These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Will Buying Skill Points Ruin The Game?

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#41 - 2016-01-30 12:09:12 UTC
Trader20 wrote:
TLDR Version: I think it raises the bar in EvE to allow players to purchase sp. Easier for newbs to transfer into the game and gives vets more power to complete their goals. So no it won't ruin the game only enhance it.

I would suggest that this is all illusiory.
It won't be easier for newbs to transfer in - it will seem easier for newbs to transfer in until the realise how much it will cost; it moves the "bar" from time to money - and the guy who sells ten PLEX to get a start in the game still won't know how his Navy Raven (fit with the following...) got killed by the two guys in frigates.

For the mid-term players (six months to a year perhaps?) who want to try something different from levelling their Raven in Osmon it does offer the opportunity to grab a load of exploration SP quickly. For Doctrine fleet based warfare it offers the F1 monkey the chance to switch to the latest fleet type immediately. For the youngish R&D alt it offers the ability to switch to the new profitable BPCs as the market shifts...

For new players, discovering the game step by step... All it does is make them feel that they're missing out by not buying SP.

Malcanis law, once again - the only people who're really going to get real benefit out of this change are the entrenched powerbase - the high SP characters (who will turn time into money) and the big 0.0 powerblocks (who will turn money into time)...
Arakkoa
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#42 - 2016-01-30 12:56:36 UTC
Trader20 wrote:
WARNING: Long Post!! Please keep thread civilized so we can (hopefully) avoid a lock. Thank You

TLDR Version: I think it raises the bar in EvE to allow players to purchase sp. Easier for newbs to transfer into the game and gives vets more power to complete their goals. So no it won't ruin the game only enhance it.

The upcoming buying sp has got me thinking. Will it be that much of an impact on the game and can a complete newbie with bought skill points surpass vets that do not wish to buy sp? Here's some factors that may effect the game.

So a newbie with crazy cash starts playing and buys a lot of sp on a new char........

1. Knowing Good Fits/Ships to Fly

Getting a good ship/fit requires two things, isk and knowledge whether taken off a forum/battle clinic or taught from a veteran or experience. Isk can be bought so that's not a factor but doing the research and test fits will take time and effort.

2. Rotation

So a newbie has a pimped out ship/fit now what? Knowing what to do and when to do it. This is where "skill" comes in. Best learnt from experience and I believe pvp is better experienced then taught. There is no substitute for experience so vets will def have a leg up on this point. Just because you have a expensive ship/fit does not mean you will be any good at pvp.

3. Reputation

This is where a huge split will be. Since you can't buy a impressive killboard (I think?) new players will obviously have less credibility then a veteran. On the other hand corps/alliances will most likely accept a newbie with a lot of sp and they may just teach him how to use those sp properly.

So that's where I believe newbies will benefit from. Now for the vet alt factor.

1. Increased Accounts

Players will most likely take advantage of this and skill up another alt. More accounts = More money for CCP = Better game? (I think)

2. Encouraged Solo/Alt PvP

A vet gets ahold of a new skilled out alt and multiboxes whether for rr or just to melt face with. This may give a boost to solo/alt pvp which is where this game really shines (imo). I would feel more confident doing solo with a skilled out alt backing me up.

3. Leetness

Suck at the game? Tired of being trampled on? Buy an ewar alt and bang, you just became leet... yes it's that easy (bad joke) Lol

That's it tell me what ya'll think.


I think you have a great Idea
Flitz Farseeker
Gang Bang You're Dead
Wrecktical Supremacy.
#43 - 2016-01-30 15:25:04 UTC
Trader20 wrote:
A vet gets ahold of a new skilled out alt and multiboxes whether for rr or just to melt face with. This may give a boost to solo/alt pvp which is where this game really shines (imo). I would feel more confident doing solo with a skilled out alt backing me up.
It's not 'solo' if you have an alt backing you up.
Nalia White
Tencus
#44 - 2016-01-30 15:31:50 UTC
i am at the point of not caring about this feature at all. i mean there is already the character basar so saying stuff like "there will now be instant gratification in eve" is partly wrong because there already is. The only difference now is that it is possible to control the avatar you created with the name you chose.

Syndicate - K5-JRD

Home to few, graveyard for many

My biggest achievement
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#45 - 2016-01-30 16:33:05 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:

This "one more" was the straw that broke the camel's back. Char Bazaar was tolerable because of RMT abuse, but this is CCP taken full advantage of that excuse to introduce flat out pay2win in Eve to max out the mighty bucks. CCP lies, deceives, betrays and try to manipulate everyone into thinking that it's the same as Char Bazaar but better. Better? For whom? And for what purpose? ...CCP goes silent.

I can see only scrubs been fully taken in by this cheap insta-gratifying feature because they never want to earn things like everyone else and is always looking for the easy win solutions.


So, no one listened to you about the change because you went with the "Don't implement or your game will die" ultimatum argument, you are apparently not leaving the game(??????) and have resorted to name calling. That is classy Roll

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#46 - 2016-01-30 16:40:47 UTC
Nothing will change. Ppl are just butt hurt and bitter because they think someone else will be able to get where they are faster than it took them. Who cares. Keep doing whatever it is you're doing and keep your nose in your own business. Problem solved.

/thread

Daemun of Khanid
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#47 - 2016-01-30 17:11:34 UTC
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:
Did Buying Characters(Char Bazar) Ruin The Game?


This isn't quite the same as the bazaar.

CCP has been quite clever in that the only SP that is getting sold is SP coming out of another character, so it is similar to the bazaar. However, my concern is that a subset of players might find a way to turn this to their advantage relative to other players.

And if you want an example that could have ruined the game...how about the faction war LP "exploit"? CCP did not see it coming, some players did, they warned CCP, CCP ignored them so they used the exploit massively to show CCP their folly.

Or let me put it this way:

Did car insurance "ruin" the economies of the world in 2008/2009?

Did credit default swaps (another type of insurance) play a big role in "ruining" the economies of the world in 2008/2009?

The point is that just because people cannot see the problem does not mean there isn't one.

Oh...and why does the standard have to be "ruin the game"? Tracking titans weren't going to "ruin the game" they just made it less fun and pointed people to a specific end game for NS PvP. Not very appealing for those of us who don't really want a Titan.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#48 - 2016-01-30 17:20:55 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
Still weighing in my head the possible pros and cons of this.
I do intend to take advantage of it myself, to redistribute some skills I never use into skills I will use.

I'm looking forward to it, for better or for worse, because it's going to give the instant gratification players all the rope they need to hang themselves. PLEX bridged the ISK gap between newer and older players, allowing them to score the shiny toys they could never afford otherwise early in the game. Now the dreaded and mythical 'SP Wall' is going to become climbable, for a meager fee of course.
There's no way this could possibly go wrong, right?
I mean they're finally getting what they want?

*dons lobster bib*

I personally cannot wait to see capsuleers who are less than two weeks old flying around in faction battleships, sporting their green and purple fits, derping around high sec mission hubs.
The thought of it has me positively salivating.

Something something Charles Darwin.... Something something PT Barnum.

But yeah. Time will tell.
My big fear is the insatiable appetite of the many who crave even more concessions complaining that this is still not enough.


I have to admit that part of me is looking forward to this. Now we can test alot of these claims by people about the "SP wall", "gating", etc. Why after this change we should see a strong upward trend in players on line. Soon™ we should be back to the halcyon days of 50,000 players on during the peak and not too long after that we'll break the record. Those were the claims right? We'll be swamped with new players eager to dive in who can quickly and effectively cross the SP Speed Bump (c'mon it wont be a "wall" anymore right?).

Subscription, a couple of PLEX (one for SP injectors, and 1 for ISK or some such) and you are off and running with the best of them...and the awesome thing is that the SP has come from the evil Wicked Witch of the West, aka veteran players.

And yes, you are probably right in this "it won't be enough". Hanging out in Player's Features and Ideas sub-forum will show that. The vast majority of the "ideas and suggestions" can be simply summarized as "Buff my style of play". The sense of entitlement is strong in many players.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Paranoid Loyd
#49 - 2016-01-30 17:43:39 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Which is exactly the same as any other P2W game.
No Lucas, it's not, but that's some nice bait.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#50 - 2016-01-30 18:31:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
Its more like redistributing SP, not really buying like from CCP fresh unused SP.

Redistribution is recycling. It depends on few more factors, than new, fresh SP directly from CCP that they could sell for additional money, but they dont!

Redistribution depends on availability, speed of aquiring new SP, willingness to profit on them, willingness to diminish your pool, price on the market for SP, style of play, willingness to buy SP, ISK availability for characters, Willingness to buy AU, and many others....

Its hard to tell how it will end, but it allows many new possibilities for everyone, new and old, for a cost of few people resigning from the game because CCP "knifed them in the back" as they say.

ᴇᴠᴇʀʏ ᴘᴀʀᴛ ᴏғ ᴀ ɢᴀᴍᴇ ʜᴇʟᴘs ᴛᴏ ᴛᴇʟʟ ᴀ sᴛᴏʀʏ 📕

ᴡʜᴇʀᴇ ɪs ᴀɴɢʀʏ ᴄᴏɴᴄᴏʀᴅ ɢᴜʏ ᴡʜᴇɴ ʏᴏᴜ ɴᴇᴇᴅ ʜɪᴍ

ᴏsᴘʀᴇʏ 🚀

≡⋁≡ ♥
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#51 - 2016-01-30 18:43:11 UTC
Jacob Holland wrote:
Trader20 wrote:
TLDR Version: I think it raises the bar in EvE to allow players to purchase sp. Easier for newbs to transfer into the game and gives vets more power to complete their goals. So no it won't ruin the game only enhance it.

I would suggest that this is all illusiory.
It won't be easier for newbs to transfer in - it will seem easier for newbs to transfer in until the realise how much it will cost; it moves the "bar" from time to money - and the guy who sells ten PLEX to get a start in the game still won't know how his Navy Raven (fit with the following...) got killed by the two guys in frigates.

For the mid-term players (six months to a year perhaps?) who want to try something different from levelling their Raven in Osmon it does offer the opportunity to grab a load of exploration SP quickly. For Doctrine fleet based warfare it offers the F1 monkey the chance to switch to the latest fleet type immediately. For the youngish R&D alt it offers the ability to switch to the new profitable BPCs as the market shifts...

For new players, discovering the game step by step... All it does is make them feel that they're missing out by not buying SP.

Malcanis law, once again - the only people who're really going to get real benefit out of this change are the entrenched powerbase - the high SP characters (who will turn time into money) and the big 0.0 powerblocks (who will turn money into time)...


Not sure that this will will be a case of Malcanis' Law. Malcanis' Law is that any change designed specifically to help new players will be, to an overwhelming extent, a benefit to older more established players.

He also generalized it along the lines of,

Quote:
"Any change that is made to privilege a specific group in an open, classless game will invariably be to the greater benefit of older, richer, more experienced players"


While it is probably true that those who use the SP market the most will be new players, much like with the character bazaar...but that only looks at half of the picture. In the character bazaar the new players are often the buyers of characters. The sellers are most likely our older, richer, more experienced players (i.e. the veteran players). Since market transactions are voluntary it also follows that both sides are gaining--i.e. exchange, trade, market transactions are, a priori, mutually beneficial. It is absolutely not a zero sum game here.

Further, IMO, the character bazaar was created for another reason: reducing one aspect of RMT, where characters are sold for RL money outside the game. Much like how PLEX are really thinly veiled ways for players to buy and sell ISK which certainly does put a serious dent in ISK RMT the same is true with the character bazaar. Since RMT can be bad for a game in general, CCP's attempt to make the game better in general (the character bazaar) is not a case of Malcanis' law.

The same can be said here as well. I have an alt and I have him trained to where I want him--i.e. I am only training him because I want to use him for in game Stuff™ but essentially he is "done training for now." I could turn him into an SP farm. Now, what do we know? We know that 30 days of game time is worth, right now about 1.2 billion ISK. Breaking that down on an hourly basis is 1.6667 million ISK/day. Which divided by 2610 (the theoretical max SP one could train/hour) to about 635.57 ISK/SP/hour translating into about 1.194 billion ISK/month from SP farming. Oh look, I can just about pay for a PLEX for that account. Doing a few other things in game (e.g. ratting for a hour) will cover the rest.

So now, we have a class of players who switch from RL money payments for their account to PLEX with virtually no effort. Is that potentially bad? After all, market transactions are mutually beneficial right? Well you have another class of players who are essentially paying 2 subscriptions. Passive income sources are often perceived as bad and here one is being deliberately created. v0v

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#52 - 2016-01-30 18:43:29 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:

I have to admit that part of me is looking forward to this. Now we can test alot of these claims by people about the "SP wall", "gating", etc. Why after this change we should see a strong upward trend in players on line. Soon™ we should be back to the halcyon days of 50,000 players on during the peak and not too long after that we'll break the record. Those were the claims right? We'll be swamped with new players eager to dive in who can quickly and effectively cross the SP Speed Bump (c'mon it wont be a "wall" anymore right?).

Subscription, a couple of PLEX (one for SP injectors, and 1 for ISK or some such) and you are off and running with the best of them...and the awesome thing is that the SP has come from the evil Wicked Witch of the West, aka veteran players.

And yes, you are probably right in this "it won't be enough". Hanging out in Player's Features and Ideas sub-forum will show that. The vast majority of the "ideas and suggestions" can be simply summarized as "Buff my style of play". The sense of entitlement is strong in many players.


The claim from whom? I have never heard or read CCP claim this, who said it will bring 50000 players online? Do you have a link? For me it seems like you are deliberately lying or exaggerating, to create a case that would put you in a position to say "I told you it did not increase numbers".

All I have read them claim is that people should have the possibility to be able to close the gap to the vetarans. And this clam is full of ambiquity, so good luck catching them on that one. I think most people understand that this is implemented for CCP to earn more money. Nothing wrong with that.

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#53 - 2016-01-30 18:47:25 UTC
Nana Skalski wrote:
Its more like redistributing SP, not really buying like from CCP fresh unused SP.

Redistribution is recycling. It depends on few more factors, than new, fresh SP directly from CCP that they could sell for additional money, but they dont!

Redistribution depends on availability, speed of aquiring new SP, willingness to profit on them, willingness to diminish your pool, price on the market for SP, style of play, willingness to buy SP, ISK availability for characters, Willingness to buy AU, and many others....

Its hard to tell how it will end, but it allows many new possibilities for everyone, new and old, for a cost of few people resigning from the game because CCP "knifed them in the back" as they say.



And some of the SP will be sunk out of the game for those who inject SP past the 5 million SP threshold.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#54 - 2016-01-30 18:50:47 UTC
sero Hita wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

I have to admit that part of me is looking forward to this. Now we can test alot of these claims by people about the "SP wall", "gating", etc. Why after this change we should see a strong upward trend in players on line. Soon™ we should be back to the halcyon days of 50,000 players on during the peak and not too long after that we'll break the record. Those were the claims right? We'll be swamped with new players eager to dive in who can quickly and effectively cross the SP Speed Bump (c'mon it wont be a "wall" anymore right?).

Subscription, a couple of PLEX (one for SP injectors, and 1 for ISK or some such) and you are off and running with the best of them...and the awesome thing is that the SP has come from the evil Wicked Witch of the West, aka veteran players.

And yes, you are probably right in this "it won't be enough". Hanging out in Player's Features and Ideas sub-forum will show that. The vast majority of the "ideas and suggestions" can be simply summarized as "Buff my style of play". The sense of entitlement is strong in many players.


The claim from whom? I have never heard or read CCP claim this, who said it will bring 50000 players online? Do you have a link? For me it seems like you are deliberately lying or exaggerating, to create a case that would put you in a position to say "I told you it did not increase numbers".

All I have read them claim is that people should have the possibility to be able to close the gap to the vetarans. And this clam is full of ambiquity, so good luck catching them on that one. I think most people understand that this is implemented for CCP to earn more money. Nothing wrong with that.


Did I say it was from CCP? Please work on your reading comprehension here. There were a number of threads on SP, starting SP, "gating" the "SP wall" etc. from a number of players. Some even want to eliminate SP entirely, effectively set everyone's SP to level V for all skills in the game. And yes, there are a number of claims regarding how it will bring new players to the game.

Your ignorance is not my problem. Oh, and might want to look towards fixing your sarcasm meter. The claims about how the game will grow are not mine, but others.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#55 - 2016-01-30 19:20:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Epeen
Quote:
Will Buying Skill Points Ruin The Game?


I ask myself how making SP acquisition more efficient has affected the game in the past.

Did adding an official Character Trading forum destroy the game?
Did the removal of Ghost Training ruin the game as many at the time whined?
Did the addition of PLEX to the game to make buying SP available with ISK kill the game was screamed in the forum?
Did the removal of Training Skills ruin the game as many at the time shouted to anyone that would listen?
Did the addition of a 24 hour skill queue make the game collapse as many warned would happen?
Did the even more excessive addition to the skill queue destroy EVE as we know it as many espoused?
Did multiple character training drop the player base by half as was told us by the forum elites?

Will SP Packs kill the game? Ask me again in five years.

Mr Epeen Cool
Bondor Zanphre
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2016-01-30 19:57:43 UTC
I think sp change will help current players consolidate or specialize characters. It will help newer players get started over the initial phase. It shouldn't ruin the game unless we the player base ruin the new player experience for the new player ourselves.

Eve is a long haul type of game, I'm not sure how long instant pilots will stay when the new car smell is gone. CCP will need to create content geared to keep newer pilots interested in our sandbox. CCP has done a great job of reinventing the game. They can create new goals, skills, hulls to keep the current and future community entertained and queued up for many years to come.
Altair Taurus
#57 - 2016-01-30 20:59:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Altair Taurus
sero Hita wrote:
I think most people understand that this is implemented for CCP to earn more money. Nothing wrong with that.


Good point! However I am afraid some haters are against this great change but CCP and majority of players will move forward regardless. CCP will earn tons of money and we will be able to fly decent ships quickly. Lol

At all events I must prepare training queue...pardon...cash for skill injectors for Vargur, Widow and Prophecy! P
morion
Lighting Build
#58 - 2016-01-30 21:36:22 UTC  |  Edited by: morion
...
Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
#59 - 2016-01-30 23:39:25 UTC
You know what's going to be killed? My ingame wallet!

@lunettelulu7
Pryce Caesar
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2016-01-31 01:16:27 UTC
I do not think buying skill points will ruin the game because, in the long term, a single Skill Injector will hardly make a dent. At the base level, they are only at their best when a) you have below 5 million skillpoints, and b) you are applying them to Rank 1 or 2 skills, because it is only at those levels where you can get near instant skill level ups to Level 5 (in-between 5 mill and 80 mill, the Injector only automatically gives Level 5 Rank 1 skills).

True, even with 80 mill skillpoints they give out enough skillpoints (150,000) to immediately level up a Titan's skills to Level 3. But for any player who has played long enough to competently fly a Titan, it doesn't matter, because you already have so many skillpoints that adding on such a small amount doesn't mean much.

At best, they would be used by veteran players to take skillpoints from skills they do not use anymore, and contracted out to their alts or corp members to give players with less game time a boost to specific skills.