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Why Eve Can't attract new players, and has lost 20,000 so far.

First post
Author
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#281 - 2017-03-22 08:42:01 UTC
Oh and regarding a new player grinding for a PLEX.

Hey, you dopes....opportunity cost.

You get it when it comes to mining your own minerals, but you completely fail to get it everywhere else.

Hint: Opportunity cost applies to literally everything.

Holy ****, can't believe I had to explain this.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Bjorn Tyrson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#282 - 2017-04-01 08:29:08 UTC
So i've got a question, when did the narrative in regards to "earning a plex" change?

back when I got started, I asked the very same question, and the answers I got where inevitably "it is possible to do, but it isn't easy, it will likely be a year or more before you have the skill and experience to do it in any reliable fashion. don't focus on that for now, just enjoy the game, learn to play, and before you know it you will be there"

Well I didn't take that advice, I was determined to plex my way to glory, and so I mined, and I missioned, and I built, and was so risk averse that the mere thought of low-sec made me feel sick. and I never did get that plex, and it burned me out, time and time again I would try, and time and again I failed.

until eventually I did take the advice, and I started playing the game for the joy of the game, and I learned to stop fearing low-sec, and null-sec, and I started exploring wormholes, and having more fun than I ever did before, and yes I kept doing industry because I actually enjoyed it, and low and behold 3 years on (with some large breaks in between) I looked at my wallet and saw I had enough to spare for a plex... but by then I didn't care anymore, I was more than happy to keep up my sub and use that isk for more fun activities.

now, 7 years in, I have 8 characters plexed, and my main which I still keep on a subscription. and am enjoying the game more than ever, but the narrative seems to have changed. Now when new players ask "how can I plex my account" they get bombarded with suggestions and ideas, far more than any new player could even make sense of. and the vast majority of those ideas, are frankly not feasible for someone brand new to the game.

its not a matter of SP, but of player experience that makes most of the isk making methods effective, and if the newbros keep chasing that isk, they will never learn to love the game the way we have, which means they will just burn out and never gain that experience.

maybe the solution is for us to go back to the way things where before, maybe we need to be a little bit LESS helpful, and more hands off, tell them to just enjoy the game and have fun with it for what it is, and worry about that fiddly isk and plex buisness later. with alpha accounts its even easier to do that than ever since real world finances aren't even as big a concern anymore.

Eve is about the journey, not the destination.
Kirie Kumamato
Ascension From Okomon
#283 - 2017-04-01 09:22:01 UTC
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
maybe the solution is for us to go back to the way things where before, maybe we need to be a little bit LESS helpful, and more hands off, tell them to just enjoy the game and have fun with it for what it is, and worry about that fiddly isk and plex buisness later. with alpha accounts its even easier to do that than ever since real world finances aren't even as big a concern anymore.


As a rather new player myself, I'd argue that the downpour of support from veterans is what got me hooked on this game. It's been fun chatting with people about their experiences, reading blogs, and applying bits and pieces of what I see to my own game. I **** up a lot, and I've found some advice to be garbage the hard way, but I feel like I'm getting better at the game and enjoying it while I do. Players obsessed with isk and plex will have a tough time regardless of how much support others give them, as you've pointed out - it's the players looking for a good time who you provide the most value to.

I wouldn't give up on being a helpful bittervet just yet.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#284 - 2017-04-01 18:54:03 UTC
Kirie Kumamato wrote:
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
maybe the solution is for us to go back to the way things where before, maybe we need to be a little bit LESS helpful, and more hands off, tell them to just enjoy the game and have fun with it for what it is, and worry about that fiddly isk and plex buisness later. with alpha accounts its even easier to do that than ever since real world finances aren't even as big a concern anymore.


As a rather new player myself, I'd argue that the downpour of support from veterans is what got me hooked on this game. It's been fun chatting with people about their experiences, reading blogs, and applying bits and pieces of what I see to my own game. I **** up a lot, and I've found some advice to be garbage the hard way, but I feel like I'm getting better at the game and enjoying it while I do. Players obsessed with isk and plex will have a tough time regardless of how much support others give them, as you've pointed out - it's the players looking for a good time who you provide the most value to.

I wouldn't give up on being a helpful bittervet just yet.


There is a difference in terms of support from veterans vs. CCP, IMO. The former is interaction with another player, the latter is not. Interaction between players is good in that it is likely what keeps players in the game.

The PLEX narrative is largely Bravo Sierra in that no new player is going to buying a PLEX with ISK (without at least selling a PLEX or two first--i.e. he could do that and then try to play in the PLEX market). Appealing to "think of the New Player" is a common basis for a plea for some change to the game some player wants....usually to their benefit.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Bjorn Tyrson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#285 - 2017-04-01 22:25:34 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Kirie Kumamato wrote:
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
maybe the solution is for us to go back to the way things where before, maybe we need to be a little bit LESS helpful, and more hands off, tell them to just enjoy the game and have fun with it for what it is, and worry about that fiddly isk and plex buisness later. with alpha accounts its even easier to do that than ever since real world finances aren't even as big a concern anymore.


As a rather new player myself, I'd argue that the downpour of support from veterans is what got me hooked on this game. It's been fun chatting with people about their experiences, reading blogs, and applying bits and pieces of what I see to my own game. I **** up a lot, and I've found some advice to be garbage the hard way, but I feel like I'm getting better at the game and enjoying it while I do. Players obsessed with isk and plex will have a tough time regardless of how much support others give them, as you've pointed out - it's the players looking for a good time who you provide the most value to.

I wouldn't give up on being a helpful bittervet just yet.


There is a difference in terms of support from veterans vs. CCP, IMO. The former is interaction with another player, the latter is not. Interaction between players is good in that it is likely what keeps players in the game.

The PLEX narrative is largely Bravo Sierra in that no new player is going to buying a PLEX with ISK (without at least selling a PLEX or two first--i.e. he could do that and then try to play in the PLEX market). Appealing to "think of the New Player" is a common basis for a plea for some change to the game some player wants....usually to their benefit.


Exactly, when I started, yeah there where people out there plexing their accounts, and even then it was a selling point that it was something you COULD do.
but it was always promoted as something further down the road, almost end game content as it where. it was never promoted as something realistic for new players to work towards.
but thats exactly what I see happening now, and sure, some people manage to accomplish it, but for most its just raising false expectations, which is bad for player retention in the long run.
Lord Harrowmont
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#286 - 2017-04-02 23:03:44 UTC
Ms GoodyMaker wrote:
Eve has lost over 20 thousand players in the years I have played this game, and it is sad to see.
The player base continues to tell CCP that the one thing that drives players away the most is CCP continuing to allow players to suicide kill other players in empire space, with little to no ramifications for their actions, while the players they kill take huge losses.

No one will continue to play under such circumstances, and the drop in population shows it.

Take CCPs position allowing suicide ganking in empire to continue to it's natural conclusion; no one will bother to contribute to the economy because it would just be destroyed, and everyone would sit around and suicide gank each other until there is nothing left.

All CCP has to do is disable people from being able to fire on each other in empire space without a war dec. Very simple, they already have the mechanic in the game - bombs don't work in empire, capitals can't jump to empire, etc. CCP, if you want to attract people to play this game, create a safe space for people to learn and play in safety, and then move out to null sec or take part in war decs when they are ready.

Dust514 is shutting down, your Valkyrie product is not going to have a good reputation either, when your preceeding product is hated by most of the gaming community.

Will the Council try to get across to CCP that the on going state of Eve-Online is glorified gang warfare, disgusting to all civilized people, and must change as outlined above, to continue to survive.

Times have changed, Eve-Online has to change to, or die.


No.
Bjorn Tyrson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#287 - 2017-04-08 20:15:48 UTC
Ms GoodyMaker wrote:
Eve has lost over 20 thousand players in the years I have played this game, and it is sad to see.
The player base continues to tell CCP that the one thing that drives players away the most is CCP continuing to allow players to suicide kill other players in empire space, with little to no ramifications for their actions, while the players they kill take huge losses.

No one will continue to play under such circumstances, and the drop in population shows it.

Take CCPs position allowing suicide ganking in empire to continue to it's natural conclusion; no one will bother to contribute to the economy because it would just be destroyed, and everyone would sit around and suicide gank each other until there is nothing left.

All CCP has to do is disable people from being able to fire on each other in empire space without a war dec. Very simple, they already have the mechanic in the game - bombs don't work in empire, capitals can't jump to empire, etc. CCP, if you want to attract people to play this game, create a safe space for people to learn and play in safety, and then move out to null sec or take part in war decs when they are ready.

Dust514 is shutting down, your Valkyrie product is not going to have a good reputation either, when your preceeding product is hated by most of the gaming community.

Will the Council try to get across to CCP that the on going state of Eve-Online is glorified gang warfare, disgusting to all civilized people, and must change as outlined above, to continue to survive.

Times have changed, Eve-Online has to change to, or die.


I would like to point out. That it has been over a year since the initial post... eve is still here, and while alphas may not have reversed the subscriber trend they have at least leveled it out.

Good job ccp, eve's not quite dead yet.

Oh and ganking still exists.
Sivar Ahishatsu
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#288 - 2017-04-13 03:18:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Sivar Ahishatsu
Black Pedro wrote:

The most glaring problem with your idea is it is an obviously zero-sum change that would delete much of the space that thousands of players use every day. Why should CCP take away 75% of lowsec and give it to you? Don't you think that might have a negative impact on the players that do log in to fight and PvE in lowsec today? I mean, it's not like highsec is overcrowded. I make a point of visiting the more obscure corners of highsec and the vast majority of systems once you get away from the trade hubs have only a couple pilots in them at any time or are empty.


The problem is not overcrowding, the problem is that there is no enough sand in High sec to build sandcastles from in the sandbox. So people are forced to take their shovels and buckets and venture in to lowsec to get more sand where they actually end up not only not getting sand but losing their shovels buckets and carts along with the fun and excitement of the prospect pushed back to no sand highsec.

Quote:
Further, have you ever entered lowsec? Aside from the faction warfare stuff, the general missions and mining gameplay is near identical to the rest of Empire space. Sure, you have level 5 and some higher end ore but it basically is the same as highsec. If you want to run missions or mine you already can perfectly well in highsec. I don't think slightly increasing the number of systems where players can mine or mission with CONCORD protection is going make anyone stay playing Eve much longer. The gameplay would be near identical and they can already do it in the 1200 or so systems in highsec. Removing most of lowsec as an accessible PvP space and home of Faction Warfare would cause people to leave however. It would seem to me if you really want that content, it would be better to ask CCP to add that content back to highsec than delete most of lowsec to give it to you.


Yes I have. and every time it ends up with a fight. Every time. As a newbie it always ended up with me dying. And for what? I mean there is not even a valid reason here. Just a couple of days back some of my friends went to low sec, they were ganged within 5 minutes of being there. When asked why, the answer was "because its fun" their assailant being someone with hundreds of millions of SP, thousands of kills mainly just in that very system, My assessment is, that system is claimed by that person who spends their days not harvesting it or using its sand to build something but waiting for unsuspected newbies to come for that sand in order to just kill them in cold blood just like that because he can..and he finds that fun. Killing ventures and frigates and mining barges with full T2 and above ships and equipment. I analysed that persons victims etc, it was all just weaker targets.

I am sorry but that is an awful waste of sand. How many players probably quit because of that very person who in reality may even be making enough from all the kills to be buying PLEX and not even actually giving any revenue to the game. Funny how Dystopias work both ways ;)

Quote:
I do find it amusing that you accuse others of "bombarding" you with rhetoric about how the game should work when it is you asking for radical changes to the game as it doesn't conform to your narrow view of how a PvP game should work. Many of us actually like Eve the way it is, as does CCP apparently. I am not sure where you get your hubris to tell everyone else how they should play or design an open-world PvP sandbox game. By all means, share what you are looking for in a game, but you also need to realize how and why Eve was designed this way, and that CCP has stuck with this vision for almost 15 years, and that it is an MMO that other people like to play in its current form.


I have teh right to give feedback as a player. Ultimately, I will pack up and go to a better game that fits my idea of fun, but while I am here, I will give Feedback. I am not expecting that this feedback will be listened to or that something will be done to address any concerns my friends and I may have with the fun of the game. However, I have been playing MMORPG';s for more time than EVE itself exists and I do like to contribute with my feedback to the ongoing evolution and development of the games I play. I am not expecting that you agree with me. But do not think that your points are more valid than mine. You are but another player on equal standing as me. You are not better, you are just different with different likes and preferences.

I find many people challenging me with this kind of approach "who are you to suggest such a thing", so arrogant and self-centered it is amazing. But I am not here to point fingers at any one person. I just share what I think is union in the game and what others and I think would make the game more fun from our perspective. And I think I have the right to do so as a player on equal footing as anyone else playing EVE. The game's universe maybe a Dystopia, but reality is not. And unless you come over and start paying for my Omega accounts you cannot tell me to shut up or tell me that it is hubris for me to express my feedback.
Sivar Ahishatsu
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#289 - 2017-04-13 04:22:44 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:

I'm sorry to say, but you just post the same flawed ideas over and over without actually considering the counter arguments to your rather flawed proposals. It was mentioned multiple times in multiple threads that expanding Highsec will literally do nothing since it already offers enough space and systems which are completely empty if you are looking for a corner where you don't have to compete with too many people.


There has not been many counter points worth replying to because the counter points make assumptions and provide false premises. My suggestion for expanding High sec is not about having more space. I expressed in many replies. It is about accessibility to more content. The game is boring in High Sec, and those who do not wish to engage in PvP or be PKed dont have much choice really for more fun.

Expanding highsec to include more lower systems will give access to people in Empire space to more content. And I am talking about a total experience here not just PVE.

Quote:
If you are thinking that the problem is the PvE content then why are you not asking for more PvE content? In the last years CCP actually started to expand on that and it would not surprise me if they add more interesting content in the future for people who like to shoot NPC etc. This can be added to the Highsec as it is, I don't see why this should be a problem.


I do not wish to push people out of their fun, if that is what you think. This is not my type, I am not a Dystopian type player, a criminal or a scoundrel. You can keep all that to yourself if it gives you fun.

I am the cooperative type of player, the builder the organizer and honorable type. You will not see me attacking an unsuspecting newbie, or miner, explorer etc in low sec nulsec or WH space. I find that behavior cowardly and criminal in nature. I will fight for two reasons, in self defense or for the defense of someone else. SoI would attack the coward ganker and the criminal. I like to PvP but also for a good reason, not mindless slaughter and certainly not for bragging and all that bull I see on youtube etc. We should be applauding people who courageously defended the miner from the ganker. And the place is full of videos of gankers patting themselves for having killed a victim who had no chance to fight back in the first place thinking that they just accomplished something great. It is dumbfounding to watch... I best most are WoW rejects..who came here to "Gank" and brag about it... *rolls eyes*..anyways.

Having said that. Yes I am very open to consider alternative to make the experience in High sec richer than it is. And while I may have a hard time justifying lowsec, since I find it is filled up with cowards, criminals and scoundrels in game, I have to consider these people also as players and as such I am not better than them either and they have the right to their fun too.

If lowsec is your fun by all means keep it. But then if High sec becomes richer in terms of Game experience do not come complaining that no more victims come to low sec to be ganked. Right? I would expect you would have no issue with High sec having same access to mineral resources and missions and opportunities as low sec, the only difference being security coverage.

You are claiming the right to exist within what you consider Fun. But in that case you must at least recognize also the same right of others even if their view of what is fun is different than yours. Does that sound sensible and fair?

Quote:
The problem most people have with your approach is that you literally try to delete whole parts of the game and the whole core concept that you are not 100% save everywhere. This has nothing to do with the availability of PvE content. Those things are completely unrelated.


I understand this as expressed above. So the alternate approach is to leave Lowsec untouched and make High Sec much better in such a way so that it doe snot feel constrained and limited and boring.

See, many people in Low sec say that they do not like to play the game in nulsec, because large alliances and fleet stuff is not their thing, but then go and demand that high sec players should not have rights to fun and should adhere to the established order..their order in reality.

And that is unfair, don't you think? You do not like it when I suggest that you should be pushed to nullsec, because you do not like to adhere to that established order. Now you probably understand how High sec players may feel too in turn, when low sec come and start spewing about, "live with it", "it is a dystopia", "no safety" ", deal" etc,..

From my perspective here it looks like Low sec players are demanding from High sec players to deal with it, but then are crying themselves when expected to deal with it in turn. It cannot work like that.

And this is what CCP needs to finally realise. The game attracts many kinds of players, it has to offer a niche of many different kinds of play styles which are not affected directly by the others, but remain open and are not insular as to permit players to jump from one another as they evolve or their preferences and likes change within EVE.

The days where you force everyone in to one way of playing should come to an end.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#290 - 2017-04-13 08:09:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Sivar Ahishatsu wrote:
The problem is not overcrowding, the problem is that there is no enough sand in High sec to build sandcastles from in the sandbox. So people are forced to take their shovels and buckets and venture in to lowsec to get more sand where they actually end up not only not getting sand but losing their shovels buckets and carts along with the fun and excitement of the prospect pushed back to no sand highsec.
There is plenty of sand in highsec. There are vast swathes of space that are empty and full of resources for you to mold into whatever it is you want to build. The sand in lowsec is essentially the same, with some looser rules on who can smash each others' sandcastles. Why should you get to take their near identical sand, and kick them out of the sandbox just because you don't like such rough sandcastle play?

What you are looking for is new types of sand, or perhaps more toys that work in your section of the sandbox. And it looks like you are getting it with an Empire-focussed expansion that is coming our way next winter. Will it make you happy? I have my doubts but CCP has pledged to give the players what some of them say they want. At least though, they are not doing it by wholesale demolition of large sections of the game like you asked for.

Sivar Ahishatsu wrote:
I am sorry but that is an awful waste of sand. How many players probably quit because of that very person who in reality may even be making enough from all the kills to be buying PLEX and not even actually giving any revenue to the game. Funny how Dystopias work both ways ;)
Please tell me how many quit - I'd love to see your numbers. Because, about 10% of the player activity takes place in lowsec. That is thousands, actually tens of thousands of players who pay their subscription each month so they can build, fight, and gather stuff in lowsec. There is your hubris again. How do you have the right to tell these fellow paying customers that what they like is a "waste of sand"? I get it, it isn't your thing but you have to be so blindingly self-centred to think what you like is what everyone else is looking for in their video game.

Sivar Ahishatsu wrote:
I have teh right to give feedback as a player. Ultimately, I will pack up and go to a better game that fits my idea of fun, but while I am here, I will give Feedback. I am not expecting that this feedback will be listened to or that something will be done to address any concerns my friends and I may have with the fun of the game. However, I have been playing MMORPG';s for more time than EVE itself exists and I do like to contribute with my feedback to the ongoing evolution and development of the games I play. I am not expecting that you agree with me. But do not think that your points are more valid than mine. You are but another player on equal standing as me. You are not better, you are just different with different likes and preferences.

I find many people challenging me with this kind of approach "who are you to suggest such a thing", so arrogant and self-centered it is amazing. But I am not here to point fingers at any one person. I just share what I think is union in the game and what others and I think would make the game more fun from our perspective. And I think I have the right to do so as a player on equal footing as anyone else playing EVE. The game's universe maybe a Dystopia, but reality is not. And unless you come over and start paying for my Omega accounts you cannot tell me to shut up or tell me that it is hubris for me to express my feedback.
Of course you can give your feedback, but I am equally allowed to give mine and call you out for what you are: someone who is trying to gut the competitive aspects of the game that brought and keep me here and transform it into something else they want it to be.

What you are doing is equivalent to walking into a restaurant or say tennis club that has been operating for 15 years and telling them they are doing it wrong. It's one thing to suggest that they add a particular dish to the menu or repaint the clubhouse, while it is something completely different to demand that the chef stop cooking meat dishes because you don't like the smell, or for the tennis club to demolish a third of their tennis courts and put in bowling alleys because you actually prefer bowling over tennis. One is giving feedback and ideas for added value to the place, while the other is asking for fundamental changes that negatively impact the current customers/members.

But yes, feel free to tell CCP their long-lived and profitable sandbox MMO is doing it wrong as is your right. However, don't be surprised to be ignored just like a decade-and-a-half of similar agitators who have begged, pleaded, argued, threatened, and yelled in these forums trying unsuccessfully to get CCP to throw out their vision of a full-time PvP sandbox game and virtual universe and turn it into something else. Further, don't think you won't also draw the ire of the players who do love this game as it is and who don't appreciate selfish players asking for the current game play to be removed, because you will draw ire and will continue to do so until you figure out that Eve isn't going to change for you and move on to another game that is more compatible for what you are looking for.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#291 - 2017-04-14 05:25:13 UTC
Sivar Ahishatsu wrote:
Having said that. Yes I am very open to consider alternative to make the experience in High sec richer than it is. And while I may have a hard time justifying lowsec, since I find it is filled up with cowards, criminals and scoundrels in game, I have to consider these people also as players and as such I am not better than them either and they have the right to their fun too.


EVE is a sandbox game unlike WoW which you reference earlier. As such it is totally valid to play the “criminal and scoundrel”. And calling players cowards makes you an ass, BTW, if not an *******. These are completely acceptable and intended by CCP. Further, the greater danger of LS is due in part because LS has better resources than NS. Granted you can just go and obtain those resources solo, you’ll need effort and teamwork to take advantage of what LS has to offer.

Sivar Ahishatsu wrote:
If lowsec is your fun by all means keep it. But then if High sec becomes richer in terms of Game experience do not come complaining that no more victims come to low sec to be ganked. Right? I would expect you would have no issue with High sec having same access to mineral resources and missions and opportunities as low sec, the only difference being security coverage.


Yes, I would have an issue. You should not have access to those kinds of resources with the current levels of protection you enjoy in HS. It would have an unbalancing effect on the game IMO. You seem to be unaware that the economy is a significant means by which players interact. Yes it is pretty anonymous, but that is a feature not a bug. Do you know who built those t2 strip miners? Do you know who ran the moon mining operation that provided the moon goo used in the the T2 components? Do you know who did the PI work that went into the fuel blocks? I am going to guess that for most if not all of those the answer is, “No.” The EVE economy is a ginormous mass of player interacting with each other providing each other with what they want and need to play the game. Letting a section of the game suddenly become more productive without a commensurate increase in the risk would mean that people would flock there to enjoy the greater rewards and lowered risks.

You want those things….LS is thataway =>

Sivar Ahishatsu wrote:
You are claiming the right to exist within what you consider Fun. But in that case you must at least recognize also the same right of others even if their view of what is fun is different than yours. Does that sound sensible and fair?


No, you have this one wrong. You are free to do what you want and hopefully that is what you consider fun. However you do NOT have the right to avoid player-on-player interaction. Nobody has that. You can try to avoid player-on-player interaction if you want, but you cannot avoid it by intervention of CCP. If you do not like this, there’s the door.

Sivar Ahishatsu wrote:
I understand this as expressed above. So the alternate approach is to leave Lowsec untouched and make High Sec much better in such a way so that it doe snot feel constrained and limited and boring.

See, many people in Low sec say that they do not like to play the game in nulsec, because large alliances and fleet stuff is not their thing, but then go and demand that high sec players should not have rights to fun and should adhere to the established order..their order in reality.

And that is unfair, don't you think? You do not like it when I suggest that you should be pushed to nullsec, because you do not like to adhere to that established order. Now you probably understand how High sec players may feel too in turn, when low sec come and start spewing about, "live with it", "it is a dystopia", "no safety" ", deal" etc,..


HS does not need to be buffed. If you want to get more out life in HS figure out how to do that. That is your job. Figure out how to bring in pilots to your corporation/alliance, figure out how to make playing with these players more rewarding and interesting. Do not go to CCP and say, “I want to stay in the safest part of the game, have access to resources and ISK making opportunities like the more contested parts of the game, oh and make it fun too.” Go read about this being a sandbox game. That last bit, “fun”, that is up to you.

As for fun, see the above about player-on-player interaction, nobody is saying you don’t have the right to try and have fun in the game, just that you cannot shield yourself from what other players may want to do to you. Most of us find this creates an interesting, challenging and dynamic game environment where we can compete with others and also cooperate.

And no it is not unfair if somebody says, “it is a dystopia, no safety, live with it, etc.” That is what it means to play in a sandbox game.

Sivar Ahishatsu wrote:
From my perspective here it looks like Low sec players are demanding from High sec players to deal with it, but then are crying themselves when expected to deal with it in turn. It cannot work like that.

And this is what CCP needs to finally realise. The game attracts many kinds of players, it has to offer a niche of many different kinds of play styles which are not affected directly by the others, but remain open and are not insular as to permit players to jump from one another as they evolve or their preferences and likes change within EVE.

The days where you force everyone in to one way of playing should come to an end.


Deal with what? CCP intervention on your behalf? Yeah, that’s just wrong. See if a player comes along and “ruins the game” you have the option to “ruin his”. But with CCP that option is gone.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#292 - 2017-04-14 05:57:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Sivar Ahishatsu wrote:

The problem is not overcrowding, the problem is that there is no enough sand in High sec to build sandcastles from in the sandbox. So people are forced to take their shovels and buckets and venture in to lowsec to get more sand where they actually end up not only not getting sand but losing their shovels buckets and carts along with the fun and excitement of the prospect pushed back to no sand highsec.


This is a joke right? There more sand in HS than anywhere else in the game if by that you mean various resources. You can buy just about anything in game in HS, except for perhaps collector’s items. Since all the major trade hubs are in HS and every NS alliance needs those hubs to sell the resources they acquired but do not need and buy those resource they do need. Go have a look at the economic reports CCP quant puts out. Huge amounts of stuff moves in and out of the Forge alone. I did a back of the envelope calculation and the RL value for one month was $33 million (yes, $33 million real U.S. dollars). Do there is no need to take your shovels anywhere, IMO. You just need to find a way to get enough ISK to purchase what you need….and there are plenty of ways to make ISK in HS.

And there are ways to take advantage of LS without dying every single time. I routinely do invention in LS because the manufacturing costs are lower in LS stations. You just have figure out how to minimize your risk. One way to do that is group up.

Sivar Ahishatsu wrote:
Yes I have. and every time it ends up with a fight. Every time.


Then you are doing something wrong. I used to do PI in LS, never had an issue. I do invention in LS, I lost one ship out in dozens of trips (not counting cyno ships). Heck even my cyno ships are rarely attacked.

And your friends who went to LS...did they have voice comms? Were they in fleet? Did they have a scout in a ceptor or a cloaky? Did their ship types make sense or were they kitchen sinking it? And please SP is not nearly the factor that many make it out. I have over 147 million SP, but when I’m in a thorax all my SP for large guns of all racial types are useless. My SP for both Minmatar and Gallente dreads are useless, the SP for Gallente and Amarr carriers...useless. The SP for HACs, Recons, ceptors, dictors, and bombers are all useless.

Sivar Ahishatsu wrote:
I am sorry but that is an awful waste of sand. How many players probably quit because of that very person who in reality may even be making enough from all the kills to be buying PLEX and not even actually giving any revenue to the game. Funny how Dystopias work both ways ;)


This is wrong on a number of fronts. If the people “claiming” that LS system are using it as they see fit that is not a waste of sand...it is what was fully intended by the game developers. It is up to you to go in there and take it from them or negotiate access. As for PLEX you are absolutely and totally wrong. Every PLEX in game has gotten there by somebody giving CCP money. More money than a subscription. So if a LS player is making enough ISK to PLEX his account CCP is not only getting their revenue, but more than a subscription. And you do know that CCP’s own analysis has shown that combat tends to be good for new player retention right?

Sivar Ahishatsu wrote:
The game's universe maybe a Dystopia, but reality is not. And unless you come over and start paying for my Omega accounts you cannot tell me to shut up or tell me that it is hubris for me to express my feedback.


Okay, but I can also comment on your feedback….like you don’t understand the nature of the game. That you think you have a right to play the game and avoid player-on-player interaction when it suits you. That game is not EVE. Never has been and hopefully never will be. If I accept the consequences of flying up to your ship and shooting you in the face...working as the developers have intended. Either get used to that or as you indicated go find a game that is more suited to how you want to play.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Aischa Montagne
Blut-Klauen-Clan
#293 - 2017-04-29 17:08:55 UTC
Teckos Pech , I agree with the other points, However
Quote:
And you do know that CCP’s own analysis has shown that combat tends to be good for new player retention right?

I think you can not conclude from winning your first PvP encounter towards Low Sec experience.
Entering the wrong Low Sec System you get a fight. On others you can stay all days and not have one Issue for days.
It realy depends. There is so much to learn about how to work in Low sec that it is intimidating for a lot of people.
Especially because these things are not obvious. And you can not take your experience for granted.
You have to stay allert in Low sec.
Best is to learn from experienced people. The current information out there do not teach how to behave in Low sec. To learn this you need to invest and loose some ships.

Low Sec is in my opinion after Wormholes the most dangerous space. Then follows 0.0 and High sec.
On 0.0 space a system can be more secure then High sec, or less secure. So I also disagree with the risk 2 reward balancing in this. However 0.0 Security is work while the security in high sec is for free.

However keep in mind that security in eve is always a dynamical thing. And not to be taken granted.
So fly Save!

Aischa
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#294 - 2017-04-30 04:38:57 UTC
Aischa Montagne wrote:
Teckos Pech , I agree with the other points, However
Quote:
And you do know that CCP’s own analysis has shown that combat tends to be good for new player retention right?

I think you can not conclude from winning your first PvP encounter towards Low Sec experience.
Entering the wrong Low Sec System you get a fight. On others you can stay all days and not have one Issue for days.
It realy depends. There is so much to learn about how to work in Low sec that it is intimidating for a lot of people.
Especially because these things are not obvious. And you can not take your experience for granted.
You have to stay allert in Low sec.
Best is to learn from experienced people. The current information out there do not teach how to behave in Low sec. To learn this you need to invest and loose some ships.

Low Sec is in my opinion after Wormholes the most dangerous space. Then follows 0.0 and High sec.
On 0.0 space a system can be more secure then High sec, or less secure. So I also disagree with the risk 2 reward balancing in this. However 0.0 Security is work while the security in high sec is for free.

However keep in mind that security in eve is always a dynamical thing. And not to be taken granted.
So fly Save!

Aischa


I was referring to CCP's analysis of players less than 15 days of age who were ganked in HS. The end results were that those who were ganked stayed the longest, those killed legally (war dec, dual, etc.) stayed almost as long and those who were never killed in their first 15 days stayed the least amount of time.

I'm not saying gank all the newbies, but that shielding them from it won't help with retaining players. Here is he presentation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A92Ge2S8M1Y

Please note, that analysis is not based on a survey but a sample of 80,000 accounts.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Aischa Montagne
Blut-Klauen-Clan
#295 - 2017-04-30 15:37:34 UTC
I know the presentation. Again.
Look at what was looked at:
Players 15 days old.
Probably new Player and not alts.

Focus was Ganking.
<1% was gangked
15% was Killed leagaly
the rest was not killed at all.

I'd say you can not generalize this research.

In general what you can say is that harasment is not a problem in eve.
You can not say that PvP is not an issue for new Players. I men that in the sense of knowledge. I personally assume that a lot of people (look Carebears) have issues with combat.

I do not mean this negative, more constructive.

There is a huge difference between getting Ganked, Getting into a High Sec War and travell through Low Sec.
And this is IMHO something were your example does not match what you want to say.

All the Best
Aischa
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#296 - 2017-04-30 19:48:11 UTC
Aischa Montagne wrote:
I know the presentation. Again.
Look at what was looked at:
Players 15 days old.
Probably new Player and not alts.

Focus was Ganking.
<1% was gangked
15% was Killed leagaly
the rest was not killed at all.

I'd say you can not generalize this research.

In general what you can say is that harasment is not a problem in eve.
You can not say that PvP is not an issue for new Players. I men that in the sense of knowledge. I personally assume that a lot of people (look Carebears) have issues with combat.

I do not mean this negative, more constructive.

There is a huge difference between getting Ganked, Getting into a High Sec War and travell through Low Sec.
And this is IMHO something were your example does not match what you want to say.

All the Best
Aischa


Really, it is interesting you left out the conclusions about player retention. Those who engaged in combat in their first 15 days stayed the longest.

Eve is a boring game really. What makes it interesting is the player-on-player interaction.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Yana Aubaris
Caldamatar Partisan Sisterhood
#297 - 2017-06-21 09:25:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Yana Aubaris
Before i leave i want to say why i do it. I don't care why other people leave. I'll say why i do it, trying to keep up with some constructive dialogue here.

1. My eyesight is getting bad over the years. Every time i play EVE after that i have a headache. It doesn't happen with other games.Only with eve. I understand its a space game and space is supposed to be dark. But EVE is too dark with huge lack of lighting. Also the font is white on a black background. While it should be dark font, on a bright background. I think this issues should be seriously addressed to the developers, because its concerning people's health. Adjusting the intensity of the stars and local lights is a must. Also the "new" tunnel movement between the gates is highly irritating my eyes.

2.The code - no comment about it, too much has been spoken. I don't care what motivates the new players. I'm a 3 years old player and the 20000 people that are missing from the game are not 15 days newbros. In the presentation CCP says - "we need experienced players" - well may be CCP should finally try to keep them.

Yes, i agree EVE is not fluffy and pink place to hang around. I have lost more then 40b of ships so far. No problem with that. The problem is when i loose them not expecting it. If i venture around 0.0 and someone kills my JF. So be it. I took the risk. But to loose my implants , because i was podded at Poinen (not even Uedama), just because i pressed autopilot, so i can go to pee. No this is not fun. I feel someone rapes me. This is how people feel when someone makes sex with them , unwillingly, right? I like sex, i don't like being raped. I think its time CCP to get this.

While we are still on the topic, because its sticky: I do pay for the game sometimes. And just like someone here said - no, i don't like to give my money for feeling raped. Noone does.Are you telling me the rapists give money for the game? They make a PLEX from people like me for an hour. I have to dig ice for a week with 4 accounts.

3.The game is spinning around Skills farming, Plex, ISK per hour, Ganking, Wardec for the sake of ganking and such. What kept me so long was the fiction stories, the SCI-FI inventions and technologies. The unknown in EVE - so much to learn about., chemistry, probing, PI, building stuff. That's why all carebears still stay in the game i guess. So this is where i ended up - between the newbros and the oligarchs, who own the market. More or less like in real life. With the difference that here i can quit.

4.I have a job.A girlfriend. Friends to hang out with. Corporation life requires huge time commitment.So , don't tell me EVE is a team game. No, There is part of EVE , which is to be played SOLO.I will not sacrifice my RL for EVE....I did it once, not doing it again.
So here comes the realization, that EVE requires too much from me, as i cant keep playing solo.That's why i prefer to go.

I highly suspect big part of these 20000 people are people like me

5. No fun.Same old lvl 4 solo missions. Even if we team up for lvl5 its still same old boring stuff. Ratting. Mining. Same old stuff. Sister of EVE missions are so-so. Gate camping - Ive done it , not my style staying like a duck whole day.Got more important things to do in life, rather then measuring my d**size..
Events ? Mindlessly grinding for a drop rate 1/10 for something which costs 15mln on the market. The only fun for me at the moment are the COSMOS missions. And sadly lots of them are bugged.

GENERALLY - Eve is very, very, very boring game. Which goal is accumulating money and riches now? It wasn't like that before. And I'm not saying that because i was young and excited player. It just too much stinks commercialism at the moment.

6.No place to live. Nullsec taken by huge alliances. Low sec is a joke - its used primarily for gate camping, as well as cyno logistics. Noone mines there. Noone does missions there. Noone is even scanning for anomalies. HiSec is more dangerous than nullsec at the moment. 70% of my assets were lost in HS.

7. Centralization of the market.Everything is in JITA now. Impossible to make t2 from reactions if i don't go at least once a day shopping to JITA. Rens is almost dead. Others are dying slowly too. I simply don't want to warp, jump, warp, jump all my life. And I'm catching myself doing this 90% of my time in the last 3 years. Seriously games mechanics in therms of traveling are f* up. When my gf asks me "are you playing EVE?", i usually answer "No, I'm traveling to JITA"
CCP, don't you guys realize how ridiculous and time consuming all this warping is? The game is not dynamic.Period. While at same time the PvP battles i am involved into last no more then 30 secs.

8.Talking about the security in HS. I cant go out with a Marauder- It will be killed in no time , just because its shiny. I cant go mining ice, because there is a guy in Hentogaira with 25+ skiffs , which noone ganks.OR there is a Machiarel for bumping on every ice belt in Caldari space. Almost every 0.5 (and not only )of the gates are potentially ganking camped. Jita is camped all the time. This is not how the game is supposed to look like, I'm sorry. If i was a newbie and if i knew all that, i would never start playing.
That answers the ultimate question why all people still play, even though they got ganked - because they invested too much time, money and effort to quit - NOT BECAUSE THE GAME IS FUN!
All the patience of these people will be depleted one day and you ,CCP ,will never get to know the reason for this , using your statistics.

Re-submiting?Lets face it - people do it because there is no other MMO game of the sort.
Enough bitching. I'll make another post , trying to give some suggestions, how i see it, so can CCP do something about it, if they wish. After all we have to be constructive here.
Bing Bangboom
DAMAG Safety Commission
#298 - 2017-06-23 21:02:12 UTC
Yana Aubaris wrote:
Before i leave i want to say why i do it. I don't care why other people leave. I'll say why i do it, trying to keep up with some constructive dialogue here.



You're posting on an alt so its hard to know what your actual experience in Eve was beyond what you have described for us. But it seems like you never embraced the pvp aspect of the game. Your one mention of pvp (gate camping) is one of the most boring types plus tends to just be blobbing rather than actual competition.

When you say Eve is a boring game I, like other pvpers, know you haven't participated in the portion of the game that IS exciting. So exciting in fact that the adrenaline rush that results is like nothing experienced in any other game. There is just nothing like it and once you have had it, you crave it from then on. Unfortunately, after a few thousand battles its harder to get that feeling but it does happen, even then.

People quit Eve because they never figure out how to just go out and shoot someone. They spend too much time acquiring assets thinking they need better skills, better ships, better friends. They don't. They just need to go find someone and shoot them in the face. Yeah, its better to win so you work on perfecting your fits, honing your tactics, discarding what doesn't work. But you have to lock onto that first target, press the damn trigger and watch your shields evaporate, the warnings screech, the " the module has run out of charges" (I KNOW THAT B*#*@H! RELOAD FASTER!) and the explosion. Hopefully the other guy's.

Gives me the shivers just to think about it. Couldn't even work the mouse for minutes after in those early days. But its a hook like no drug you can buy.

I understand that this isn't for everyone. As I said, I can't see your killboard so I can only speculate that your pvp experience (except for the gate camping which is BORING) is as a target. If pvp is something you only avoid, not seek, you WILL burn out on this game. Without pvp as your goal everything else you do is pointless. You have now realized this.

If you choose to be a pvper you will lose ships, you will be tricked and trapped, you will be ridiculed when you lose, you will be insulted when you win, you will have to figure out some way to pay for it all without PvEing for hours... but you will enjoy the game.

This game IS fun. More fun than any other. But no one is going to make it fun for you. You have to do it yourself. Go try to kill someone. You don't even have to have a reason like my fellow Agents and I do. Although that helps a lot.

Sorry about your eyes. I have some of those same issues.

Highsec is worth fighting for.

By choosing to mine in New Order systems, highsec miners have agreed to follow the New Halaima Code of Conduct.  www.minerbumping.com

Black Pedro
Mine.
#299 - 2017-06-24 06:56:09 UTC
Yana Aubaris wrote:
GENERALLY - Eve is very, very, very boring game. Which goal is accumulating money and riches now? It wasn't like that before. And I'm not saying that because i was young and excited player. It just too much stinks commercialism at the moment.
You've hit upon the problem. Eve Online is a very, very, very boring game if all you do is play it to accumulate unneeded wealth. It was like this before, and it will likely stay this way until the servers get shut off. All that has happened is that you have either bored of the current scripted content and cannot find anything else to engage you, or you have reached a greater level of awareness and understand now that a greater competitive purpose is needed to give any point at all to your actions.

Neither of these things is something to get upset over. If you have tired of the grind of Eve's PvE content just move on and find another game you do like. If PvP and/or competing with the other players for things in New Eden interests you but you haven't found a way to experience it, I would suggest you mix things up and try something new, but if you don't want competition with other players in your gaming experience, then just move along. Grinding ISK will not get anymore interesting for you than it already is.

I do agree CCP has added an unpleasant whiff of commercialism with their recent efforts at monetizing the game. Still, so far I have been able to tune most of that out and ignore most of the tawdriness. That may not always be the case and at some point I will tire of my sandbox game waging psychological war against me in an attempt to part me with my money, so I completely understand if someone has had enough. CCP is walking a fine line with these monetization tricks for a game I pay a (hefty by modern standards) monthly subscription to play.

I will also say I think you have overestimated the risk to yourself in highsec. It isn't zero, but many people operate with no problem every day. Normal (T2) fit Marauders are rarely, if ever exploded, as with tanked Procurer/Skiffs. Only when you play Eve as a progression game and fit more and more expensive modules to eek out a bit more profit will you run into problems when someone calls you on your greed.

If you aren't happy playing though, just leave. There is no point making yourself miserable in your free time. Eve Online isn't not going to change for you. Not now, 15 years into the experiment.
Random Lurker
Critical Strike
Nuclear Confusion
#300 - 2017-06-24 17:02:10 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:


Seriously, if you put 8 billion in a freighter you are just begging to get ganked in this game. The expected drop is 4 billion. 4 billion pays for 500 good damn catalysts. 500. If you put 8 billion in your freighter you can pretty much expect to be ganked in short order. You might get away with it a few times, but one you are seen with that kind of cargo that's it. You are going to get ganked.

This is what I call being imprudent. IRL it would be like taking your 401k and putting it all in 1 stock....and then when that stock goes **** up you sit there and talk about how unfair it all is while it was your own greed and imprudence that lead you to the horrible situation you are in.

Stop being imprudent and you'll have very little to fear from gankers.


NOT the same lol.. just proves how little you know of EVE and how little you know of Real life...
1. putting money in 401k is not the same as putting items in your freighter
2. If someone is stupid in real life it doesnt give you the right to kill them on their way to the bank..