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Ganking alleged AFK miners in Hi-Sec 0.5 - 1.0

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Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#21 - 2016-02-07 01:31:41 UTC
Pix Severus wrote:
Michel Petit wrote:
Why does CCP condone and encourage this activity?


CCP don't encourage it, in fact they've made several nerfs to it over the years to make it more difficult.

You'd think they would encourage it though, seeing as players who are ganked in highsec are more likely to stay subbed to the game.

Edit: Just saw your lossmail, ouch! I'm sure you won't make that mistake again.

In regard to the link. MY only issue with it is the time frame for the test. 15 days is too short. As if you KNOW what your doing it takes what like 9 days or so to just sit in a barge of any sort let alone an exhumer which is another month. So sure the metric holds for sub 15 days but Id say that those who have stayed in game for above 30 days to about the 3 month period should be looked at. Particularly using the metrics of time in barge/exhumer hulls as a majority function of play time as another limiting metric.

But anyway for me its not a big deal I just think using it as a metric or example in this case is ill founded mostly due to the low player age relative to the profession of mining as a whole.


Now THAT being said...



Yeah OP nothings safe in this game. Get used to it or I must say there is the door. Some do, some dont. Its a personal choice we all have to make in almost every profession and area of the game.

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#22 - 2016-02-07 01:40:40 UTC
Michel Petit wrote:
I've been playing EVE for several years and the one thing I can't wrap my head around is why it's ok and even encouraged to gank Hi-Sec solo miners. There's the ever-popular Hulkageddon not to mention several corps dedicated to just that.

Outright lawlessness is allowed in low and null sec. Why can't we keep these activities there?

Folks mine in Hi-Sec believing it to be safer than low or null. It should be.

My biggest argument is that the cost of replacing a fully rigged and loaded Hulk isn't insignificant, not to mention having to replace your Implants because the gankers can't be satisfied with destroying just your ship. Insurance only pays for the ship and there is none for the Implants, the cost of which can be nearly a billion for a good set. I still have to buy or make the rigs and modules that I am unable to recover from my wreck. The cost of replacing the gankers' ships (usually nothing more than destroyers because Concord is going to kill, but not pod, them) is significantly less. I can afford to replace that ship only as long as I have isk. ISK isn't unlimited. Eventually it, too, runs out.

Why does CCP condone and encourage this activity?

The only reason I've heard is that there is a scourge of 'AFK Miners.' Miners who utilize BOT Programs, or, for whatever reason, are AFK while mining. If that's true then find a way to detect those miners using software and deal with them without ruining the experience for those players who are working to advance in the game.

As far as the gankers that participate in these activities, as I said lawlessness is allowed, encouraged, and highly rewarded in low and null sec, however, should be discouraged in hi-sec. The cost of replacing the gankers equipment will never as high as the solo miner. The cost to their future in hi-sec should, therefore, be extreme.

Hi-Sec ganking of miners needs to be punished in such a way as to make it immediately undesirable and quickly impossible to participate in.

In order to achieve this, the security status of an individual caught ganking in Hi-Sec is set immediately and permanently to yellow/suspect. A second offence get's them permanently flagged red/criminal to be killed on first contact within the region where they committed the offense.

Everyone playing this game wants to have an enjoyable experience and will choose the level of risk they are willing to take while playing. Ganking lone miners in Hi-Sec makes their experience less enjoyable by imposing unreasonable expenses that on one else playing has to incur.


There is nothing stopping me from shooting you in any security space I want too. In HS, CONCORD will respond unless it is under a war dec or you do something to go suspect.

The game has always been this way, deal with it.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2016-02-07 01:41:14 UTC
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
Pix Severus wrote:
Michel Petit wrote:
Why does CCP condone and encourage this activity?


CCP don't encourage it, in fact they've made several nerfs to it over the years to make it more difficult.

You'd think they would encourage it though, seeing as players who are ganked in highsec are more likely to stay subbed to the game.

Edit: Just saw your lossmail, ouch! I'm sure you won't make that mistake again.

In regard to the link. MY only issue with it is the time frame for the test. 15 days is too short. As if you KNOW what your doing it takes what like 9 days or so to just sit in a barge of any sort let alone an exhumer which is another month. So sure the metric holds for sub 15 days but Id say that those who have stayed in game for above 30 days to about the 3 month period should be looked at. Particularly using the metrics of time in barge/exhumer hulls as a majority function of play time as another limiting metric.

But anyway for me its not a big deal I just think using it as a metric or example in this case is ill founded mostly due to the low player age relative to the profession of mining as a whole.


Now THAT being said...



Yeah OP nothings safe in this game. Get used to it or I must say there is the door. Some do, some dont. Its a personal choice we all have to make in almost every profession and area of the game.

As a business owner telling any new customer "if you dont like it theres the door" has to be the dumbest thing anyone can do. EvE is both a PvP game as well as a PvE game. Yes sure you could be ******** and insist PvE players leave and lose their sub and money but considering that PvE pays for PvP and that is essential and further that ganking is not at all essential its no wonder EvE subs are not increasing and therefore development of the game is so horribly slow.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#24 - 2016-02-07 01:59:43 UTC
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
In regard to the link. MY only issue with it is the time frame for the test. 15 days is too short. As if you KNOW what your doing it takes what like 9 days or so to just sit in a barge of any sort let alone an exhumer which is another month. So sure the metric holds for sub 15 days but Id say that those who have stayed in game for above 30 days to about the 3 month period should be looked at.

Discussing the merits of the study is old news now. That was done to death a while ago.

I personally wouldn't expect someone's attitude to change dramatically after subbing than before they subbed, but CCP have also looked at retention for subbed accounts. That's also been discussed to death, but one conclusion that can be safely drawn is that it certainly didn't say the opposite of what Pix posted.

But, it's probably all academic since CCP don't condone and encourage what any of us do. They allow it and to quote GM Karidor:

We would also like to stress that if a gameplay activity is classified as being “within the rules” this does not mean that we endorse, sanction or back player activity.

From an outdated position on bumping, but not an outdated view of CCP's approach to player activity.
Another Posting Alt
Zerious Fricken Biziness
#25 - 2016-02-07 02:08:00 UTC
I don't think it's been said clearly in this thread yet, but just to clarify...
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Memphis Baas
#26 - 2016-02-07 02:30:34 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
As a business owner telling any new customer "if you dont like it theres the door" has to be the dumbest thing anyone can do.


Kohl's doesn't have "x-large" clothing sizes, Sketchers doesn't have "wide" shoe sizes, and Taco Bell doesn't have burgers. They don't say "here's the door" specifically, but neither has CCP; that's something WE said. Just like, regardless of store policies, the thin customers can laugh at you for being fat, or having weird feet, or not getting the menu, at the above mentioned places.

Any business owner will tell a customer who wants something that the business simply isn't manufacturing (or selling), to look elsewhere. In polite terms. They're not going to revamp their ******* factory from a steel mill to making suede shoes, just cause some clueless rich blonde walked in.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2016-02-07 02:32:27 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Michel Petit wrote:
I've been playing EVE for several years and the one thing I can't wrap my head around is why it's ok and even encouraged to gank Hi-Sec solo miners. There's the ever-popular Hulkageddon not to mention several corps dedicated to just that.

Outright lawlessness is allowed in low and null sec. Why can't we keep these activities there?

Folks mine in Hi-Sec believing it to be safer than low or null. It should be.

My biggest argument is that the cost of replacing a fully rigged and loaded Hulk isn't insignificant, not to mention having to replace your Implants because the gankers can't be satisfied with destroying just your ship. Insurance only pays for the ship and there is none for the Implants, the cost of which can be nearly a billion for a good set. I still have to buy or make the rigs and modules that I am unable to recover from my wreck. The cost of replacing the gankers' ships (usually nothing more than destroyers because Concord is going to kill, but not pod, them) is significantly less. I can afford to replace that ship only as long as I have isk. ISK isn't unlimited. Eventually it, too, runs out.

Why does CCP condone and encourage this activity?

The only reason I've heard is that there is a scourge of 'AFK Miners.' Miners who utilize BOT Programs, or, for whatever reason, are AFK while mining. If that's true then find a way to detect those miners using software and deal with them without ruining the experience for those players who are working to advance in the game.

As far as the gankers that participate in these activities, as I said lawlessness is allowed, encouraged, and highly rewarded in low and null sec, however, should be discouraged in hi-sec. The cost of replacing the gankers equipment will never as high as the solo miner. The cost to their future in hi-sec should, therefore, be extreme.

Hi-Sec ganking of miners needs to be punished in such a way as to make it immediately undesirable and quickly impossible to participate in.

In order to achieve this, the security status of an individual caught ganking in Hi-Sec is set immediately and permanently to yellow/suspect. A second offence get's them permanently flagged red/criminal to be killed on first contact within the region where they committed the offense.

Everyone playing this game wants to have an enjoyable experience and will choose the level of risk they are willing to take while playing. Ganking lone miners in Hi-Sec makes their experience less enjoyable by imposing unreasonable expenses that on one else playing has to incur.


There is nothing stopping me from shooting you in any security space I want too. In HS, CONCORD will respond unless it is under a war dec or you do something to go suspect.

The game has always been this way, deal with it.

youve always been able to shoot yes, but getting a kill ganking no, at least not without significant loss of isk and sec status

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
tikiana
Golden Eagle Research Corp
#28 - 2016-02-07 02:38:31 UTC
Anybody who has played this game for more then a couple of months knows this game is PVP, any PVE in this game is incidental

The only reason mining and industry ratting etc, is even in the game is because without it the cost of ships would have to be next to nothing, as there would be no way to make isk and no way to keep 'score' and therefore no point in playing.

As to high sec ganking its been around for years, same as AFK mining. I personally don't like either one because as often then not the miners being ganked aren't even AFK. I rarely if ever, while mining, afk because i need to empty my cargo hold into a freighter which is sitting near by and make sure I have the next roid targeted. AFK minings would be sitting in a belt having filled their ore hold after only 2 cycles (if in a hulk) doing nothing if your going to afk mine do it in a Mac, much bigger ore hold and better tank.

Having said all that, to make sure I fit in with everybody else ........ you dirty dirty miner simply for exisiting you got what you deserve
Tisiphone Dira
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2016-02-07 02:54:12 UTC
if they're not afk how did they get ganked hmm?

There once was a ganker named tisi

A stunningly beautiful missy

To gank a gross miner

There is nothing finer, cept when they get all pissy
tikiana
Golden Eagle Research Corp
#30 - 2016-02-07 02:58:41 UTC
Tisiphone Dira wrote:
if they're not afk how did they get ganked hmm?


ok you must never have flown a mining barge they align like crap,
I could easily warp a fleet in and by then its way too late, the dessies will target you and blow your barge away before you can align, especially if we bumb and scamble/disrupt you
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2016-02-07 03:10:53 UTC
tikiana wrote:
Anybody who has played this game for more then a couple of months knows this game is PVP, any PVE in this game is incidental

The only reason mining and industry ratting etc, is even in the game is because without it the cost of ships would have to be next to nothing, as there would be no way to make isk and no way to keep 'score' and therefore no point in playing.

As to high sec ganking its been around for years, same as AFK mining. I personally don't like either one because as often then not the miners being ganked aren't even AFK. I rarely if ever, while mining, afk because i need to empty my cargo hold into a freighter which is sitting near by and make sure I have the next roid targeted. AFK minings would be sitting in a belt having filled their ore hold after only 2 cycles (if in a hulk) doing nothing if your going to afk mine do it in a Mac, much bigger ore hold and better tank.

Having said all that, to make sure I fit in with everybody else ........ you dirty dirty miner simply for exisiting you got what you deserve

Not true. If CCP had intended an exclusive PvP game they could have simply made ships without requiring PvE content. I still have the original EvE box from 2003. on the back it clearly states a number of cateer choices including pirate, bounty hunter, miner, trader or manufacturer. says nothing about PvP only.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Top Guac
Doomheim
#32 - 2016-02-07 03:29:30 UTC
tikiana wrote:
ok you must never have flown a mining barge they align like crap,
I could easily warp a fleet in and by then its way too late, the dessies will target you and blow your barge away before you can align, especially if we bumb and scamble/disrupt you

If you fit Higgs Anchor rigs, you just mine aligned and warp the instant you need.

Especially with the larger grids now, you can see well in advance when another ship is warping in (and you should have it on d-scan well before then).

Even if a ship is cloaked on grid, there are only a few that have 0 targetting delay, but they aren't instalocking (nor commonly used for ganking), giving you time to press warp if you are attentive.
Knitram Relik
State War Academy
Caldari State
#33 - 2016-02-07 03:33:17 UTC
Michel Petittually wrote:
Waaaah!



Get a permit. Watch local. It's called Hi-Sec, not Safe-Sec.
You consent to PvP when you click undock. CCP says so

"The problem with quotes on the internet is that it's really hard to verify their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#34 - 2016-02-07 04:02:08 UTC
Michel Petit wrote:


Why does CCP condone and encourage this activity?


I would assume it is because they enjoy seeing lazy morons explode just as much as the rest of us.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#35 - 2016-02-07 04:16:36 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

youve always been able to shoot yes, but getting a kill ganking no, at least not without significant loss of isk and sec status


Did I say otherwise? Seriously, are you just that unfamiliar with the game mechanics or what?

Yes, I'll get a hit to my security status and lose my ship...STFW, if I find that acceptable then I shoot. If I don't, then I don't shoot.

Seriously grow up.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#36 - 2016-02-07 04:53:37 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Frankly barges need a change, they have too much base HP (among other things) and are currently the only ships that are not profitable to gank if you fit t2 mods and no tank.
Memphis Baas
#37 - 2016-02-07 05:12:22 UTC
tikiana wrote:
Tisiphone Dira wrote:
if they're not afk how did they get ganked hmm?
ok you must never have flown a mining barge they align like crap, I could easily warp a fleet in and by then its way too late, the dessies will target you and blow your barge away before you can align, especially if we bumb and scamble/disrupt you

See what happens when you leave, Tisi? You get forgotten AND treated like a newbie.
Djsaeu
Doomheim
#38 - 2016-02-07 05:36:07 UTC
Well, if the gankers can get a good kill on a miner with a very small loss, why not make it where Concord also pops the pod of the ganker? At least that way the gankers stand to lose as much as the miner.
Memphis Baas
#39 - 2016-02-07 05:45:34 UTC
Doubt they have implants. An alt can train the skills to fly a destroyer + T2 small guns for it (for max dps) in 2 weeks tops.

CODE is some big alliance's throw-away alts; things are stagnant in 0.0 cause everyone's waiting for CCP to finish whatever they're changing with capital ships, so there's a bunch of supercarrier and titan pilots bored out of their minds looking for some fun while they wait.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#40 - 2016-02-07 05:52:47 UTC
tikiana wrote:
Tisiphone Dira wrote:
if they're not afk how did they get ganked hmm?


ok you must never have flown a mining barge they align like crap,
I could easily warp a fleet in and by then its way too late, the dessies will target you and blow your barge away before you can align, especially if we bumb and scamble/disrupt you


Who cares what they align like? If they have a slow align, factor that into your game play and adapt.

Put out combat drones, or remote repping drones. The game has gotten progressively safer over the years and oh...look, players on line has also gone down over the years.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online