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The Mining Frigate Tree Serves No Functional Purpose.
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Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#101 - 2016-01-20 11:43:23 UTC
Leonerd Dice wrote:

then a new ship is needed if we just cant break away from this rule. we need a ship that can harvest gas in a reasonable quantity. with a probe launcher and a cloak. like i just said ... i dont want to ruin your life with this guys, i know youve been here everday for years. but i really think the prospect needs an extra high slot. and an increase in ore yield.


you are not ruining anybody's day here let alone life, lol, don't be conceited. we are just concerned for the other newbros who might read this thread and get the wrong ideas as well.

im not gonna comment on what the prospect's "inadequacies" are, i don't even know how to mine ice and why you require those capabilites in a small frigate. im just here to comment about your wrong views on ship progressions.

Just Add Water
Leonerd Dice
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#102 - 2016-01-20 11:54:08 UTC
Nat Silverguard wrote:
Leonerd Dice wrote:

then a new ship is needed if we just cant break away from this rule. we need a ship that can harvest gas in a reasonable quantity. with a probe launcher and a cloak. like i just said ... i dont want to ruin your life with this guys, i know youve been here everday for years. but i really think the prospect needs an extra high slot. and an increase in ore yield.


you are not ruining anybody's day here let alone life, lol, don't be conceited. we are just concerned for the other newbros who might read this thread and get the wrong ideas as well.

im not gonna comment on what the prospect's "inadequacies" are, i don't even know how to mine ice and why you require those capabilites in a small frigate. im just here to comment about your wrong views on ship progressions.


are we cool? can i a get sick new venture now plox? can i have your wish?
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2016-01-20 11:56:17 UTC
Leonerd Dice wrote:
Nat Silverguard wrote:
Leonerd Dice wrote:

how are you struggling to get your mind outta the box bro. this tech ii isnt gonna be a speciialization. it isnt a rule or something.


no rule is needed, only common sense, and this is common knowledge so you really can't argue about this.

you can even see it in ISIS in-game, tech 2s are specializations and the closest that can be considered an upgrade is the next "bigger" hull. in this case from a venture, a mining frigate to a procurer, a mining barge.

so the progression would be for mining vessels is frigate -> barge. while in pvp ships, from smallest to biggest: frigate -> destroyers -> cruisers -> battlecruisers -> battleship -> dreadnought/carrier -> titan/supercarrier.


then a new ship is needed if we just cant break away from this rule. we need a ship that can harvest gas in a reasonable quantity. with a probe launcher and a cloak. like i just said ... i dont want to ruin your life with this guys, i know youve been here everday for years. but i really think the prospect needs an extra high slot. and an increase in ore yield.

how about this no new high slot. but an upgrade in ore yield. and the ship comes with a covert ops cloak built into it. so we dont need to give the ship a new high slot.


Why? Justify this need in the game, and how it improves the game without negating the risk inherent in the tasks the Prospect was designed and specialised for. You can't just say, "we need x", you need to qualify it: "we need x because..."

If it's just because you think it's needed, then that's not good enough. You don't need a probe launcher on a prospect, because if you can fly a prospect, you can probably fly a covops or its t1 counterpart. Yes, reshipping is a thing you have to do, ESPECIALLY when you're in a ship specialised for gas mining and you want to probe down a wormhole or the gas site itself. That requires reshipping, just like being in a Taranis, and encountering a wartarget in an Enyo, probably requires reshipping. There is no such thing as a ship that can do everything, and there never should be. You need to clue yourself into an understanding of this, or justify why you think a new ship or a new high slot is required. Because so far, you've done neither.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Leonerd Dice
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#104 - 2016-01-20 12:03:06 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Leonerd Dice wrote:
Nat Silverguard wrote:
Leonerd Dice wrote:

how are you struggling to get your mind outta the box bro. this tech ii isnt gonna be a speciialization. it isnt a rule or something.


no rule is needed, only common sense, and this is common knowledge so you really can't argue about this.

you can even see it in ISIS in-game, tech 2s are specializations and the closest that can be considered an upgrade is the next "bigger" hull. in this case from a venture, a mining frigate to a procurer, a mining barge.

so the progression would be for mining vessels is frigate -> barge. while in pvp ships, from smallest to biggest: frigate -> destroyers -> cruisers -> battlecruisers -> battleship -> dreadnought/carrier -> titan/supercarrier.


then a new ship is needed if we just cant break away from this rule. we need a ship that can harvest gas in a reasonable quantity. with a probe launcher and a cloak. like i just said ... i dont want to ruin your life with this guys, i know youve been here everday for years. but i really think the prospect needs an extra high slot. and an increase in ore yield.

how about this no new high slot. but an upgrade in ore yield. and the ship comes with a covert ops cloak built into it. so we dont need to give the ship a new high slot.


Why? Justify this need in the game, and how it improves the game without negating the risk inherent in the tasks the Prospect was designed and specialised for. You can't just say, "we need x", you need to qualify it: "we need x because..."

If it's just because you think it's needed, then that's not good enough. You don't need a probe launcher on a prospect, because if you can fly a prospect, you can probably fly a covops or its t1 counterpart. Yes, reshipping is a thing you have to do, ESPECIALLY when you're in a ship specialised for gas mining and you want to probe down a wormhole or the gas site itself. That requires reshipping, just like being in a Taranis, and encountering a wartarget in an Enyo, probably requires reshipping. There is no such thing as a ship that can do everything, and there never should be. You need to clue yourself into an understanding of this, or justify why you think a new ship or a new high slot is required. Because so far, you've done neither.


I mean i just legit can't see why this is bugging you guys. it's not a big deal. it seems reasonable to me. The ship isn't fulfilling it's purpose well.

When you're out and about in your pvp ship. and some bigger ship you cant handle comes along. well then ya you're gonna have to re fit or gtfo. if a smaller ships comes along that you can handle then youre good to go. (sorry i am a newb, lets see if you take too much liberty with this one)

with the prospect youre refitting as a natural part of its basic casual purpose. everytime you go out to use it. there's no beef about it. its silly.

not to mention like forget going into dangerous space to get rare ore. because mining veld ina barge is 3-4x more profitable then even bothering to venture out into space to look for this stuff. forget mining veld in this thing, it takes 5 days to get into a barge.

now im aware that there are trade offs but thats just way too high. thats unreasonable it needs a buff in yield. not to mention it needs to cloak. im not asking that this thing mines ice, and transfer minerals and planetary commodities. i just want a high slot and a better ore yield. like...
Asinae Antaelis
#105 - 2016-01-20 12:31:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Asinae Antaelis
I do agree that if you have to refit to use a ship in its primary role then there is a design problem ...
Either
- transform a turret into a high utility while doubling the efficiency of the remaining turret;
- or change the covops trait into a scanning trait ;
- or delete the prospect and give a gaz bonus to the endurance...
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#106 - 2016-01-20 12:47:35 UTC
Leonerd Dice wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Leonerd Dice wrote:
Nat Silverguard wrote:
Leonerd Dice wrote:

how are you struggling to get your mind outta the box bro. this tech ii isnt gonna be a speciialization. it isnt a rule or something.


no rule is needed, only common sense, and this is common knowledge so you really can't argue about this.

you can even see it in ISIS in-game, tech 2s are specializations and the closest that can be considered an upgrade is the next "bigger" hull. in this case from a venture, a mining frigate to a procurer, a mining barge.

so the progression would be for mining vessels is frigate -> barge. while in pvp ships, from smallest to biggest: frigate -> destroyers -> cruisers -> battlecruisers -> battleship -> dreadnought/carrier -> titan/supercarrier.


then a new ship is needed if we just cant break away from this rule. we need a ship that can harvest gas in a reasonable quantity. with a probe launcher and a cloak. like i just said ... i dont want to ruin your life with this guys, i know youve been here everday for years. but i really think the prospect needs an extra high slot. and an increase in ore yield.

how about this no new high slot. but an upgrade in ore yield. and the ship comes with a covert ops cloak built into it. so we dont need to give the ship a new high slot.


Why? Justify this need in the game, and how it improves the game without negating the risk inherent in the tasks the Prospect was designed and specialised for. You can't just say, "we need x", you need to qualify it: "we need x because..."

If it's just because you think it's needed, then that's not good enough. You don't need a probe launcher on a prospect, because if you can fly a prospect, you can probably fly a covops or its t1 counterpart. Yes, reshipping is a thing you have to do, ESPECIALLY when you're in a ship specialised for gas mining and you want to probe down a wormhole or the gas site itself. That requires reshipping, just like being in a Taranis, and encountering a wartarget in an Enyo, probably requires reshipping. There is no such thing as a ship that can do everything, and there never should be. You need to clue yourself into an understanding of this, or justify why you think a new ship or a new high slot is required. Because so far, you've done neither.


I mean i just legit can't see why this is bugging you guys. it's not a big deal. it seems reasonable to me. The ship isn't fulfilling it's purpose well.


But it is, it fulfills its specialisation just fine. If you're using it to probe, then you're using it for something it's not specialised for. That's on you, not the ship, and entirely your own problem, not the ship's problem, that you find refitting it too inconvenient for you. Again, there is no such thing as a ship that does everything, especially t2s, which are designed to be very good at ONE thing, and **** poor at everything else. I don't go mining in an Enyo or a Helios, I don't know why you'd do your probing in a Prospect. That's entirely on you.

You suggestion that the game needs a new ship or the prospect needs to be 'better' doesn't bug me. Your arrogance does. Your assumption that you know enough about the game and the overarching effects such changes would have on the game to think this is a good idea, and to be confused about why people more experienced than you are telling you it's not.

You keep saying 'it needs this, it needs that', but again, you aren't explaining why. I asked you to justify the changes, not to repeat them, and you have again failed to do so. WHY DOES THIS SHIP need the changes you're suggesting?

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2016-01-20 12:48:56 UTC
Asinae Antaelis wrote:
I do agree that if you have to refit to use a ship in its primary role then there is a design problem ...
Either
- transform a turret into a high utility while doubling the efficiency of the remaining turret;
- or change the covops trait into a scanning trait ;
- or delete the prospect and give a gaz bonus to the endurance...


Its primary role is mining. There is no refitting needed to go mining. If you're doing ore and gas mining, have two ships, one for each.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Leonerd Dice
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#108 - 2016-01-20 12:59:46 UTC


You suggestion that the game needs a new ship or the prospect needs to be 'better' doesn't bug me. Your arrogance does. Your assumption that you know enough about the game and the overarching effects such changes would have on the game to think this is a good idea, and to be confused about why people more experienced than you are telling you it's not.

You keep saying 'it needs this, it needs that', but again, you aren't explaining why. I asked you to justify the changes, not to repeat them, and you have again failed to do so. [i]WHY DOES THIS SHIP need the changes you're suggesting

its got pretty good sensor strength i think ccp is telling you to scan with it.
Leonerd Dice
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#109 - 2016-01-20 13:08:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Leonerd Dice
double post.
Leonerd Dice
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#110 - 2016-01-20 13:25:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Leonerd Dice
i do want to point out that i know what everyone's saying here. but im just trying to make minimum wage here in eve. sacrificing a turret you cut my profits literally in half.

Asinae Antaelis wrote:
I do agree that if you have to refit to use a ship in its primary role then there is a design problem ...
Either
- transform a turret into a high utility while doubling the efficiency of the remaining turret;
- or change the covops trait into a scanning trait ;
- or delete the prospect and give a gaz bonus to the endurance...


agreed
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#111 - 2016-01-20 13:46:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Leonerd Dice wrote:

its got pretty good sensor strength i think ccp is telling you to scan with it.

The Prospect has pathetic sensor strength for a T2 ship. This probably comes naturally from the Venture having one of the worst sensor strengths in the entire game.
Also, sensor strength has nothing to do with your ability to scan (only with your ability to be scanned).
Leonerd Dice
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#112 - 2016-01-20 14:11:52 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Leonerd Dice wrote:

its got pretty good sensor strength i think ccp is telling you to scan with it.

The Prospect has pathetic sensor strength for a T2 ship. This probably comes naturally from the Venture having one of the worst sensor strengths in the entire game.
Also, sensor strength has nothing to do with your ability to scan (only with your ability to be scanned).


youre right it was a mistake for me to look at the attributes i dont care about yet. ill stick with my first argument. and thats that you need to scan for anomalies and gas sites obviously to be able to gas mine. so theres where ccp wants you to fit a scanner onto it.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#113 - 2016-01-20 14:15:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Leonerd Dice wrote:


You suggestion that the game needs a new ship or the prospect needs to be 'better' doesn't bug me. Your arrogance does. Your assumption that you know enough about the game and the overarching effects such changes would have on the game to think this is a good idea, and to be confused about why people more experienced than you are telling you it's not.

You keep saying 'it needs this, it needs that', but again, you aren't explaining why. I asked you to justify the changes, not to repeat them, and you have again failed to do so. [i]WHY DOES THIS SHIP need the changes you're suggesting

its got pretty good sensor strength i think ccp is telling you to scan with it.


Sensor strength is related to locking speed, not probing ability. Dude, this assumption you just made demonstrates your lack of understanding of the mechanics of EVE Online. You cannot expect us to take your suggestions for changes seriously if you cannot even demonstrate a basic understanding of mechanics.

You want to know what a ship is specialised for? Read its bonuses.

Interceptors get bonuses for scrams and disruptors - specialised for tackling.

Recons get bonuses for EWAR - specialised for EWAR

Assault frigates get bonuses for tanking and weapons - specialised for mainline combat.

Prospect gets bonuses for gas and ore mining, as well as cloak and the ability to fit covert cyno - specialised for deep space mining, perhaps even in hostile nul and lowsec territory and definitely wormholes.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#114 - 2016-01-20 14:18:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Leonerd Dice wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Leonerd Dice wrote:

its got pretty good sensor strength i think ccp is telling you to scan with it.

The Prospect has pathetic sensor strength for a T2 ship. This probably comes naturally from the Venture having one of the worst sensor strengths in the entire game.
Also, sensor strength has nothing to do with your ability to scan (only with your ability to be scanned).


youre right it was a mistake for me to look at the attributes i dont care about yet. ill stick with my first argument. and thats that you need to scan for anomalies and gas sites obviously to be able to gas mine. so theres where ccp wants you to fit a scanner onto it.


You need to scan for DED sites too. While you can put a probe launcher on a combat ship, it gimps its combat ability, so you're better off doing the probing with a covops and reshipping to a dedicated combat ship. This is a non-argument, because the means to reship to a vessel specialised for probing are available to you.

There is nothing on the Prospect, nothing about it, that suggests CCP intended it for probe launchers.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#115 - 2016-01-20 14:19:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Leonerd Dice wrote:
youre right it was a mistake for me to look at the attributes i dont care about yet. ill stick with my first argument. and thats that you need to scan for anomalies and gas sites obviously to be able to gas mine. so theres where ccp wants you to fit a scanner onto it.

You need a probe launcher to find any of the exploration content, to say nothing of w-space. And yet, the vast majority of the exploration content is designed for ships that are not intended to be scan ships.

Instead, they expect you to use a scan ship to find a site, and then warp there in a suitable ship, or just give up on some of your precious fitting space to do both. Or, in a pinch, you can bring some scanning equipment along in your mobile depot…
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#116 - 2016-01-20 14:21:58 UTC
Tippia wrote:

Also, sensor strength has nothing to do with your ability to scan (only with your ability to be scanned).


Gotta pull you up on that - that's not sensor strength, that's sig radius. The smaller your sig, the harder you are to scan. Sensor strength doesn't contribute to how easily you can be scanned.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#117 - 2016-01-20 14:23:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Remiel Pollard wrote:

Gotta pull you up on that - that's not sensor strength, that's sig radius. The smaller your sig, the harder you are to scan. Sensor strength doesn't contribute to how easily you can be scanned.

Did they change that?
It used to be that your signal strength was Signature Radius / Sensor Strength, later capped to remove the unprobable T3s.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#118 - 2016-01-20 14:23:59 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Tippia wrote:

Also, sensor strength has nothing to do with your ability to scan (only with your ability to be scanned).


Gotta pull you up on that - that's not sensor strength, that's sig radius. The smaller your sig, the harder you are to scan. Sensor strength doesn't contribute to how easily you can be scanned.


No, Tippia's right. So are you about the sig, but sensor strength also plays a role. The old unscannable Tengus were basically built by loading up on ECCM.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#119 - 2016-01-20 14:29:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Tippia wrote:

Also, sensor strength has nothing to do with your ability to scan (only with your ability to be scanned).


Gotta pull you up on that - that's not sensor strength, that's sig radius. The smaller your sig, the harder you are to scan. Sensor strength doesn't contribute to how easily you can be scanned.


No, Tippia's right. So are you about the sig, but sensor strength also plays a role. The old unscannable Tengus were basically built by loading up on ECCM.


I don't understand, explain to me exactly how sensor strength plays a role in being scannable, or link me to something that does please. I've been doing some stuff wrong if this is the case.

EDIT: never mind, I found this. "Target size is calculated as sig radius / sensor strength. The smaller your ship's target size, the harder it is for people to probe you down." I always thought it was just sig radius. Oh well, I stand corrected.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#120 - 2016-01-20 14:34:31 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Tippia wrote:

Also, sensor strength has nothing to do with your ability to scan (only with your ability to be scanned).


Gotta pull you up on that - that's not sensor strength, that's sig radius. The smaller your sig, the harder you are to scan. Sensor strength doesn't contribute to how easily you can be scanned.


No, Tippia's right. So are you about the sig, but sensor strength also plays a role. The old unscannable Tengus were basically built by loading up on ECCM.


I don't understand, explain to me exactly how sensor strength plays a role in being scannable, or link me to something that does please. I've been doing some stuff wrong if this is the case.


The scan probe signature size of a ship is something like its Sig/Sensor/100. I've never been a big OGB user so I'm hardly an expert, I just know that jacking up the sensor strength used to be able to make a T3 literally unscannable. They capped that and the best you can do now is getting them hard enough to require max skills and a virtue set, I believe.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/