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Dev blog: Skill trading in New Eden

First post First post First post
Author
Mindseamstress
Jovian Labs
Jovian Enterprises
#241 - 2016-01-18 19:25:33 UTC
Having spent 13 ears in Eve I absolutely detest this idea. Didn't quite take it seriously at first glance as I thought this was making a mockery of Eve but yes... this is obviously being rolled out and again with an emphasis on boosting low SP character.

Rather than wrecking the sandbox yet again it would be nice to see work put into actually expanding the game. Stop tweaking. Stop the bad tweaks in particular. Start delivering more content. Thanks!

My two cents.
Castelo Selva
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#242 - 2016-01-18 19:26:29 UTC
CCP Directors / Devs,

You just kill my loyalty and pride.
As I can change the game, the only choice for me is “stay and deal with it” or quit.
So, I am out, with all my accounts.
No, I will not give my stuffs to anyone (sorry guys).
I will keep it as a trophy for all I conquer. Maybe, one day, I just come back.
I was a good ride. Thank you for all these (almost) 12 years.
I wish for Eve and the Company the best.
Fly safe, but not so safe to not having fun.

Castelo
Aetran Molou
Tech 3 Crew
Tech 3 Crew Affiliates
#243 - 2016-01-18 19:28:30 UTC
Have injectors for individual skills been considered yet?
This would solve many of the issues that have been brought up.
Not only would individual skill injectors bring more complexity to this market, but it makes things more similar to the character bazaar: in order for a skill to be marketed, someone else would've had to buy, train, and extract that specific skill.
The main advantage of this is that the skill market remains a closed bubble; this way if I sell all of the SP for Amarr Carrier V, it gets re-marketed as Amarr Carrier V to another player instead of just giving them a ton of raw SP that they can redistribute into anything they want, potentially allowing them to gain an unfair advantage.
onefineday
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#244 - 2016-01-18 19:29:45 UTC  |  Edited by: onefineday
I Like the idea, its grate but most of old players would pay if we could rearrange our skill points, as it was times then we trained skills unnecessary to characters do to the lack of knowledge or available data bases. So as this skill trading is a valid idea i still lose way to much skill points if i want to rearrange them just for my self without trading them on a market. Would it be possible just to add function nr 3 for people ho want to clean up their own accounts without giving them penalty this sort of function could be like once a year same as attribute rebalance or something like this i don't know seems really painful at this stage as loses are way to big and not really worth wile.
Joshen Aultrelios
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#245 - 2016-01-18 19:30:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Joshen Aultrelios
I don't have any particular qualms with the idea, as despite the cries of "pay to win" the SP will typically be reductive of the overall pool of SP, and it will allow players in the 2-3y range to catch up in small niche roles they may have been curious about but unwilling to devote time towards. However, I do believe this will draw into even sharper focus the need for a re-balance on attributes and remapping, as having a SP farmer (something in a dedicated skill map with +5s training L5 rigging skills over and over) starts to look really necessary if you're on a bad remap, particularly in the 5-50mil SP range, which is where lots of first year players will find themselves. The struggle to manage gaining necessary support skills while trying to get into fun ships is probably the hardest part of the first year in EVE (I'm approx. 90d out from the point, as a matter of fact; watching my planned SP farmer crush my main in skilling up is pretty rough), and while this SP change is certainly a nice sop, it doesn't address the greater issue.

I am aware that CCP has mentioned this issue and (presumably) are working on it, and I realize this may be out of the purview of both this particular thread and the developer group associated with this change, but how hard would it be to include a change like bimonthly (i.e., every other month) skill remaps or something as well in order to act as a stop-gap until a better system can be laid in place? While I certainly plan on using these skill injectors to correct my newbie skill up mistakes, it is more than a little frustrating that my "mistakes" are not ones of choosing things I didn't like, but ones of needing things across so many attributes I could not possibly skill them efficiently, thus falling behind a dedicated skill mapper because I wanted to play now rather than later.
Estelie Heyan
Xri
#246 - 2016-01-18 19:33:22 UTC
Hulk Miner wrote:
I was looking forward to getting rid of some skills no doubt along with a lot of other long term players from my skill sheet, make the OCD eve community a little happier and remove the skill from the skill sheet when transferred into an injector

Agemnia Auhman
Auhman Project Heavy Industrial Division
#247 - 2016-01-18 19:34:23 UTC
''We weren’t sure exactly what to expect but it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that you’re also ready for some big changes in EVE, ''


I am amazed at this rather 'economical truth' as Mr Cameron would put it, surely it was also abundantly clear that as many if not more players were pretty unhappy with the decision to even bring it to the table let alone implement it.
I don't really mind what happens with skill trading, but please don't selectively choose which feedback you want to take and that which you ignore and pretend wasn't said.

My main Concern is not in skill trading but the fact that EVE online is becoming a Cash Cow for Valkyrie's budget, a game which may be awesome, but is not EVE Online, will be separate to eve online and because of the way VR works will hinge not on the quality of the final game, but whether or not VR gaming will take off in the way many people want it to.
Skins, renaming toons, Skill trading, all of this seems a very good way to get a big injection of cash without actually changing anything.

I may be totally wrong, but this is really what it seems like CCP are doing. Please don't let EVE online fade away into a substandard game because you are concentrating on the possibility of another game being good.
ViolentDesire
78934223
#248 - 2016-01-18 19:38:36 UTC
Aetran Molou wrote:
Have injectors for individual skills been considered yet?
This would solve many of the issues that have been brought up.
Not only would individual skill injectors bring more complexity to this market, but it makes things more similar to the character bazaar: in order for a skill to be marketed, someone else would've had to buy, train, and extract that specific skill.
The main advantage of this is that the skill market remains a closed bubble; this way if I sell all of the SP for Amarr Carrier V, it gets re-marketed as Amarr Carrier V to another player instead of just giving them a ton of raw SP that they can redistribute into anything they want, potentially allowing them to gain an unfair advantage.


Probably doesnt bring in enough money.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#249 - 2016-01-18 19:43:28 UTC
Querns wrote:
Julien Brellier wrote:
Pay-to-win micro transactions creeping into Eve.

A sad day.

Considering the SP being passed around has to come from players training the skills at the normal rate, how is this any more "pay-to-win" than the character bazaar?


let say you have lot of isk to buy skill points, i bet there is lot of people who are willing to buy that sp for chars with over 80m sp TO MAKE CHAR WITH ALL LEVEL 5, not because they need but just because they can.

so i bet new players are not going to get it after all.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#250 - 2016-01-18 19:43:35 UTC
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
i think like every single person raging against this change just has a high-sp character and is v. angry they are no longer elite for having paid subscription fees for longer

Not really. Most of the high-SP players are among the space-rich, with more ISK in wallet than they can currently spend, and will be easily able to afford to buy up the Skill Injectors which others create and sell on the market. They will not need to reprocess their own SP, and thus are not affected by the 500K-to-150K SP conversion rate. So, most of them support this change.

The players most adversely affected will be the mid-SP players, with about 1-2 years invested in the game, and with less ISK and less RL cash in wallet, who will not be able to afford to buy Skill Injectors. Also, the ones who need to reprocess SP at a loss (ex. 500K-to-400K and 500K-to-300K SP conversion rates), in order to move SP around, are getting shafted.

This change will also likely discourage certain new players, who do not have deep RL wallets nor space-rich friends already in the game. As someone else previously commented, even if this is not actually pay-to-win, it has the outward appearance of pay-to-win. I tend to believe that the majority of first-time players fall in this category, so I'm disinclined to believe that this change will increase the number of new players.

Is this pay-to-win, though? It depends on whether you consider SP = win. I do not.

But, I do think that this change is a bad idea, because too many players, esp. newer players, do think that way.
Estelie Heyan
Xri
#251 - 2016-01-18 19:46:57 UTC
Agemnia Auhman wrote:
My main Concern is not in skill trading but the fact that EVE online is becoming a Cash Cow for Valkyrie's budget, a game which may be awesome, but is not EVE Online

Hi hello. If you like EVE Online then you should like CCP hf. You should also like for CCP to make boatloads of money and be financially viable.

Its good for them and good for us as players. The market has changed many times over the years and companies that dont change with it cease to exist.
King Aires
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#252 - 2016-01-18 19:49:01 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
i think like every single person raging against this change just has a high-sp character and is v. angry they are no longer elite for having paid subscription fees for longer

Not really. Most of the high-SP players are among the space-rich, with more ISK in wallet than they can currently spend, and will be easily able to afford to buy up the Skill Injectors which others create and sell on the market. They will not need to reprocess their own SP, and thus are not affected by the 500K-to-150K SP conversion rate. So, most of them support this change.

The players most adversely affected will be the mid-SP players, with about 1-2 years invested in the game, and with less ISK and less RL cash in wallet, who will not be able to afford to buy Skill Injectors. Also, the ones who need to reprocess SP at a loss (ex. 500K-to-400K and 500K-to-300K SP conversion rates), in order to move SP around, are getting shafted.

This change will also likely discourage certain new players, who do not have deep RL wallets nor space-rich friends already in the game. As someone else previously commented, even if this is not actually pay-to-win, it has the outward appearance of pay-to-win. I tend to believe that the majority of first-time players fall in this category, so I'm disinclined to believe that this change will increase the number of new players.

Is this pay-to-win, though? It depends on whether you consider SP = win. I do not.

But, I do think that this change is a bad idea, because too many players, esp. newer players, do think that way.



That isn't how this works.

There is one SP Injector and its effect is dependent on the targets current SP load. Doesn't change how much is Extracted. 500k is extracted each time, the amount you get changes based on your current target.

So no, High SP Players don't like this, we would rather see a 1:1 across the board.
Obidiah Kane
Black Rebel Rifter Club
The Devil's Tattoo
#253 - 2016-01-18 19:53:30 UTC
The Undiscovered Country...the old and the unimaginative fear change, the control freaks and egocentric loners fight it to the bitter end...but when it comes to history, the Motherland, they are always the first forgotten. In this instance they are so blind with rage that they don't even understand the reality of what they are railing against. If any existing player sees this as a threat...well, some one needs to remind them its a computer game....and a business - only playable if its making money and retaining and expanding its pipeline.

Thus, this game needs new players - for both content and its future, to stay and pay, and these new players need to feel like they have a chance and have options rather than just be bullied by some self entitled 'I have been here longer than you' neckbeard. It will change the landscape of the game, for sure, but for better or worse is utterly unknown at the moment.

Keep exploring all avenues CCP, keep trying stuff on for size - you provide an utterly unique niche product to a very few intelligent adults, most of whom are very grateful for your efforts to ensure both your own and our futures in New Eden. Good luck with this.

Alexxei
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#254 - 2016-01-18 19:55:04 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
Most of the high-SP players are among the space-rich, with more ISK in wallet than they can currently spend, and will be easily able to afford to buy up the Skill Injectors which others create and sell on the market.

High sp players dont need to buy these, high sp players will be creating these for those who wish to inject some sp. I have a subcap pilot, a carrier/dread pilot and a supercap pilot. Why would I need to buy or inject sp?

It seems to me like angry nerds are equating sp with skill or some kind of insurmountable advantage. Skilled players and players who know what skills do and also the rock-paper-scissors nature of ship balancing will roll right over someone who just whipped out a wallet trying to buy an advantage.
jason hill
Red vs Blue Flight Academy
#255 - 2016-01-18 19:55:38 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Obil Que wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Your intuition that they weren't aiming for people to stack SP on their 80mil+ SP charcaters is correct.

Your idea (and CCP's) of how new players should be introduced to the game is troublesome - very troublesome.


Current:

Sorry Tommy, you can't play with us because you don't have X skill. Please wait [insert long wait time here] before you can come play with the big boys. Or you can spend hundreds of dollars buying PLEX to buy a character and give up your current character.

Future:

Hey Tommy, come play with us. Here's some SP to get you started. If you need more, you can get a jump start with a PLEX or two if you want to skip a couple weeks or a month of waiting.

Future Tommy seems to have better options...


Current: "Hey Tommy, you can't fly a HAC yet, but here is an alternative tech1 ship with tech1 items you can fly and still come along, and when you CAN fly that HAC, you will have a sense of accomplishment from the time you put in as well as how you had to learn which skills to train.

Future: "Who is Tommy? Oh yea, that guy we gave some skills to that got bored within a week because everything was handed to him, thus preventing him from developing any sense of accomplishment or ownership in the game. I heard he's playing World of Warships now".


Some people (including some at CCP) don't really understand the draw of this game, now do they?



this is mainly because most of CCP employees weren't around at the very beginning of the game and don't really understand the "learning curve" most of the player base have gone through ... an example of this is the removal of the learning skills them selves they removed those skills with no consultation with the player base .Sadly it appears to me that this "new crop" of CCp employees that work there appear to come in with this "ive got a really innovative idea that we should implement " without really understanding the culture that has developed in the community over the decades .... PS 140 million SP character adding his tuppence worth .
Aerious
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#256 - 2016-01-18 19:55:44 UTC
King Aires wrote:


There is one SP Injector and its effect is dependent on the targets current SP load. Doesn't change how much is Extracted. 500k is extracted each time, the amount you get changes based on your current target.

So no, High SP Players don't like this, we would rather see a 1:1 across the board.


Being a high SP (213m) player myself, i dont want to see this implemented at all, but if is to be implemented, i would rather it be used by new player up to 20m SP and capped at 20m SP. There is no reason really why a higher SP character would need this.

"They worried we would eventually offer not just vanity items, but ones that would give the Haves an unfair advantage over the Have-Nots."

Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#257 - 2016-01-18 19:57:03 UTC
King Aires wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
i think like every single person raging against this change just has a high-sp character and is v. angry they are no longer elite for having paid subscription fees for longer

Not really. Most of the high-SP players are among the space-rich, with more ISK in wallet than they can currently spend, and will be easily able to afford to buy up the Skill Injectors which others create and sell on the market. They will not need to reprocess their own SP, and thus are not affected by the 500K-to-150K SP conversion rate. So, most of them support this change.

The players most adversely affected will be the mid-SP players, with about 1-2 years invested in the game, and with less ISK and less RL cash in wallet, who will not be able to afford to buy Skill Injectors. Also, the ones who need to reprocess SP at a loss (ex. 500K-to-400K and 500K-to-300K SP conversion rates), in order to move SP around, are getting shafted.

This change will also likely discourage certain new players, who do not have deep RL wallets nor space-rich friends already in the game. As someone else previously commented, even if this is not actually pay-to-win, it has the outward appearance of pay-to-win. I tend to believe that the majority of first-time players fall in this category, so I'm disinclined to believe that this change will increase the number of new players.

Is this pay-to-win, though? It depends on whether you consider SP = win. I do not.

But, I do think that this change is a bad idea, because too many players, esp. newer players, do think that way.



That isn't how this works.

There is one SP Injector and its effect is dependent on the targets current SP load. Doesn't change how much is Extracted. 500k is extracted each time, the amount you get changes based on your current target.

So no, High SP Players don't like this, we would rather see a 1:1 across the board.

No, you don't get it. Read my comment more closely.

High SP players - with deep ISK wallets - have no reason to ever extract SP. If they need really need more SP immediately, they can buy the injectors which other players are creating and selling on market.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#258 - 2016-01-18 19:58:51 UTC
CCPls character renaming token with recorded name history. No reason not to do this now.

Obviously not for this magnificently named character.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Sissy Fuzz
Sissy Fuzz Communications
#259 - 2016-01-18 20:00:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Sissy Fuzz
EvilweaselFinance wrote:

Vibiana wrote:
... something ...


it is amazing how many people with strong opinions on this subject don't know the character bazar exists


Not as amazing as how goons really love this. Hi skill-farming!

This is not comparable at all to character bazar. This is just micropay-to-own and another money machine for CCP.

The fact that goons - who seem to be hired by CCP to promote the thing - like the idea overly much, is a good sign that it will dumb EVE further down, and leave it closer to being just another ordinary piece of commodity-grinding ****.

Now, to be fair, I understand why goons love this. Their idea of EVE has always been about exactly what CCP is trying to commoditize - The Easy Win. As in easy-scam, easy-gank, easy-sabotaging any playstyle that is not their own. Which CCP really digs, because it makes EVE so 'dark' and 'hard' and 'HTFU', and go buy yourself some skills to cope, as of soon. It is important to realize that this symbiosis between CCP and goons has its roots in the fact that the nerds in Reykiavik long so much for the acceptance and recognition from the hip folks in Goonswarm that they will do anything to achieve it.

A fundamental quality of EVE has always been the common feeling of achievement, because we have all had to do hard time. The long progression through skills necessary to slowly rise in power and to gradually open the game up. CCP now seems focused on removing all the elements of this game that made it stand out and stick together - all the real challenge in game and now also out-of game. Insta-bingo being the truly pathetic goal.

Oh and the piece of spin in the dev blog, trying to smooth over the sale... wow folks, we're really surprised how much you want this change... It stinks!! But cheap spin and pay-to-win sort of goes perfectly hand in hand. Actually, I think we might be looking at the exit-scenario, in which CCP now has to produce a marketable revenue structure to match the founders' aspirations in a forthcomming acquisition of CCP.

EvilweaselFinance wrote:

I think like every single person raging against this change just has a high-sp character and is v. angry they are no longer elite for having paid subscription fees for longer

I think you are right. And what's your point, goonie?
King Aires
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#260 - 2016-01-18 20:04:02 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
King Aires wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
i think like every single person raging against this change just has a high-sp character and is v. angry they are no longer elite for having paid subscription fees for longer

Not really. Most of the high-SP players are among the space-rich, with more ISK in wallet than they can currently spend, and will be easily able to afford to buy up the Skill Injectors which others create and sell on the market. They will not need to reprocess their own SP, and thus are not affected by the 500K-to-150K SP conversion rate. So, most of them support this change.

The players most adversely affected will be the mid-SP players, with about 1-2 years invested in the game, and with less ISK and less RL cash in wallet, who will not be able to afford to buy Skill Injectors. Also, the ones who need to reprocess SP at a loss (ex. 500K-to-400K and 500K-to-300K SP conversion rates), in order to move SP around, are getting shafted.

This change will also likely discourage certain new players, who do not have deep RL wallets nor space-rich friends already in the game. As someone else previously commented, even if this is not actually pay-to-win, it has the outward appearance of pay-to-win. I tend to believe that the majority of first-time players fall in this category, so I'm disinclined to believe that this change will increase the number of new players.

Is this pay-to-win, though? It depends on whether you consider SP = win. I do not.

But, I do think that this change is a bad idea, because too many players, esp. newer players, do think that way.



That isn't how this works.

There is one SP Injector and its effect is dependent on the targets current SP load. Doesn't change how much is Extracted. 500k is extracted each time, the amount you get changes based on your current target.

So no, High SP Players don't like this, we would rather see a 1:1 across the board.

No, you don't get it. Read my comment more closely.

High SP players - with deep ISK wallets - have no reason to ever extract SP. If they need really need more SP immediately, they can buy the injectors which other players are creating and selling on market.



You don't get it.

Extractors take 500k sp, each and every time
Injectors give 150k sp to the high skilled player, or 500k to the newb.

The only place sp can come from is +5mil sp players

So I don't think you understandhow this works.