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Worst Ship Bonus Thread
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#81 - 2011-12-16 01:26:28 UTC
Cambarus wrote:
The sleip has 29% better pulse tank, and caps out running only its tank in a minute and a half. The scim will never cap out running only its tank (caps out in a minute and a half running 2 of its reps, or 2:45 with the tank+MWD). Sleip is better IMO (even that being debateable) but not by much. I would wager that the smaller sig radius alone is enough to offset that difference.


Are you SERIOUSLY claiming that a XL booster vs L booster is 29% better pulse tank? Man talk about being "intentionally dense".

Quote:

A scimi with just a MWD is already a good 500m/s faster than a basi. That's quite noticeable, without even diving in to nanos and whatnot.


Nah, its worth remembering that nano faggotry isn't all about speed (though it certainly helps). If you aren't nano fit, you have a very similar align time to a Basi and neither the Basi nor the Scim are looking very healthy on speed. This is really an exact variant of what we have both agreed on with regards to EM/Exp drone velocities.

Quote:

You're still looking at it from a one or the other standpoint. You haven't addressed the issue at all.
A mix of the 3, if you had the numbers to do it, would be the absolute ideal.


No. Stop being intentionally dense. Yes - combining all three is great for ONE PERSON... but you know whats even better? Bringing more DPS ships. From the perspective of the FLEET it really isn't absolutely ideal.

Quote:
Smaller ships tend to leave in a hurry when rapiers show up. Not so much for an oneiros. "HAH! That dread can't hit me, I'm not even webbed!" BOOM.


So now we're down to arguments like this:
- The active tank bonus on T2 haulers isn't useless because you can use it to bait pirates in low sec.
- The Prophecy isn't useless because its easier to get fights with it than a Hurricane.
- The DPS bonuses on covops aren't useless because you can LOLSURPRISE! and occasionally kill something.
- The cap use bonus on EAFs isn't useless because LOL you use it every time you use an ewar mod!

Again: Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean its the best way to do it.

-_-

Quote:

I also think that these two quotes of yours are pretty ******* priceless - first you admit total ignorance to the topic at hand and then tell someone that's done it for 2-3 years 4-6 hours/day that they don't know the topic. Lol
- "You are right about one thing though, I have no experience flying active tanked logis. Nor do I fly them in lowsec. "
- "Stick to talking about the need for a local tank on lowsec gates. You obviously have no ******* clue about Logis."

Bolded the important bits. Stop being intentionally dense, we have enough people who run around here doing that as it is Sad


Comments:
- You obviously don't run logis in small gangs, because you just don't seem to have the first clue about how the fights go down (low sec or not).
- You don't have experience with active tanked logis, yet you insist on trying to talk about them and tell me how an active tank bonused Scim would have as much tank as an XL Sleip. You then go on to talk about the cap situation on active tanked logis in complete and total ignorance.
- You are trying to invalidate my opinion on Scim vs Basi because of "low sec" by claiming its the only place I fly. Did you know that 2 years ago they put sentry guns at planets and belts in low sec? Also, if you live in low sec, sentry guns follow you around on grid when you enter WHs, sov 0.0, NPC 0.0, and high sec. (Ok, the last one is a bit true. :P)

Honestly dude - with all honesty you strike me as someone that's defending Scims and TL Scims out of reflex instead of actual facts or engaging your brain and looking at the situation objectively. You are very much reminding me of an Incursion Vindi pilot scared to change.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#82 - 2011-12-16 01:28:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Miss Margin wrote:
Came in expecting a list of lame ship bonuses, ended up reading a 'buff-scimi' thread.


This thread is now about Scimitars and Basilisks. I blame Cambarus. If he'd stuck to his guns over Incursions he might have concluded the argument with me demanding proof of how much benefit a TL Scim provides and him saying "No, too much effort". But the moment he started stepping into a domain I have literally hundreds of hours of in combat PVP experience with....

-Liang

Ed: Also, doesn't a "useless ship bonus" thread scream as a stealth "buff favorite ship X" thread?

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#83 - 2011-12-16 01:34:25 UTC
**** these forums, ate my post

Liang Nuren wrote:
Cap Buddies being required for a Basi is a total myth. Take the fit you have on your Scim and transfer it directly to a Basi. Oh my gosh, oh look, its already better. Yes, you can do a 5/1 and devote only the one slot to capacitor, but you don't HAVE to do that. But, you have the flexibility if you want it. :)


I'm not saying your lying, but clearly I must be doing something wrong.

[Basilisk, fit like scimi]
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II

Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
[empty high slot]
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

[Scimitar, BL Scimitar (Logi V)]
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Invulnerability Field II
Conjunctive Ladar ECCM Scanning Array I
Invulnerability Field II

[empty high slot]
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I


27k vs 29k on Scimi
cap stable only with one invuln off vs. (barely) cap stable on the Scimi
115 sig vs 86 on scimi
1400ish vs 2000 speed?

What's different about your fits?
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#84 - 2011-12-16 02:06:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Cambarus
Liang Nuren wrote:

Are you SERIOUSLY claiming that a XL booster vs L booster is 29% better pulse tank? Man talk about being "intentionally dense".
You ignore the extra mid and better base resists. There is more to a burst tank than the raw HP boost of the shield...

Liang Nuren wrote:

Nah, its worth remembering that nano faggotry isn't all about speed (though it certainly helps). If you aren't nano fit, you have a very similar align time to a Basi and neither the Basi nor the Scim are looking very healthy on speed. This is really an exact variant of what we have both agreed on with regards to EM/Exp drone velocities.
When range is your biggest form of tank, speed matters.

Liang Nuren wrote:

No. Stop being intentionally dense. Yes - combining all three is great for ONE PERSON... but you know whats even better? Bringing more DPS ships. From the perspective of the FLEET it really isn't absolutely ideal.
Ugh. You're still doing it.
Let's say you have 3 ships to contribute to this:
One group brings 1 of each
The other brings a rapier and 2 Basis.
The 2 will be, at the very least, similar, and if you can't think of a reason why more tracking would be favourable to more reps, then that's your problem.

Liang Nuren wrote:

So now we're down to arguments like this:
- The active tank bonus on T2 haulers isn't useless because you can use it to bait pirates in low sec.
- The Prophecy isn't useless because its easier to get fights with it than a Hurricane.
- The DPS bonuses on covops aren't useless because you can LOLSURPRISE! and occasionally kill something.
- The cap use bonus on EAFs isn't useless because LOL you use it every time you use an ewar mod!

-I'm not familiar with the numbers on a t2 haulers tank, but if it's enough to actually survive a couple pirates jumping you then it IS a useful bonus. I would imagine this is not the case though.
-The prophecy can't really kill anything. That argument DOES however work for the cyclone, as it's a ship that can perform at least moderately well, and people assume it's terrible. Getting people to engage your ship in pvp is a VERY good advantage to have.
-Did you watch that video that was linked with the covops frigs owning stuff? I'm not sure about the others, but the only thing stopping the helios (with its 5 freaking mids on a frigate hull) from kicking astounding amounts of ass is the fact that frigate pvp is dominated by pirate faction ships.

Liang Nuren wrote:

Comments:
- You obviously don't run logis in small gangs, because you just don't seem to have the first clue about how the fights go down (low sec or not).
- You don't have experience with active tanked logis, yet you insist on trying to talk about them and tell me how an active tank bonused Scim would have as much tank as an XL Sleip. You then go on to talk about the cap situation on active tanked logis in complete and total ignorance.
- You are trying to invalidate my opinion on Scim vs Basi because of "low sec" by claiming its the only place I fly. Did you know that 2 years ago they put sentry guns at planets and belts in low sec? Also, if you live in low sec, sentry guns follow you around on grid when you enter WHs, sov 0.0, NPC 0.0, and high sec. (Ok, the last one is a bit true. :P)

-Admittedly most of my scimi shenanigans were in highsec, but then I've had little problems hanging out at 60 or so and keeping people alive(sometimesP). For me the scimi's main use has always been for light reps on very small/fast ships. Ones that the basi can't keep up with. And it served that purpose well.

-I actually got the numbers in question by fitting a 2 slot tank on a sleip, and a 3 slot tank on a scim, multiplying the scim's tank by 1.375, and comparing the 2. Like I said, the scim gets an extra mid by not having to field a point, and has higher base resists.

-I vaguely recall you once whining about gate guns in lowsec and how it affects your solo logi. It's also no secret that you prefer lowsec (no moreso than it is that I <3 incursions). This is where this discredit comes from. Perhaps it's a tad overdone, but then your claims of being driven off the field in less than 2 minutes are exaggerated, to say the least.




Honestly dude - with all honesty you strike me as someone that's defending Scims and TL Scims out of reflex instead of actual facts or engaging your brain and looking at the situation objectively. You are very much reminding me of an Incursion Vindi pilot scared to change.
-Liang

This is pretty much a perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black. You want an active tanked bonus because it will benefit YOU and YOUR specific playstyle. (WAHIWANTMYFAVORITESHIPBUFFED) I like the TL bonus the scim gets (though I prefer the onei myself for TLs) and I've used it both in PVE (which is admittedly why I would hate to see it go) and pvp (dreads and 1400mm machs, not sure what others use it for). But again, you're arguing that the bonus is useless, and there are people who can come fourth and provide uses, and your only rebuttal is that there are other ships that do similar things better.
Nor Tzestu
Dos Pollos Hermanos
Ghosts from the Abyss
#85 - 2011-12-16 03:24:36 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Nor Tzestu wrote:

See actually what your missing in the incursion/TL formula is the real use for them. Forget web range. The point is for you to insta gib the sansha at range with Blasters/Pulse. Waiting for them to get into web range is silly. Bringing a dedicated web ship isn't always possible nor is it always preferred (armor fleet says hi.). Why fart around waiting for someone to get this webbed down when you can pop them where they spawn. The Rapier will just add time to your site as it really brings nothing useful to the table. Bring Ony/scimi with bonused TL's and watch sansha go poof at 65km.


Comments:
- I'm reasonably sure I specifically mentioned the claimed Incursion TL use case. I definitely didn't miss it. -_- But on that subject, the only way that I'm going to buy the TL use case in Incursions is if someone can show the practical difference between using them or not. Afterall, Basis do have much better HPS than Scims - if you can afford to drop a logi for another DPS, its inevitable that it'll be better than whatever minor difference a TL on the Scim makes. Don't forget the earlier cited example of people not even noticing when the Scim wasn't using TLs.
- Web range is actually pretty far if you're willing to spend billions like people do with the faction TL Scims.
- Blaster DPS from a Vindicator at 65km is pretty low (even with bonused TLs powering it). Seems like your primary use case revolves around ROF rather than the "DPS" the TL Scim enables. Again, seems there's probably a better way to do it.

-Liang


Nah the point is your advocating bringing a ship who brings nothing to the table for an incursion. Logis you already have, and dropping dps for web's is just silly. At least in an armor fleet where the only thing that really works is a web loki. Lets say you have 10 guys. 3 are in Logi. What do you drop for the webber? DPS? Fat chance. Logi? And risk a DC mid fight? Nah. You bring an Ony or two. Your welcome to check out the Ditanian Fleet channel and see what's actually being used by the top FC's. I learned quite a bit about Logi and their various uses just form hanging out and running incursions and seeing how these things were put to use.
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#86 - 2011-12-16 03:57:27 UTC
Cambarus wrote:

Also this talk of being driven off in under 2 minutes is BS. In lowsec, maybe, but in highsec (and nullsec, depending on the circumstances) it's not hard to make use of that range to keep yourself in the fight. A TD (or hell even a few damps) can go a long way to that effect, but then I would argue that the best way to keep things off the logi is to have some... you know.. tackle. In your earlier example regarding the broadsword, how long would it take one to cover that 70km while being scrammed? Webbed? Both?


Fight

There was a fight in this video where I'm flying a scimitar solo with a small, and typical for us, 0.0 fleet in Geminate. You'll notice that I am forced off the field by drones alone and have to warp off then back from a celestial. I managed to save the curse this time, however, the fight you don't see which happened a small time after this one, but on the same roam, I was forced off the field and the curse was taken out. I was forced off the field by drones and a missile spamming drake. And it was significanly less than two minutes.

Please don't try to talk **** about pvp situations where you obviously have no experience in or try to tell others they don't know what they are talking about in the same situations.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#87 - 2011-12-16 04:31:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Cambarus
ElCholo wrote:

There was a fight in this video where I'm flying a scimitar solo with a small, and typical for us, 0.0 fleet in Geminate. You'll notice that I am forced off the field by drones alone and have to warp off then back from a celestial. I managed to save the curse this time, however, the fight you don't see which happened a small time after this one, but on the same roam, I was forced off the field and the curse was taken out. I was forced off the field by drones and a missile spamming drake. And it was significanly less than two minutes.

Please don't try to talk **** about pvp situations where you obviously have no experience in or try to tell others they don't know what they are talking about in the same situations.
You were outnumbered, had little in the way of tackle and warped the logi in at 50. When I said "and nullsec, depending on the circumstances", that certainly falls under that category. I'll ask you the same question I asked liang: If it's so bad, why do you fly it? If it's not bad, why does it need a buff? Jumping in to an argument and taking the side of a ship being bad, and backing this argument up by showing a fight that you won, using said ship, despite being outnumbered, is rather counter-intuitive, is it not?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#88 - 2011-12-16 04:37:02 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
**** these forums, ate my post


That **** is getting old fast. I really hope they fix it.

Quote:
I'm not saying your lying, but clearly I must be doing something wrong.


I should hope not! I think that the core problem is that you weren't paying attention. Basically, the problem here is that you're buffer tanking your Scim. This is a bad idea when you're the solo logi on the field - low sec, high sec, WH space, 0.0, whatever - buffer tanking means you will be driven off the field in extremely short order and your just reward for such nonsense is to listen to your fleet mates die without you there. You have to remember that active tanking is actually a really good idea as long as the gang sizes remain small.

Its also worth deciding whats more important - defending yourself vs enemies that you know are there vs defending yourself vs enemies that might be there. As a rule, I tend to take an extra tanking or cap slot for the ECCM because the need for capacitor is ALWAYS there. ECM just isn't, and I can count the number of ships I've lost to it on one hand.

Then its time to take a look at whether you want an AB or MWD. The AB gives you better cap and fittings but costs raw speed and the ability to pull range. Perhaps its a quirk of my play style, or the play style of every corp I've ever flown with - but most of the time we are the aggressor. What this means is that 75-80% of the fights I'm in start with my logi in scram range of someone... and the ones where I don't often have fast tackle that double times out after me. Scrams are a fact of life - and in general any mobility is better than no mobility. I go with an AB on my Logis - the MWD has burned me way too many times.

Basically - your entire fitting strategy is wrong for small gang combat. I don't begrudge you it - its the one I started with too and in a lot of ways its the one conventional wisdom tells you is correct. But, I've found that there's a world of difference between what conventional wisdom tells me should work and what actually does.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#89 - 2011-12-16 04:38:04 UTC
Cambarus wrote:
You were outnumbered


So basically you only fight when you out blob the other guy? No ******* wonder this discussion is going nowhere.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#90 - 2011-12-16 04:48:34 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Cambarus wrote:
You were outnumbered


So basically you only fight when you out blob the other guy? No ******* wonder this discussion is going nowhere.

-Liang

I don't recall saying that...

What I DID say was that being outnumbered, WINNING, and then whining that your ship is underpowered is rather...odd. Frankly it's downright impressive that they won that fight, given the gang comp they were up against (a lot of cap-independent DPS on the field), which makes it all the more unusual to come in and set up camp with the my-ship-is-underpowered guy.

I mean really, that post is, in essence, making the claim that the fact that the logi was quickly driven off by FIVE people is reason enough to buff it is absurd. You know what else fares poorly when there are 5 people shooting at it? Damn near everything.

The guy was nitpicking one point in my post, ignoring not only the argument it was supporting but the context of the statement itself (where I specify, in literally the very next sentence, what restrictions are placed on my claim).

So again, I will ask of El:
If the scimi is bad, why are you flying it (and clearly doing well with it no less)? And if it isn't bad, why does it need a buff?
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2011-12-16 05:21:56 UTC
Cambarus wrote:
You were outnumbered, had little in the way of tackle and warped the logi in at 50. When I said "and nullsec, depending on the circumstances", that certainly falls under that category. I'll ask you the same question I asked liang: If it's so bad, why do you fly it? If it's not bad, why does it need a buff? Jumping in to an argument and taking the side of a ship being bad, and backing this argument up by showing a fight that you won, using said ship, despite being outnumbered, is rather counter-intuitive, is it not?


The point of that post wasn't to show that the Scimitar is over or under powered. It is to show you that, at this time, they have a very low survivability when they are targeted in a fight. You claimed that they couldn't be forced off a field. I was disproving your claim. I've never once said that a Scimitar is a bad ship. It is my prefered Logi and I fly it all the time. And the situation you see in that video is the typical situation that I fly the scimi. It wasn't an unusual fight. We are usually outnumbered and outgunned. We just fly smarter. Which isn't hard against renters in Geminate. Also, I'm not saying buff the Scimi. I'm just saying that the TL bonus is useless and you are talking **** about a ship and style of flying you know nothing about. (Or at least from your side of the argument appear to know nothing about.)

I do, however, believe that the tracking bonus is wasted on it. In the five years that I've been flying them, I've never once used the link on it. (This is barring my experiment on my alt flying in an incusrion and having them though still not using them) In fleets where links are used, and these are larger fleets, they are always on unbonused ships that have spare mids. Such as Claymores and such, when I was in Rooks and Kings. The mids on a Scimi are far too valuable to waste them on TLs. They are needs it for cap, tank, and mobility.

Never once have I been in a PvP fleet where I x'd up in a scimi and someone told myself, or anyone else in the logi channels, to fit TLs. ECCMs yes, TLs no.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#92 - 2011-12-16 05:35:43 UTC
Cambarus wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

Are you SERIOUSLY claiming that a XL booster vs L booster is 29% better pulse tank? Man talk about being "intentionally dense".
You ignore the extra mid and better base resists. There is more to a burst tank than the raw HP boost of the shield...


Ok, I'm finally home and have taken a look at EFT to confirm what I was thinking but didn't want to quote out of context. You are so far out of your mind that I don't even know what to say. I'm looking at a 2 slot XL Sleip tank that's dropping 2500 sustained and 6k burst. That's incredibly beyond what I would expect out of a similarly bonused Scimitar.

You utterly and totally and dramatically don't understand the situation. Just stop talking about it. Really, that goes for all PVP based scenarios - I think you've totally and unequivocally stated yourself that the only way you "PVP" is in high sec where you out blob the other side. Roll

Quote:

Ugh. You're still doing it.
Let's say you have 3 ships to contribute to this:
One group brings 1 of each
The other brings a rapier and 2 Basis.
The 2 will be, at the very least, similar, and if you can't think of a reason why more tracking would be favourable to more reps, then that's your problem.


Lets say you have 10 ships.
Team A: 7 ships that deal 500 DPS and 3 Scims (since we're so fond of talking about Vindicators shooting things at 70km). Total Applied DPS: 3500
Team B: Sacrifices 100 DPS off of two ships by trading Scims for Basis, brings an 8th DPS ship. Total Applied DPS: 3800

Quote:

-I'm not familiar with the numbers on a t2 haulers tank, but if it's enough to actually survive a couple pirates jumping you then it IS a useful bonus. I would imagine this is not the case though.
-The prophecy can't really kill anything. That argument DOES however work for the cyclone, as it's a ship that can perform at least moderately well, and people assume it's terrible. Getting people to engage your ship in pvp is a VERY good advantage to have.
-Did you watch that video that was linked with the covops frigs owning stuff? I'm not sure about the others, but the only thing stopping the helios (with its 5 freaking mids on a frigate hull) from kicking astounding amounts of ass is the fact that frigate pvp is dominated by pirate faction ships.


1. You can easily get more tank than a Myrm - both in terms of HPS and in terms of EHP.
2. The Prophecy can kill things, believe it or not. 500 DPS and 62k EHP... surprisingly ganky.
3. LOL. Seriously. ******* LOL.

Quote:

-Admittedly most of my scimi shenanigans were in highsec, but then I've had little problems hanging out at 60 or so and keeping people alive(sometimes). For me the scimi's main use has always been for light reps on very small/fast ships. Ones that the basi can't keep up with. And it served that purpose well.
-I actually got the numbers in question by fitting a 2 slot tank on a sleip, and a 3 slot tank on a scim, multiplying the scim's tank by 1.375, and comparing the 2. Like I said, the scim gets an extra mid by not having to field a point, and has higher base resists.
-I vaguely recall you once whining about gate guns in lowsec and how it affects your solo logi. It's also no secret that you prefer lowsec (no moreso than it is that I <3 incursions). This is where this discredit comes from. Perhaps it's a tad overdone, but then your claims of being driven off the field in less than 2 minutes are exaggerated, to say the least.


1. So you out blob your enemy in high sec. Ooooookkkkkkkkkk....
2. Yes, I just took a look at the numbers (again) myself. You're out of your ******* mind - I have no idea what kind of absolutely **** terrible fittings you're using on the Sleip.
3. Its more than a tad overdone. I've spent a very substantial amount of time in both ships and in actual PVP in the actual situation in question. You're theory crafting and can't even figure out why you'll be driven off the field in short order. Even (Especially?) a solo Drake shooting you will drive you off the field fit that way.


.. cont..

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#93 - 2011-12-16 05:43:47 UTC
Cambarus wrote:

This is pretty much a perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black. You want an active tanked bonus because it will benefit YOU and YOUR specific playstyle. (WAHIWANTMYFAVORITESHIPBUFFED) I like the TL bonus the scim gets (though I prefer the onei myself for TLs) and I've used it both in PVE (which is admittedly why I would hate to see it go) and pvp (dreads and 1400mm machs, not sure what others use it for). But again, you're arguing that the bonus is useless, and there are people who can come fourth and provide uses, and your only rebuttal is that there are other ships that do similar things better.


No, I want an active tank bonus on the Scim because:
- The Scimitar is simply less useful than the Basi in large gangs (Conventional wisdom agrees).
- The Scimitar is simply less useful than the Basi in medium gangs (Conventional wisdom agrees).
- The Scimitar is simply less useful than the Basi as the solo logi (Conventional wisdom disagrees - and is oh so wrong).
- The Link bonus is useless in PVP. If you're using it, you're doing it wrong. Sorry M, its simply true.
- The Link bonus appears to be useless in PVE - claims of its utility appear to be limited to convincing Vindicators to shoot 70km when this is a pants on head way to do things anyway.

So we come to this:
- Ship that's simply outclassed in its own turf by its supposed "gang based" peer.
- Ship that's got a useless bonus.
- Ship that needs survivability in small gangs (not large gangs).

Holy **** - a rep bonus works perfectly to fulfill that criteria!

Roll

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#94 - 2011-12-16 06:07:16 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
But, I've found that there's a world of difference between what conventional wisdom tells me should work and what actually does.

-Liang


OK.

[Basilisk, fit like AST Scimi]
Capacitor Power Relay II
Damage Control II

10MN Afterburner II
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400
Caldari Navy Large Shield Booster
Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I
Invulnerability Field II

Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

[Scimitar, AST Scimi]
Capacitor Power Relay II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Reactor Control Unit II

10MN Afterburner II
Caldari Navy Large Shield Booster
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400
Conjunctive Ladar ECCM Scanning Array I
Invulnerability Field II

Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I


Bearing in mind, these are just two fits I threw together, I'm still not seeing how the Scimi is tangibly worse off than Basi. Sig, speed and cap still favor the Scimi. EHP is less, but resists are more even, with both logis tanking 241 omni-damage (before links, crystals, blue pill, etc.).

(I understand you think ECCM is limited in it's utilty, but I can't remember the last time I was in a small-gang fight that didn't involve ECM drones at least.)

Where is the disconnect here?
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#95 - 2011-12-16 06:26:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Rip Minner
Liang Nuren wrote:
Cambarus wrote:

Could you please point me to an official post/statement that says that the scimi is meant to be used solo? Again, YOU might not like the link bonus, but I (as well as many others I'm sure) love it, and the fact that it isn't good for what YOU do doesn't make it bad.


Could we could start with the fact that the Basilisk and Guardian utterly outclass them if you're working in groups? Or maybe we could look at how the Tracking link bonus eats into the Scimitar's tank? Its a simple fact - the Scim and Ony are meant to be used in smaller gangs without many logistics... as such they need an active tank bonus almost arbitrarily more than they need a virtually useless tracking link bonus.

-Liang

Ed: I don't mean to sound confrontational here, but damn its pretty damn ******** to claim the tracking link bonus is remotely useful in 99.999999% of scenarios. Roll



Well now we could just simply point out here the Nether the Basilisk or Guardian have tanking bonus ether but reather cap transfer one's.

I'm just not drawing the line here from no tanking bonus on cruiser Logi to tanking bonus? I dont personly feel the tracking link logi are crap. There just more PvE focused and the cap transefer is more PvP focused.

So the fact that the Basilisk and Guardian outclass the Scimitar and Oneiros in pvp were Logi are mostly used do's not mean the other two that are loved in PvE needs to get nerfed by giving it a tanking bonus and taking away a bonus that is most liked for High Sec PvE small gangs.

Not every thing in EVE has to be PvP all the time. Just saying.Pirate

Edit: FYI I personly would reather have a logi with me that had cap transfer bonus over one that had tanking bonus any ways. Support ship better support my ars so I can save his end of story.

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.
Hamatitio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#96 - 2011-12-16 06:40:22 UTC
You should make your own thread where you can argue the merits back and forth, and let us enjoy the 15 actual posts about ship bonuses in this thread (mine excluded as well).
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#97 - 2011-12-16 06:43:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Rip Minner
Liang Nuren wrote:
Cambarus wrote:

This is pretty much a perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black. You want an active tanked bonus because it will benefit YOU and YOUR specific playstyle. (WAHIWANTMYFAVORITESHIPBUFFED) I like the TL bonus the scim gets (though I prefer the onei myself for TLs) and I've used it both in PVE (which is admittedly why I would hate to see it go) and pvp (dreads and 1400mm machs, not sure what others use it for). But again, you're arguing that the bonus is useless, and there are people who can come fourth and provide uses, and your only rebuttal is that there are other ships that do similar things better.


No, I want an active tank bonus on the Scim because:
- The Scimitar is simply less useful than the Basi in large PVP gangs (Conventional wisdom agrees).
- The Scimitar is simply less useful than the Basi in medium PVP gangs (Conventional wisdom agrees).
- The Scimitar is simply less useful than the Basi as the solo logi (Conventional wisdom disagrees - and is oh so wrong).
- The Link bonus is useless in PVP. If you're using it, you're doing it wrong. Sorry M, its simply true.
- The Link bonus appears to be useless in PVE - claims of its utility appear to be limited to convincing Vindicators to shoot 70km when this is a pants on head way to do things anyway.

So we come to this:
- Ship that's simply outclassed in its own turf by its supposed "gang based" peer.
- Ship that's got a useless bonus.
- Ship that needs survivability in small gangs (not large gangs).

Holy **** - a rep bonus works perfectly to fulfill that criteria!

Roll

-Liang


I total agree the Link bonus are not as good as Cap transfer for PVP it's more PVE focus. Just becouse you tryed to used it in PvE with fail/rails or PvE fail/blasters do's not mean is bad for PvE. Try using a real weapon system like Projectile's or Lazers before righting it off as total useless.

Edit: O and so you don't come back here after trying it out with Projectiles and Lazers use the right scripit for the right weapon i.e. tracking for beams/Optimal for Auto's. I think you get the ideal here. And I realy hope you dont try saying 45% tracking inc. for Tach's is a crap bonus I mean realy are you realy going to try and claim that one?

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#98 - 2011-12-16 08:52:39 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
...


Uh, no - I think you're looking at things a bit wrong. I'd consider something more like this:

[Basilisk, Solo Basilisk]
Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I
Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I

10MN Afterburner II
Pith B-Type Large Shield Booster
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Cap Recharger II

Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Improved Cloaking Device II

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II


Hornet EC-300 x5

I usually run with Crystals + Tengu, if only because its kinda a PITA to keep track of the blue pill.

Vital stats:
- 923 DPS Omnitank (1336 burst)
- 1602 DPS Tank vs Drake
- 1128 DPS Tank vs Barrage Cane
- 2130 DPS Tank vs PP Cane
- 548 DPS Tank vs EMP Cane
- 1786 DPS Tank vs Brutix
- 692 DPS Tank vs Zealot

You can do something similar with a Scim:
[Scimitar, Lowsec Scimi (Crystal, Pimp)]
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
True Sansha Power Diagnostic System

Y-S8 Hydrocarbon Afterburners
Pith B-Type Large Shield Booster
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Cap Recharger II

Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II

Vital stats:
- 1296 DPS Omnitank (1872 burst)
- 984 DPS Tank vs Drake
- 1039 DPS Tank vs Barrage Cane
- 1308 DPS Tank vs PP Cane
- 1722 DPS Tank vs EMP Cane
- 1097 DPS Tank vs Brutix
- 1814 DPS Tank vs Zealot

Just to put the numbers side by side:
- Drake: 1602 vs 984. Winner: Basilisk
- Barrage Cane: 1128 vs 1039. Winner: Basilisk
- PP Cane: 2130 vs 1308. Winner: Basilisk
- EMP Cane: 548 vs 1722. Winner: Scimitar
- Brutix: 1786 vs 1097. Winner: Basilisk
- Zealot: 692 vs 1814. Winner: Scimitar
- Speed: 743 m/s vs 972 m/s. Winner: Scimitar
- HPS: 592 vs 474. Winner: Basilisk
- Ability to get fights. Cloak vs No Cloak. Winner: Basilisk

The only common case where the Basilisk doesn't just flat kick the **** out of the Scim is the EMP Cane. Lets just be real - this is a very real weakness - but its just not as common as it really sounds like it might be. I'm not trying to say it doesn't exist - hell when I came back to Eve, a Basi fit this way was my only asset in the entire game. I ended up losing it to a EMP Cane + Cynabal while solo running it up a pipe in low sec. I even blogged about it.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#99 - 2011-12-16 09:16:04 UTC
Only thermal damage drone bonus on the Helios ( why so racest gallente? warriors to primitive?)



Well IMHO the bonus to tracking enhancers on scim's&orn's isn't bad...tracking enhancers are bad (if they efected multipl targets or gave a tangible bonus's to dam or rate of fire every thing would be fine)


I fly ewar friggs (sentinel and kitsune) and like the cap to run my mods.

Its sad that to keep lazors in check above 5 guns they have to make them require a cap reduction, and thus wast a ability slot on amarr ships.


4th bonus on AF's...that's tricky as giving any thing to similar to another T2 frigg type will make the AF better than the other frigg.

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#100 - 2011-12-16 09:31:28 UTC
ElCholo wrote:

The point of that post wasn't to show that the Scimitar is over or under powered. It is to show you that, at this time, they have a very low survivability when they are targeted in a fight. You claimed that they couldn't be forced off a field.
No I didn't. Liang made a claim and made it sound like the norm, and I called BS on it. Claiming that the bonus is wasted due to a lack of mids is reasonable, but liang had explicitly started off by mentioning the " 'solo' logisticS" Oneiros is capable of making good use of them if the setup benefits from TLs. Also, if the scimi is not underpowered, then it doesn't need the proposed boost to make it better at what it does.


Liang Nuren wrote:

Ok, I'm finally home and have taken a look at EFT to confirm what I was thinking but didn't want to quote out of context. You are so far out of your mind that I don't even know what to say. I'm looking at a 2 slot XL Sleip tank that's dropping 2500 sustained and 6k burst. That's incredibly beyond what I would expect out of a similarly bonused Scimitar.
I just slapped an XL booster and a t2 invuln on a sleip, then tried the same thing but with an added invuln on the logi (and a smaller booster). Not sure how that would translate to your fit (which is undoubtedly more expensive) but go give that a try.

Liang Nuren wrote:

You utterly and totally and dramatically don't understand the situation. Just stop talking about it. Really, that goes for all PVP based scenarios - I think you've totally and unequivocally stated yourself that the only way you "PVP" is in high sec where you out blob the other side. Roll
Cripes your reading comprehension is bad. I don't blob, in fact I'm not even fond of even fights, I prefer to fight at least slightly outnumbered. HOWEVER, that is a HORRIBLE way to balance a ship, from that perspective. "This ship is underpowered because I was only just barely able to win an outnumbered fight with it" is an absurd argument to make, regardless of skill level or experience.

Liang Nuren wrote:

Lets say you have 10 ships.
Team A: 7 ships that deal 500 DPS and 3 Scims (since we're so fond of talking about Vindicators shooting things at 70km). Total Applied DPS: 3500
Team B: Sacrifices 100 DPS off of two ships by trading Scims for Basis, brings an 8th DPS ship. Total Applied DPS: 3800


1. You can easily get more tank than a Myrm - both in terms of HPS and in terms of EHP.
2. The Prophecy can kill things, believe it or not. 500 DPS and 62k EHP... surprisingly ganky.
3. LOL. Seriously. ******* LOL.

You're considering the advantages of a tracking linked fleet over one that has none, and using same size ships in the supposed engagement. Lol Come on, at least TRY to view it from the other side.
1-I figured as much
2-If the proph is as good as you say, why would it need to be changed?
3-For someone who claims that conventional wisdom is often wrong, you seem to GROSSLY underestimate a ship capable of 150 dps with 5 mids on a frig, based on what conventional wisdom says its good at. I would suggest actually flying the ship in question before assuming that it's ****.

Liang Nuren wrote:

1. So you out blob your enemy in high sec. Ooooookkkkkkkkkk....
2. Yes, I just took a look at the numbers (again) myself. You're out of your ******* mind - I have no idea what kind of absolutely **** terrible fittings you're using on the Sleip.
3. Its more than a tad overdone. I've spent a very substantial amount of time in both ships and in actual PVP in the actual situation in question. You're theory crafting and can't even figure out why you'll be driven off the field in short order. Even (Especially?) a solo Drake shooting you will drive you off the field fit that way.
1-Again, I NEVER said that.
2-Those 2 mods you fit on the sleip, fit on the scim but with a LSB equivalent and an extra invuln.
3-You're doing the EXACT SAME THING. And to top it off, now you're doing it based on a statement I never made.

Don't have time to address the other post atm, I'll deal with it when I get back home.