or low-sec? Totally different issues. But anyway:


  1. In hi sec, get the largest industrial you can, even if you do not need the cargo. This gives you more EHP for the same cargo;
  2. Don't haul too much value at once. Rule of thumb is somewhere around 1 bil for a freighter and 100 mil (I think) for an industrial;
  3. Don't autopilot. If you do, make a passive tank setup [add shields, limit rigs that lower EHP, replace unneeded lows with armor/armor mods]
  4. when piloting around manually, you might consider a DCU. Useless with autopilot, but activated it at each system and it adds loads of EHP.
  5. Check your route on the map. Lots of player kills in hi-sec are a bad thing. It might be a war, but large numbers often indicate SS gankers and their targets. Niraja between Jita and Amarr sometimes has SS gangs.
  6. for small, valuable loads, use a freighter or a small, fast ship (Cov Ops, or fast frigate). You will warp so fast no one will have time to scan you, much less decide to gank you. Yes, you might get hit randomly, but it happens very rarely.
  7. Finally, if you are going to haul on a regular basis, get a freighter or deep space transport skilled up. My DST was once the target of a SS gank attempt (while on autopilot) by some apparently inexperienced (or stupid) gankers, and it arrived at its destination with armor gone and hull damaged, but intact. No idea on what attacked it, since I was afk, but it has nice EHP and a +2 warp stab to-boot.
Tekota
The Freighter Factory
#7 - 2011-12-15 16:12:27 UTC
Don't carry too valuable a cargo. Very (VERY) rough finger in the air guess, 100m or less in a T1 indy will *probably* cause most hi-sec suicide gankers not bother. If they're gunning for giggles however you could be carrying a single teddy bear and be a target.

Always think EHP - boosters and reppers are useless against a suicide gank, if you're lucky they may get one cycle in. Instead fit extenders and hardners, as many as you can. If you don't need the cargo space on a particular run, consider swapping out a cargo expander for a Damage Control Unit.

Never fly autopilot.

Stay out of lowsec until you have the experience and/or skill to scout systems well beforehand, and even then bank on getting nailed in lowsec at some point (and at regular points) no matter how careful or skilled you are.

Pay particular attention to places like Niarja and Uedama - 0.5 security systems on the route between popular trade hubs.

Never fly autopilot.

Never fly (or haul) what you can't afford to lose.

Never fly autopilot.
KevLor I
Zephyr Corp
#8 - 2011-12-15 16:16:49 UTC
Eh, if you have two accounts, or just want to go eat lunch, and want to fly a load of trit 10 jumps in a mammoth in the meantime, go ahead and do it. Life is too short to manually pilot your life away Big smile. On the other hand, if you are carrying a load of faction mods and plex, hire a service and get it insured. In between, manually pilot.
Tekota
The Freighter Factory
#9 - 2011-12-15 16:26:10 UTC
KevLor I wrote:
Eh, if you have two accounts, or just want to go eat lunch, and want to fly a load of trit 10 jumps in a mammoth in the meantime, go ahead and do it. Life is too short to manually pilot your life away Big smile. On the other hand, if you are carrying a load of faction mods and plex, hire a service and get it insured. In between, manually pilot.


Oh certainly, it's a calculated risk, and to me and you if a mammoth full of trit goes pop we just go "meh" and buy another one. But as the OP is asking specifically "Is there anything I can do ( setup or tactics wise ) too make my indy a harder target for pirates to takedown?" - I'd argue that never flying autopilot should probably be rule one :o)
KevLor I
Zephyr Corp
#10 - 2011-12-15 16:39:45 UTC  |  Edited by: KevLor I
Oh, I do not disagree (as per my post above), but I would indicate that there are multiple categories - safer on manual, safer on autopilot, safer in low-sec, safer in null, and safer in w-space, to name a few. Some recommendations (such as route and cargo value) apply across many categories, while your ship fitting is specific to each one. I was mainly trying to make the point (since the OP did not make it entirely clear) that you need to fit your ship differently for AP and MP.
Raziphan Rebular
Path of Dooppa
#11 - 2011-12-15 17:17:58 UTC
I highly suggest training for a transport it only takes about 15 to 20 days for hauler five. Transport ships are just amazing and once you use them you won't beable to bring yourself to using the t1 versions. I suggest the caldari transport ships, but the minmatar ones are also excellent.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#12 - 2011-12-15 17:25:52 UTC
Raziphan Rebular wrote:
I highly suggest training for a transport it only takes about 15 to 20 days for hauler five. Transport ships are just amazing and once you use them you won't beable to bring yourself to using the t1 versions. I suggest the caldari transport ships, but the minmatar ones are also excellent.


I'd suggest Gallente. Itty V, Viator (10k m3 without T2 rigs for those sneaky SBU jobs), and Obelisk. The DSTs are pretty much silly to use.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Professor Alphane
Les Corsaires Diable
#13 - 2011-12-15 17:49:00 UTC
Ok to answer some queries

I don't autopilot and my operations are in highsec atm, though it's all a learning curve.

I was obviously barking up the wrong tree on my first thoughts about this, though I don't really have any experience of pirate tactics.

I was thinking along the lines of anti tackling modules (Warp stabilsers and speed boosts), alignment and acceleration bonuses to save precious seconds warping, and ECM possibly , if you can't lock me you can't hurt me sort of thing.

Obviously I had considered a tank though I tend towards active tanking, so to stick to passive is good advice thanks.

Some questions I have about some points people have made though are

How should you vary your setup for operations in diffrent sec levels?

and if I do get the bug for 'heavy trucking' what is my best options to progress to ship wise?

Otherwise cheers for the advice guys all valuable stuff, also gotta lol at the 'don't haul more than a billion....' coments, chance would be a fine thing Lol

[center]YOU MUST THINK FIRST....[/center] [center]"I sit with the broken angels clutching at straws and nursing our scars.." - Marillion [/center] [center]The wise man watches the rise and fall of fools from afar[/center]
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#14 - 2011-12-15 19:18:48 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Professor Alphane wrote:
Ok to answer some queries

I don't autopilot and my operations are in highsec atm, though it's all a learning curve.

I was obviously barking up the wrong tree on my first thoughts about this, though I don't really have any experience of pirate tactics.

I was thinking along the lines of anti tackling modules (Warp stabilsers and speed boosts), alignment and acceleration bonuses to save precious seconds warping, and ECM possibly , if you can't lock me you can't hurt me sort of thing.

Obviously I had considered a tank though I tend towards active tanking, so to stick to passive is good advice thanks.

Some questions I have about some points people have made though are

How should you vary your setup for operations in diffrent sec levels?

and if I do get the bug for 'heavy trucking' what is my best options to progress to ship wise?

Otherwise cheers for the advice guys all valuable stuff, also gotta lol at the 'don't haul more than a billion....' coments, chance would be a fine thing Lol


Suicide ganks in hisec are Alpha strikes. You can't jam before they get that shot off. They've scanned you so they know your cargo and EHP. Your *only* defense is to make it cost more to gank you than your ship will likely drop.

If you really like trucking, a Freighter and an Orca (fit for tank and only use your corp hangar[unscannable and nothing drops]) will cover all your hisec needs. A recon fitted for align and tank will do for small expensive stuff.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
KevLor I
Zephyr Corp
#15 - 2011-12-15 19:31:57 UTC  |  Edited by: KevLor I
For getting to a big ship quick, it is hard to beat Minmatar. The Mammoth only requires industrial Level IV. The downside is that the DST (the Mastodon) isn't really any larger than the Mammoth; however, the Minmatar Blockade Runner (BR) is awesome for w-space operations since it is the only BR with two high slots - one for a cloak and one for a probe launcher.

Quick summary of my thoughts (longer rational later):
If you are going to be a strictly hi-sec hauler as a secondary function (not a professional hauler):
Go Minmatar and get a Mammoth.

If you are going to be a strictly hi-sec hauler and do it as a major job function:
Go Gallente and get an Iteron V.

If you want to haul value bulk goods OR autopilot with typical goods in hi sec:
Bustard (Caldari) or Mastodon (Minmatar)

If you will be running in low-sec/null:
This is a toss-up, for the most part. Use the same racial BR as DST that you train for.

If you plan to be running in w-space:
Minmatar all the way. DST is excellent for CO pickups (tough and fast), and BR has two high slots

If you plan to go PRIMARILY freighter, then obviously none of the above applies. You have to decide to go with volume (Caldari) or Speed (Minmatar). If you want ot go to Jump Freighter, same decision, same races. The Gallente is the toughest tank (generally), so could be considered the best for AP, I guess.

I created an analysis a few years back for my corp, I will summarize is below:

Gallente
T1 Hauler (Iteron V, req. Lvl 5):
Cargo: 38.4k m3
EHP: 14.5k

T1 Hauler (Iteron IV, req. Lvl 4)
Cargo: 20.7k m3
EHP: 10.7k

Caldari
T1 Hauler:
Cargo: 20.7k m3 (Badger Mk2, req. Lvl 3)
EHP: 18k

Amarr
T1 Hauler (Bestower, req. Lvl 1)
Cargo: 21.1k m3
EHP: 10.7k

Minmatar
T1 Hauler (Mammoth, req. Lvl 4)
Cargo: 28.3k m3
EHP: 14.1k

So, for T1 haulers ONLY, pretty much avoid Amarr. No tank and small hold. Gallente has the largest hold (by far) and a decent tank. Minmatar would rank No. 2 for cargo and a similar tank. The only possible advantage (and the one that is significant in our corp) is that only needing to train to level 4 saves a ton of time. I added the Iteron IV for comparison to the other haulers if you are worried about training time, and it is very similar to the Amarr industrials. Note that these stats are maxed out cargo mods/rigs with shield extenders/invulns in the mids (which is pretty typical) and all V skills.

Now, if you are serious about hauling, you need DST or BR. DST are much better (generally) for hi sec, whereas BR are for low-sec, w-space, or null (but have uses in hi sec, too).

Gallente:
DST (Occator)
Cargo: 35.5k m3
EHP: 32k
Speed: 104
Align: 19.1
Sig: 215

Caldari
DST (Bustard)
Cargo: 30.6k m3
EHP: 46.4k
Speed: 93
Align: 18.2
Sig: 215

Amarr
DST (Impel)
Cargo: 36.2k m3
EHP: 25.6k
Speed: 93
Align: 18.6
Sig: 185

Minmatar
DST (Mastodon)
Cargo: 29.2k m3
EHP: 50k
Speed:116
Align: 18.1
Sig: 200

Now, for pure size, the Amarr wins (slightly), but to get here you have to go through the pathetic Amarr T1 hauler training. The Amarr DST is also the flimsiest (albeit with the lowest sig) and tied for slowest. Since I want my DST to be tough, this is kind of a deal breaker. The Caldari and Minmatar are very similar in toughness and cargo, although the Minmatar is a bit faster and smaller, so I would give it a slight edge for most pilots. The Gallente has a good balance of speed, size, and toughness; however, if you are looking for toughness, the Gallente DST is much, much less than the Minnie and Caldari. I would recommend with Minmatar or Caldari for most people, but there are lots of variables.

It should be noted that the setups used above are max tanked with no speed mods. There are some common fits with MWD that are used for Customs Office work in w-space (maybe in null, not familiar enough). These fits require enough tank to survive long enough to escape a HIC bubble. Speed and toughness are both useful here, as opposed to capacity. Finally, there is the possibility that you may want to active tank any of these DSTs (although I have yet to find a situation where it would really help). The Gallente and Amarr suffer from their tank using the same slots as the cargo expanders. I think it is really inconsequential, though.

Finally, if you are going to train for Transports, a look at BRs is also necessary:
Gallente
BR (Viator)
Cargo: 10.3k m3
EHP: 10.6k
Speed:206 (1401)
Align: 6.0
Sig: 115

Caldari
BR (Crane)
Cargo: 9.4k m3
EHP: 12.7k
Speed:212 (1416)
Align: 5.4
Sig: 125

Amarr
BR (Prorater)
Cargo: 10.9k m3
EHP: 9.9k
Speed:188 (1309)
Align: 5.8
Sig: 122

Minmatar
BR (Prowler)
Cargo: 8.7k m3
EHP: 10.9k
Speed:238 (1722)
Align: 5.4
Sig: 110

For BRs, I am looking for speed and agility - capacity is nice, but usually secondary, since you plan to take a BR where you WILL be targeted. The Crane has a good combination of speed, cargo, and a bit of toughness. The Prowler is fast and passable sturdy, but small cargo - but if you go into w-space, that 2nd high slot is valuable. All the BR fits are based on a T1 MWD and whatever tank fits (not much).
Xuzi
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2011-12-15 22:52:04 UTC
My main spends a fair amount of time hauling stuff around in high sec. He started out flying Iteron IV, but for most of his life has been flying both Iteron V and Obelisk as well as the Orca. I've never been ganked in high sec, but a lot of that has more to do with statistics than anything else. If someone sets their mind to blowing up your ship, they will. Here is is my advice.

Avoid using autopilot. You've already got this one covered, but I mention it again due to its importance. Nothing is worse than using autopilot.

Don't use expanded cargoholds in your low slots unless you actually need the cargo room at that moment. You will often be hauling loads that don't fill you up, in which case there are some important modules you'll want to carry around with you. Inertial stabilizers (meta 4), reinforced bulkheads II and a damage control II. I'll often fit 2 or 3 inertial stabs, a dcu2 and a bulkhead on my iteron5 when I don't need the cargo space. Even though haulers are shield tanked, you can add a fair amount of EHP by simply not using expanded cargoholds which gimp your structure. The inertial stabilizers help you minimize the amount of time you are in harms way. I usually carry a small container to hold my alternate fittings.

Train evasive maneuvering 5. Again, this helps minimize the amount of time you are in harms way.

At busy trade hubs, have an instawarp bookmark set up ahead of time. This is a bookmark that you can warp to instantly upon undocking. In reality it isn't always instantly because there is some randomness in your undocking vector, but usually this is only obvious when flying a freighter. For the regular industrials you'll warp almost instantly. Again, this is about minimizing the amount of time you are in harms way. You can set these up easily with a frigate and a microwarp drive.

Skill up your shield skills. You want to be fitting as many tech2 shield extenders as you can and usually a tech2 invulnerability field. Your mids should be dedicated to raising your EHP. If someone wants to blow you up, they can, but don't make it easy for them. I was able to shrug off a single hit from an Armageddon once. It took most of my shields in a single shot, but I warped before it got a second shot off. Obviously he wasn't an experienced ganker and acting alone, but he likely would of been successful against a poorly tanked hauler which I imagine is what he might of been used to.

If you do any courier contract work, keep a look out for suspicious jobs. A low value item with a high collateral is a red flag. Peak inside the contract package to see what you are hauling and if it seems like it might be a bait contract you can take extra precautions to get it to its destination safely. These might include not hauling the contract right away if you have time or taking a less obvious route.

If you have something small and valuable, consider using a frigate or shuttle instead. Undocking at a hub will still be risky, but otherwise these small agile ships are great for moving small stuff around safely.

If you have something large or something expensive you'd rather not move yourself then courier contracts are an excellent tool for moving stuff around. Red Frog Freight is a little more expensive, but they are reliable and time efficient.

Don't be chatty about what you are doing. Even in chat channels that you think everyone is your BFF, try and keep your hauling activities on the downlow. No need to advertise that yer a ripe tomato.

It all comes down to risk management. There is always risk, but you can mitigate it.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#17 - 2011-12-16 04:01:17 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Xuzi wrote:

If you have something small and valuable, consider using a frigate or shuttle instead. Undocking at a hub will still be risky, but otherwise these small agile ships are great for moving small stuff around safely.


You will get scanned and someone will be waiting with smartbombs. If it's small enough that you don't want to take an orca, take a Combat Recon fitted up with a cloak, iStabs (or PDSes), and Shield Buffer. All of them will give you better than 50k EHP (to survive smartbombs), warp cloaked (to stop the alpha gankers), and align stupid fast (in case you get unlucky and enter system w/in 2k of something). These still can get ganked, but it's much harder if you're flying right.

Quote:

If you do any courier contract work, keep a look out for suspicious jobs. A low value item with a high collateral is a red flag. Peak inside the contract package to see what you are hauling and if it seems like it might be a bait contract you can take extra precautions to get it to its destination safely. These might include not hauling the contract right away if you have time or taking a less obvious route.


If you really want safety, accept contracts with an alt, station trade (or contract) to your hauler, and reverse on delivery. Hauling corps exist primarily to allow easy access to private contracts(to corp) so that the in-corp alt can accept it from anywhere in Eve.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Professor Alphane
Les Corsaires Diable
#18 - 2011-12-16 04:37:50 UTC
Again thanks all for sharing the knowledge of your experience. I've certainly gained a lot of insight into the subject.

I'm still intruiged by cloaks though, having never had the oppurtunity to use one. How they operate, there limitations, assume it's not just a 'nah nah you can't see me' type thing, nothings ever that simple is it...!

[center]YOU MUST THINK FIRST....[/center] [center]"I sit with the broken angels clutching at straws and nursing our scars.." - Marillion [/center] [center]The wise man watches the rise and fall of fools from afar[/center]
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#19 - 2011-12-16 04:44:30 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Professor Alphane wrote:
Again thanks all for sharing the knowledge of your experience. I've certainly gained a lot of insight into the subject.

I'm still intruiged by cloaks though, having never had the oppurtunity to use one. How they operate, there limitations, assume it's not just a 'nah nah you can't see me' type thing, nothings ever that simple is it...!



Pres Butan, receive 'nah nah you can't see me' rights.

Prototype and improved cloaks cut your speed ('cept in a BlOps), CovOps Cloaks allow you to warp cloaked but can only be fit on certain ships. If there is an object in space within 2000m of you, you will be decloaked. The implications and tactics that these details imply are left to the readers imagination (Google).



EDIT: Oh, and there's no cycle time, they stay on until you're decloaked or you turn them off.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Professor Alphane
Les Corsaires Diable
#20 - 2011-12-16 04:53:26 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
If there is an object in space within 2000m of you, you will be decloaked. The implications and tactics that these details imply are left to the readers imagination .....





My first thoughts are do stations and gates count and how far do you 'spawn' from them anyway, don't know of the top of my head.

[center]YOU MUST THINK FIRST....[/center] [center]"I sit with the broken angels clutching at straws and nursing our scars.." - Marillion [/center] [center]The wise man watches the rise and fall of fools from afar[/center]
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