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Science & Industry

 
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Industry vs. Mining
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Amarrchecko
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2016-01-25 17:00:08 UTC
As my mining crew has neared perfect skills and my wallet has grown (relatively) fat from chipping away at nullsec rocks for a couple of months, I've begun looking into what goes on down the line from the mining itself. I knew there was a lot, but I never really realized how much goes into the creation of a simple t2 module (let alone a ship). I never really thought about the issues of moon locations and refining taxes and shipping costs/risks and BPO/BPC acquisition. I never though about the difficulties involved in trying to supply an alliance/coalition with the huge variety of products it demands even though many of the items needed are needed in relatively small amounts and balancing the desire for personal profit with the desire for providing a service as a team player. Etc.

Corps that bill themselves as "industrial corps" or who are recruiting "industrialists" seem to usually be talking strictly about mining. If anything beyond mining, hauling, and some simple pi/t1 manufacture happens in the vast majority of "industrial corps" ... I'd be very surprised.

So where does this all happen? All this hardcore indy stuff? Is it just individuals or small cadres within larger groups who have taught themselves? Or are there corps that actually touch on all these elements out there? What about corps that work with new players in all these elements rather than just using them for cheap ore?
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#2 - 2016-01-25 17:28:05 UTC
Amarrchecko wrote:

So where does this all happen? All this hardcore indy stuff? Is it just individuals or small cadres within larger groups who have taught themselves? Or are there corps that actually touch on all these elements out there? What about corps that work with new players in all these elements rather than just using them for cheap ore?


F10, manufacturing system cost index filter. That's where it's happening.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#3 - 2016-01-25 17:30:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Zifrian
Amarrchecko wrote:
So where does this all happen? All this hardcore indy stuff? Is it just individuals or small cadres within larger groups who have taught themselves? Or are there corps that actually touch on all these elements out there? What about corps that work with new players in all these elements rather than just using them for cheap ore?

I've seen some corps do it but there has to be an incentive to participate. Most indy manufacturing I see is done by solo members (with alts), even in corporations - the building is handled by a small number of people. I've toyed around with the idea of making a corp based on indy to include mining/manufacturing/pvp but not sure how much interest there is for something like this.

It's a bit of work to figure out contributions to manufacturing and then splitting up the profits. How do you price out making a carrier? If it's just who harvests minerals that's possible but what if you have others making components? How do you compensate them for time when you can just use an alt? Maybe you could split out the savings over the market from building the item and the final product - i.e. I save 50k isk making it, then the final product has a profit of 100k, so you get a portion of the percentage of the final profit? What if it doesn't profit? Dear god, that sounds not fun.

I don't think the profit sharing is there beyond mining because it's easy but I'd like to hear other ideas.

BTW, this is what I was hoping teams would do. A person starts a team to build an item and sets the costs for building the items he/she needs. Then others join the team to build the components for the item and gets a bonus based on skills or something as part of the team and gets paid when delivering the items. Something like that, which promotes cooperative manufacturing.

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SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#4 - 2016-01-25 17:40:44 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Zifrian wrote:

It's a bit of work to figure out contributions to manufacturing and then splitting up the profits. How do you price out making a carrier? If it's just who harvests minerals that's possible but what if you have others making components?


The same way any real company would do it - with intracompany sales.

The miners sell minerals to the component manufacturers, who sell components to the ship assemblers.

In practice, though, the non-existent barriers to entry for most of production rather make this all fall apart and the far saner thing to do is for one guy and his army of alts to buy minerals in Jita, JF them to his POS, stuff them into Thukkers, and throw a carrier together when they're done baking.

Manufacturing is too trivially parallelized by a single player for it to really make sense as a corp activity.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
ZmajOgnjeniVuk
Doomheim
#5 - 2016-01-27 08:57:21 UTC
As stated before, a lot of large scale industrial projects I've come across has always been run by a solo guy/tight-knit buddies opposed to an "Industrial Corporation".

Like you stated, the majority of "Indy Corp" ads I see on Recruitment are looking for miners.
Shallanna Yassavi
qwertz corp
#6 - 2016-01-31 01:48:36 UTC
Most people like to blowthings up. They used to like have delusions of grandeur and want to take over the universe, but they don't seem to do that any more.

Mining is something you do while you chat and scheme with friends about how to blow things up and/or make your neighbor's life interesting.

A signature :o
Sir Francis Bacon
Weary Travelers
#7 - 2016-02-09 09:47:39 UTC
Like everybody is saying, it's true that most 'industrial' corporations are mining corporations with one or two guys running the factories. Mining is easy to manage, most corps will have some sort of ore buy back program - either calculated with a spreadsheet or on a web page.

When you move up to research, manufacturing, and invention it becomes a lot more complicated. How do you the delegate these jobs to your members? Do your members get paid directly for these jobs or is it voluntary? Most importantly, how does this activity help the corp achieve its goals?

Of course this will vary from corp to corp, but it's never an easy solution. For example, my corporation is attempting to manage a vertically integrated industrial operation with the help of automated record keeping and inventory management via api integration on our website. This will allow us to coordinate our efforts very easily, and reward our members appropriately for their participation.
Sir SmashAlot
The League of Extraordinary Opportunists
Intergalactic Conservation Movement
#8 - 2016-02-12 02:36:33 UTC
Mining corps are the easiest model to manage and build an equitable system for people to get together on a common task. Most commonly seen with newer players but larger and older dedicated mining corps exist. Some people REALLY love mining.

A word of advise to new players, if you are offered an ore buyback system at a discount to Jita (nearest major market hub), you are being scammed. Argue all you want (many have), someone is profiting from your time.

As corporation ambitions grow difficulties emerge. First is theft, good industrial corps can amass a lot of assets, which can be too tempting for some to resist. Second is the complexity required to maintain an equitable system for members. Coordinating through time zones, value attribution, skill coordination, logistics responsibility, asset control, job delegation, morale management are just a few issues that pop up.

After a long day at whatever you do, would you like to play Internet Middle Management? That is fantastic there are dozens of aspiring industrial corps looking for someone just like you!

In the long run industrial corps will dissolve from theft or frustration into a corporation with one to few individuals (usually real life friends) managing many accounts as the in game roles and tools available are insufficient to compete against the market.

I have seen many attempts to develop tools to herd cats but in the end the human factor creates too many inefficiencies and risks.

Instead of management tools consider social tools that bind members through activities both inside and outside of EVE, this will have an infinitely greater benefit over any amazing spreadsheet or web tool.
Smart Bomb
Nomad Collective
OnlyHoles
#9 - 2016-02-12 04:00:38 UTC
Amarrchecko Message me in game I may have the opportunity you are looking for :)
Lineothel
Matari Retail Corporation
#10 - 2016-02-12 18:17:01 UTC
Amarrchecko,

I have evemailed you with some basic information. Let me know if you have any other questions or concerns.

Thanks,
Lineothel