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Dev blog: Skill trading in New Eden

First post First post First post
Author
Cien Banchiere
Extrinsic Arcadia Distribution
#561 - 2016-01-19 15:08:25 UTC
OK, so I've seen the posts now saying there is some issues when you buy a toon on the Bizaar. Last night, we had a guy that wanted to be recruited in our lounge that bought a 18mil Sp carrier toon for an unreasonable amount of money. He can't do anything with it. He's screwed and he admitted it. I don't feel bad for him. He made the choice. He was the one who didn't read the fine print when he bought the toon.

Good. I don't need that in my corp. Part of EVE is consquence and getting good at the game. If you're that dense that you can't buy a toon right why would I want a player who is new or has a young toon that is fixing his/her skillpoints? He still has months to go, but he's clearly not suited for what we do an a corp or alliance. Now, with this new... system... EVE can be over run by new/returning people who don't know what they are doing, dying because they don't un or getting rejected like that dude, and then quitting. Why? Because it's still not going to fix the skillpoint v skillset issue.
Vasama
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#562 - 2016-01-19 15:09:51 UTC
Crazy Kitten wrote:


please add 2 new stats to a character sheet (similar to medals optionally public with default to being so):
# sp injected
# sp extracted




This is a splendid idea. Except it should be public like employment history.

Vasama
cpt Varox
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#563 - 2016-01-19 15:18:26 UTC
CCP, this sucks !!!! Yeah okay, it's a good ideea. Especially for old players that got atached to the game. It's a good oportunity to resculpture their characters after understanding the game better and knowing what they wanna do. But taking away 500k SP and giving only 150k back sucks. At least give half or 200k back . It's like giving a man in the desert a glass of water and tell him he can dring only half !!
Zeddrick Anthar
Golden Orb Ate My Grandma
#564 - 2016-01-19 15:27:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Zeddrick Anthar
Carper wrote:
I have 257 milliion skillpoints. I have played EVE for a very long time.

The only remaining sense of achievement i got from the game was the training.

I can live with having this feature for low SP characters to help them, but 100+ million SP characters really don't need anymore assistance.

What possible incentive to continue to keep an account open for training is there - when some rich idiot can come along and in a single day create a 500 million SP monster?

For me, that rips the heart out of the game. Guts it.

And for those that say there won't be any Jita riots over this - they are right. But that's only because when things die they die 'Not with a bang, but a whimper'.


I know what you mean, I think a lot of people value the fact that their high SP character took them a long time to get where it is. In the original draft of this a new player got 500K sp and a high-sp toon got 50, meaning the high SP players at least had to pay 10x as much ISK/sp. Now with 150K sp they're only paying about 3.3 times as much ISK per skillpoint as a brand new player. But the spending power of a 10 year old toon is probably huge they should be able to earn a lot more ISK/hour if they don't have enough passive income streams by then to not need to grind any more.

If this feature is attractive enough for new players to buy a meaningful amount of skills then the rich players in the game will pretty much be able to have every skill going.

That's probably not a bad thing in the short term -- remember how removing the learning skills got a bunch of people to resub because they had millions of spare SP to spend. I imagine loads of people will come back, insta-train something new and have fun or just plex their accounts by pulling out that 'mining 5' skill they were so embarrassed about having. In the long term though I think the game will lose that 'must keep training skills' draw it has now and people will actually unsub more often instead of just plexing/subbing to train and play once a month.
Dosperado
State War Academy
Caldari State
#565 - 2016-01-19 15:32:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Dosperado
Carper wrote:
I have 257 milliion skillpoints. I have played EVE for a very long time.

The only remaining sense of achievement i got from the game was the training.

I can live with having this feature for low SP characters to help them, but 100+ million SP characters really don't need anymore assistance.

What possible incentive to continue to keep an account open for training is there - when some rich idiot can come along and in a single day create a 500 million SP monster?

For me, that rips the heart out of the game. Guts it.

And for those that say there won't be any Jita riots over this - they are right. But that's only because when things die they die 'Not with a bang, but a whimper'.


As I said, a punch in the face for all veteran players...but sadly we are too few to be important to CCP. At least cut this stupid system at 80 million SP. You shouldn't be able to buy SP if you' character has 80+ mil SP. That makes no sense at all and shows again that CCP only wants to extract the last $$$ out of a dying game.

Be prepared to see this character in a short amount of time in the character bazaaar EvilEvilEvil

EVE Veteran

Zeddrick Anthar
Golden Orb Ate My Grandma
#566 - 2016-01-19 15:43:13 UTC
Dosperado wrote:

Be prepared to see this character in a short amount of time in the character bazaaar EvilEvilEvil


I think you'll probably make more if you sell the skillpoints instead ;)
MidnightWyvern
The Bosena Accords
Round Table Assembly
#567 - 2016-01-19 15:48:32 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
CCP Phantom wrote:
A couple months ago we introduced the idea of Skill Trading which resulted in lots of valuable feedback. After going through a lot of feedback while refining the design, we would like to be add Skill Trading to New Eden and it is currently scheduled for our February release.

Please read the latest blog from CCP Rise and Team Size Matters Skill trading in New Eden for all the details.

We welcome all your feedback, thank you!


You have had a lot of feedback, mostly negative and have chosen to ignore it, so why are you requesting more feedback?

The negative feedback came from the usual few hundred angry neckbeards that scream the walls down whenever they change anything at all.

Rattati Senpai noticed us! See you in the next FPS!

Alts: Saray Wyvern, Mobius Wyvern (Dust 514)

ViolentDesire
78934223
#568 - 2016-01-19 15:52:17 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
CCP Phantom wrote:
A couple months ago we introduced the idea of Skill Trading which resulted in lots of valuable feedback. After going through a lot of feedback while refining the design, we would like to be add Skill Trading to New Eden and it is currently scheduled for our February release.

Please read the latest blog from CCP Rise and Team Size Matters Skill trading in New Eden for all the details.

We welcome all your feedback, thank you!


You have had a lot of feedback, mostly negative and have chosen to ignore it, so why are you requesting more feedback?


That is indeed the question. It is reasonable to assume that so far their arguments have been so weak they see no need to even state them.
ViolentDesire
78934223
#569 - 2016-01-19 15:56:34 UTC
Dosperado wrote:
Carper wrote:
I have 257 milliion skillpoints. I have played EVE for a very long time.

The only remaining sense of achievement i got from the game was the training.

I can live with having this feature for low SP characters to help them, but 100+ million SP characters really don't need anymore assistance.

What possible incentive to continue to keep an account open for training is there - when some rich idiot can come along and in a single day create a 500 million SP monster?

For me, that rips the heart out of the game. Guts it.

And for those that say there won't be any Jita riots over this - they are right. But that's only because when things die they die 'Not with a bang, but a whimper'.


As I said, a punch in the face for all veteran players...but sadly we are too few to be important to CCP. At least cut this stupid system at 80 million SP. You shouldn't be able to buy SP if you' character has 80+ mil SP. That makes no sense at all and shows again that CCP only wants to extract the last $$$ out of a dying game.

Be prepared to see this character in a short amount of time in the character bazaaar EvilEvilEvil


What is the point of even having the skill system at all with this change? It seems to be "level 5 or nothing". Why would anybody who is competitive have anything less? What is the benefit to players compared to say no skills at all? It seems to be mostly a way for CCP to extract money while players race to the top.
Josef Djugashvilis
#570 - 2016-01-19 16:12:32 UTC
One of the arguments in favour of, 'skill points for cash' seems to be that some veterans feel that they have some 'useless' skill points they want to sell, or move to an alt.

I have some useless skill points - mining for example, but I made the decision to train them and I should have to, and do live with those choices.

It is all part of the 'Eve is tough and choices have consequences' mantra that has been a part of Eve since well before I started in early 2007.

It would be interesting to see if any of the current CSM membership have supported this, and why.

And where this years CSM candidates stand on this issue.

This is not a signature.

Zeddrick Anthar
Golden Orb Ate My Grandma
#571 - 2016-01-19 16:19:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Zeddrick Anthar
ViolentDesire wrote:

What is the point of even having the skill system at all with this change? It seems to be "level 5 or nothing". Why would anybody who is competitive have anything less? What is the benefit to players compared to say no skills at all? It seems to be mostly a way for CCP to extract money while players race to the top.


That depends on the price of skills. Say it costs 2500 ISK per skillpoint to buy these (making a skillpack about the price of a PLEX). Then 10 million SP costs 30 billion ISK from 0 and more if you already have SPs, which is non-trivial. Being competitive at cruiser size ships with some options (i.e. not just one race/hull, not just one weapon system, etc) would probably need 15-20 million SP so that's quite a lot of ISK to either grind or buy.

What most people here have wrong, though, is that this is nothing at all like the character bazaar. With the bazaar I could only buy a whole new character. I had to get all the money, then buy the toon and put up with however it was configured skill wise. Then to buy more skills I need to have multiple toons or replace my toon again.

With the skillpoint trading system I can incrementally improve my character a little at a time and actually *use* those improvements while saving. Say it takes 6 months to get that 30 bil, I can be using half of the skills after 3 months by buying the first half of the skillpacks. Since there will be an isk/SP value on these things and there is already an isk/hour value on a lot of stuff then there will effectively be a SP/hour value on activities like incursion running, missions, ratting, etc.

So what this change really does is allow people to gain skills by playing the game instead of training them passively. OK so it's a bit lumpy -- you can't just buy gunnery V without buying other SPs along with it but it's the same thing. Want to train for today's FOTM setup? How many SP do you need? How many SP/hour to you make? Go grind those SPs. I think a lot of people probably *want* a change like that, particularly new players, but some of us probably liked the old system because we wouldn't get beaten so often by someone who just spent a lot longer grinding than we did ...
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#572 - 2016-01-19 16:29:43 UTC
Clearly someone didn't get the memo but it still stand that pay to win is what will make EVE kaputt.

Someone really does want to push it above the pain threshold.

Congratulations!

You did it you finally dug your own grave. Oh well, after hubris comes the downfall and don't act surprised that you didn't see that coming.

You want to get more players by upsetting the ones that pay your bills. Did you consider how to keep them when your core base is gone and the only thing that would keep someone here long enough to make it worthwhile stops after a week or two?

I warned you. You did not listen.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

ViolentDesire
78934223
#573 - 2016-01-19 16:31:52 UTC
Zeddrick Anthar wrote:
ViolentDesire wrote:

What is the point of even having the skill system at all with this change? It seems to be "level 5 or nothing". Why would anybody who is competitive have anything less? What is the benefit to players compared to say no skills at all? It seems to be mostly a way for CCP to extract money while players race to the top.


That depends on the price of skills. Say it costs 2500 ISK per skillpoint to buy these (making a skillpack about the price of a PLEX). Then 10 million SP costs 30 billion ISK from 0 and more if you already have SPs, which is non-trivial. Being competitive at cruiser size ships with some options (i.e. not just one race/hull, not just one weapon system, etc) would probably need 15-20 million SP so that's quite a lot of ISK to either grind or buy.


A titan is expensive. Therefore there will not be many titans.

Useful Alt
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#574 - 2016-01-19 16:47:16 UTC
WTB 500b worth of SP

to be sold for 1T

rinse and repeat


this idea is bad, let see who will control the SP market

very nice cash cow btw but still very bad decision
Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#575 - 2016-01-19 16:58:06 UTC
Julien Brellier wrote:
Pay-to-win micro transactions creeping into Eve.

A sad day.


The Character Bizarre was already pay to win. At least this way RMT becomes more difficult

So I approve!

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships

Zeddrick Anthar
Golden Orb Ate My Grandma
#576 - 2016-01-19 17:01:21 UTC
Useful Alt wrote:
WTB 500b worth of SP

to be sold for 1T

rinse and repeat


this idea is bad, let see who will control the SP market

very nice cash cow btw but still very bad decision


Sounds too good to be true doesn't it? Well the problem is that trading, etc just generates more demand, which generates more supply as people plex an alt, train, rip, sell, repeat. Provided the skillpacket price stays well above the cost of training skills (1 plex per month plus the extractor things) people can keep doing more alts and supplying more and more SPs. Supply is effectively infinite, I can always make more alts if they can pay for their own PLEX so easily.

But the demand for PLEX will keep going up and up, pushing the price of it higher and higher until it costs nearly as much to PLEX for a month and rip as you can make selling the SP. And I bet the ceiling price on a skillpacket will be pretty high. The only thing that will push PLEX back down is more supply of PLEX coming from people putting more RL money into the game, perhaps to buy more SPs.

But will there be enough new RL money from this to compensate for the ones who used to pay multiple subs but can now run their alt accounts for free if they don't want them to gain SPs? I'll be paying *less* RL money a month not more after this change because I don't need to train on all my accounts, I just use them for convenience.

But no doubt some people will get very rich on this at the beginning ...

Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#577 - 2016-01-19 17:05:30 UTC
Okay, I've read enough salt-encrusted posts by entitled whiners.

This is my main. There are many like it. But this one is mine. I would never consider selling it. But I would consider selling off some misplaced SP because I had no one to tell me what was good to train or even for what learning skills were used back in 2009. I have completely wasted SP in mining and industry on this toon. I want to sell them.

I really don't care what my SP total is, other than as some sort of vague e-peen wagging. Sure it feels good to look at it and occasionally take it out and blow my load all over someone. But it is not what makes Soldarius Soldarius. It is, like everything else on the character sheet, a part of the character. Even if I do not choose to use any of the various character modification options that CCP has given us, I am glad to know they are there. So if I want to modify my clothes, my portrait, my ships, or soon my SP allocations, I can.

If there is one thing I have learned about Eve, it is that your irl wallet size is not directly proportional to your skill in game. TMC, EN24, and others are packed full of articles showcasing potatoes that think eve is p2w. They pull out dad's credit card and plex their way to that all purple marauder and think they are invincible.

I don't care how many SP you have or how many purples you have. If you don't know how to play the game and whip out your wallet on day 1, you will still get #HAZED mercilessly until you either HTFU or gb2wow.

On the other hand, if this gives a noob some incentive to farm up for a bit and accelerate himself into some of those low-SP doctrine ships like Svipuls, Caracals, T1 logi, or a Celestis for FU fleet, I'm okay with that. I don't doubt for a minute the most wealthy entities will throw injectors onto the market at cost in their local trade hub. Or maybe even give them away as an incentive to join. Jita injectors will get manipulated. New stuff always does.

As far as SP-farming, if it is profitable, I will do it. For me, that would be if I can make enough to pay for the extractors for one month of training + 1 PLEX per account. I might even pay PLEX to do multi-character training if there is enough profit in it. My goal would be to net 1 PLEX per month per character.

One of the few posts that made any sense or showed any redeeming qualities was the suggestion of having SP packs that focus on specific skills. I think that's a capital idea.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming
Tactical Narcotics Team
#578 - 2016-01-19 17:17:23 UTC
Soldarius wrote:


One of the few posts that made any sense or showed any redeeming qualities was the suggestion of having SP packs that focus on specific skills. I think that's a capital idea.


This would have been even more powerful in the days of clone grades. "Oh look Boat lost FC V, again. Well I can sell him the skill back for a premium and remind him to upgrade his clone this time."
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#579 - 2016-01-19 17:22:13 UTC
Zeddrick Anthar wrote:
Useful Alt wrote:
WTB 500b worth of SP

to be sold for 1T

rinse and repeat


this idea is bad, let see who will control the SP market

very nice cash cow btw but still very bad decision


Sounds too good to be true doesn't it? Well the problem is that trading, etc just generates more demand, which generates more supply as people plex an alt, train, rip, sell, repeat. Provided the skillpacket price stays well above the cost of training skills (1 plex per month plus the extractor things) people can keep doing more alts and supplying more and more SPs. Supply is effectively infinite, I can always make more alts if they can pay for their own PLEX so easily.

But the demand for PLEX will keep going up and up, pushing the price of it higher and higher until it costs nearly as much to PLEX for a month and rip as you can make selling the SP. And I bet the ceiling price on a skillpacket will be pretty high. The only thing that will push PLEX back down is more supply of PLEX coming from people putting more RL money into the game, perhaps to buy more SPs.

But will there be enough new RL money from this to compensate for the ones who used to pay multiple subs but can now run their alt accounts for free if they don't want them to gain SPs? I'll be paying *less* RL money a month not more after this change because I don't need to train on all my accounts, I just use them for convenience.

But no doubt some people will get very rich on this at the beginning ...


So will I, probably even create more "free" alts to gank with, since they need only a limited amount of SP anyway. And who will actually pay the PLEX then? Some newbie scrub will now pay my ganking because he thinks he needs more SP to be competitive? Nice stuff CCP!

Even if it does not pay the full PLEX, so I just sub occasionally, but I will in the end funnel less money to CCP and not more, this is for sure.

And to all the people who want to PLEX AND train? Sorry, no luck for you, no more f2p except if you are space rich and can afford the insane PLEX price.

It's not like no one wrote this in the last thread. It seams CCP is totally ok with it or thinks it will somehow not happen.
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#580 - 2016-01-19 17:27:19 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Any idea on Arum cost for the extractor ?

My Rough estimates & Guesses are:-

$20 buys 1 PLEX (excluding bulk & offers) / which equals 1 multiple training certificate that creates (standard implants) average 1.5 million skill points - Enough for 3 inject-able lots

$20 buys 3600 Aurum (excluding bulk & offers) - Divide by 3 = 1200

My best guess is 1 extractor will cost 1200 Aurum
Why would the injector cost the same (actually more at peak training rate) as the SP?



The injector is the product created by the extractor + 500K SP and I supposed you can charge whatever you can get for it

I was thinking the extractor will be on a par with a dual training certificate - tho you may be right, maybe they will be cheaper.


I was wondering if it will kill off the character bazaar because why would you ever sell a whole character created by dual training an alt when you could break it up for greater profit also will characters trained for a specific role still be worth more that any old meat Popsicle with the same number of skill points

I suppose their standings may be worth something, for when you need to put up a POS....Oh Wait... lol