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Dev blog: Skill trading in New Eden

First post First post First post
Author
Berrice Silf
Academy of the Imperial Guards
#2101 - 2016-02-16 20:28:46 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Ed Bever wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Berrice Silf wrote:
Your self righteous bullsh1t is astounding, CCP didn't give us the opportunity to vote on this
Actually they did, not in the introduction of the mechanic, but in it's apparent success. We could have easily stifled that by simply NOT EXTRACTING OUR SP. So I guess it's bullshit now to point to an act people are doing voluntarily because it doesn't conform to the latest series of objections?


That is not entirely correct. You forget that this is EVE, and any one person MUST presume that any next person will use any and all means provided to him. It is the nature of the game to use this, even if it destroys the game.
That view is actually more problematic from the seller's standpoint because there was already a mechanic which did the same thing in providing isk: PLEX.

So there was already an out for that demand without any compromise. Buyers are different, but they are enabled by sellers.

Edit: It's interesting to invoke "This is Eve" as a reason for participation when the objection this stemmed from was based in the notion of how Un-Eve this was and how the entire idea breaks an eve fundamental concept.
our virtual goods strategy for EVE Online will remain limited in scope and focus on vanity items, or as we said after the CSM visit this summer: The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time
So every single aspect of eve is now monetized, that statement means nothing he even had a lackey write it. He has no integrity neither does CCP as a whole. since the original crew have all but departed your left with the crap to keep on eking out every single penny they can and try to sell it as what everyone wanted.

Even if 99% of the player base refused to use it but the 1% did the whole game now is based around real world transactions to progress, what ever way you paint it the original eve is over now. All this will draw to it is wallet warriors and maybe some ex trialer come to see what its about. There is nothing to work towards anymore, time is irrelevant when you can pay to jump into anything buy anything basically do anything its like being given the /giveall command so long as you get your CC out.

When you don't have to do anything to get everything what is the point of even starting. Remember the old cartoon about eve's learning curve guy looking up a cliff, the new joke one now is sitting in a titan waving a credit card with him shouting 1 day old. The game has gone from having the reputation of being the harshest pvp game out there to flexing a card gets you anything and you'll be lucky to bump into a player out of the main hubs. In such a short space of time its gone from having a good rep for being a hard game to master to almost jokes about how lame its become.

General consensus carries weight and what's being written in forums in alot of places now is that its just gone p2w all stemming from ironbanks stunt.
Ed Bever
Evolution
Northern Coalition.
#2102 - 2016-02-16 20:44:14 UTC
Another idea that may be worth thinking about, in this context: The introduction of Citadels, the removal of medical clone upgrades, the introduction of Multiple Character Training Certificates, now the skill injectors, all contribute to one and the same thing, at least in the long term: a strong decrease in the need for multiple accounts. CCP, being a corperation which still seeks (and has to seek) ways to make more money, lowers the incentive for subscriptions to be paid.

Am i the only one seeing a potential problem here?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#2103 - 2016-02-16 21:25:54 UTC
This is definitely eve. The responses are as expected, both in the market and in the forums.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Ed Bever
Evolution
Northern Coalition.
#2104 - 2016-02-16 21:37:11 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
This is definitely eve. The responses are as expected, both in the market and in the forums.


The same can be said about the entities that post the responses, i suppose.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2105 - 2016-02-16 21:50:53 UTC
Berrice Silf wrote:
our virtual goods strategy for EVE Online will remain limited in scope and focus on vanity items, or as we said after the CSM visit this summer: The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time
So every single aspect of eve is now monetized, that statement means nothing he even had a lackey write it. He has no integrity neither does CCP as a whole. since the original crew have all but departed your left with the crap to keep on eking out every single penny they can and try to sell it as what everyone wanted.
Allow me to ask then, back when those words were uttered:

Did you question their intent with PLEX and the Bazaar and how they violate the letter of the written promise at the same moment and even before and clarify what was meant?
Did you notice from PLEX, the Bazaar, Power of 2 promotions and later MCTCs that they were never shy about selling time or training and further allowing us to trade it?
Did you notice how that effective monetization of SP already existed?
Did you not notice that those "vanity items" were still an effective vector for isk?
Did you think that the leap from forum sold GTCs to PLEX would never possibly be replicated in any form with the Bazaar and SP?

I ask because for someone who speaks of integrity, it seems you're doing so with an idealistic and less than real view of the past. One where CCP didn't promote and profit from RMT and character trades as a means to bypass isk earning and training. One where they weren't doing it while making promises that according to you would have prevented it. We in our relative silence effectively confirmed that selling time between each other was fine. They just took our word on it.

Now you're are trying to put the genie back in the bottle and pretend this is some new sort of evil. It isn't, it's admittedly less limited to those specifically in the know about it, but I find that higher accessibility preferable to more exclusive advantages.

Berrice Silf wrote:
Even if 99% of the player base refused to use it but the 1% did the whole game now is based around real world transactions to progress, what ever way you paint it the original eve is over now. All this will draw to it is wallet warriors and maybe some ex trialer come to see what its about. There is nothing to work towards anymore, time is irrelevant when you can pay to jump into anything buy anything basically do anything its like being given the /giveall command so long as you get your CC out.

When you don't have to do anything to get everything what is the point of even starting. Remember the old cartoon about eve's learning curve guy looking up a cliff, the new joke one now is sitting in a titan waving a credit card with him shouting 1 day old. The game has gone from having the reputation of being the harshest pvp game out there to flexing a card gets you anything and you'll be lucky to bump into a player out of the main hubs. In such a short space of time its gone from having a good rep for being a hard game to master to almost jokes about how lame its become.

General consensus carries weight and what's being written in forums in alot of places now is that its just gone p2w all stemming from ironbanks stunt.
We were always based around real world transactions. That's what subs are regardless of whether the end user partook in that step. And "based around" is entirely deceptive even in the sense you mean it since all SP is sourced the same way it always has been, making progress based on and dependent upon traditional skill training.

As for what the point is? Leaving aside the fact that the "shortcuts" only work as a direct result of other players finding a point, as has always been the case, isn't the point to determine that point yourself? No one specifically themselves needs to earn isk so long as someone else who buys PLEX is still doing it, but enough people still earn their isk AND demand PLEX to raise and hold the price at and now slightly above 1.2B.

What's funny about the rep though, is that it's no more true than it ever was, but with individuals like yourself regurgitating the same talking points it's no wonder it's the belief being spread. Fact is the perception is controllable most by players and when they go out of their way to whine about everything that's the perception that the outside world sticks with for lack of knowing enough to determine for themselves. The story largely gets interpreted as "CCP sells SP" but when I actually explain it to non-players they go from thinking "money grab" to "that's pretty clever" with some understanding of the skill system and how the origin of SP is unchanged.

For those who know, ironbank is nothing more than a non-gameplay affecting publicity stunt.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2106 - 2016-02-16 21:59:06 UTC
Ed Bever wrote:
Another idea that may be worth thinking about, in this context: The introduction of Citadels, the removal of medical clone upgrades, the introduction of Multiple Character Training Certificates, now the skill injectors, all contribute to one and the same thing, at least in the long term: a strong decrease in the need for multiple accounts. CCP, being a corperation which still seeks (and has to seek) ways to make more money, lowers the incentive for subscriptions to be paid.

Am i the only one seeing a potential problem here?
Clone upgrades and citadels really don't have a direct effect on subs.

MCTCs and injectors are all the cost of a PLEX based sub (actually more in the case of the latter) with a fraction of the benefits.

Basically CCP is finding ways to entice single sub players to pay or entice others to pay multi-sub levels of money.

The irony is that unless you're already making a lot of isk for PLEXing accounts and are fine with that, the price point of the alternatives makes having multiple accounts look attractive for the benefit. At least in my opinion.
Ed Bever
Evolution
Northern Coalition.
#2107 - 2016-02-16 22:11:53 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Clone upgrades and citadels really don't have a direct effect on subs.

MCTCs and injectors are all the cost of a PLEX based sub (actually more in the case of the latter) with a fraction of the benefits.

Basically CCP is finding ways to entice single sub players to pay or entice others to pay multi-sub levels of money.

The irony is that unless you're already making a lot of isk for PLEXing accounts and are fine with that, the price point of the alternatives makes having multiple accounts look attractive for the benefit. At least in my opinion.


I respectfully disagree. Clone upgrades made an ever increasing ammount of SP on one character be a matter of "risk vs reward", where as, currently, there is no argument to limit the SP on a single toon in any way. Additionally, supers and titans have always been considered coffins, because once you got into one, you never got out (under normal circumstances anyway) until you died. In other words, that particular toon was locked, being useful for nothing other then flying that one ship. Citadels unlock the option to use whatever ship a super or titan pilot can fly without loosing the super or titan. Therefor, both changes reduce the need for multiple accounts (in my oppinion).
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2108 - 2016-02-16 22:19:35 UTC
Ed Bever wrote:
I respectfully disagree. Clone upgrades made an ever increasing ammount of SP on one character be a matter of "risk vs reward", where as, currently, there is no argument to limit the SP on a single toon in any way.
So on a subset of players who were willing to spread training between characters to reduce clone fees but didn't have the slots to do so this may have increased subs? Possible, but not a likely driver. Hundreds of millions per month plus time training redundancies to avoid tens of millions on pod loss isn't smart math. Paying the account is cash removes the in game cost, but again, to reduce some relatively trivial fees? I can't see how the practice was anything more than extremely rare.

Ed Bever wrote:
Additionally, supers and titans have always been considered coffins, because once you got into one, you never got out (under normal circumstances anyway) until you died. In other words, that particular toon was locked, being useful for nothing other then flying that one ship. Citadels unlock the option to use whatever ship a super or titan pilot can fly without loosing the super or titan. Therefor, both changes reduce the need for multiple accounts (in my oppinion).
That's why people had holding alts for supers, which actually does contribute to your point, but as above, not in considerable numbers.
Ed Bever
Evolution
Northern Coalition.
#2109 - 2016-02-16 22:28:05 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Ed Bever wrote:
I respectfully disagree. Clone upgrades made an ever increasing ammount of SP on one character be a matter of "risk vs reward", where as, currently, there is no argument to limit the SP on a single toon in any way.
So on a subset of players who were willing to spread training between characters to reduce clone fees but didn't have the slots to do so this may have increased subs? Possible, but not a likely driver. Hundreds of millions per month plus time training redundancies to avoid tens of millions on pod loss isn't smart math. Paying the account is cash removes the in game cost, but again, to reduce some relatively trivial fees? I can't see how the practice was anything more than extremely rare.

Ed Bever wrote:
Additionally, supers and titans have always been considered coffins, because once you got into one, you never got out (under normal circumstances anyway) until you died. In other words, that particular toon was locked, being useful for nothing other then flying that one ship. Citadels unlock the option to use whatever ship a super or titan pilot can fly without loosing the super or titan. Therefor, both changes reduce the need for multiple accounts (in my oppinion).
That's why people had holding alts for supers, which actually does contribute to your point, but as above, not in considerable numbers.


It is true that each inividual point by itself does not contribute a whole lot to this effect. Subscriptions have been in decline for a while now, and i would have expected to see changes that, in the long term would increase subscriptions. It makes me sad to, instead, see changes that would increase CCP's revenue for a short period of time, only.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2110 - 2016-02-16 23:05:08 UTC
Ed Bever wrote:
It is true that each inividual point by itself does not contribute a whole lot to this effect. Subscriptions have been in decline for a while now, and i would have expected to see changes that, in the long term would increase subscriptions. It makes me sad to, instead, see changes that would increase CCP's revenue for a short period of time, only.
Not sure that last characterization is fair. It's not really "instead" when the game is going through some big changes for the very reasons of making things more engaging.

Also PCU hasn't really signaled a decline for a while now so much as stagnation.
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
#2111 - 2016-02-17 10:23:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Algarion Getz
Berrice Silf wrote:
So how can you class eve now the skill gate has been removed.

Previously it did not matter how wealthy you were in game or real life and the bazaar offered certain buyer beware concerns to gaining a character worked on by a previous owner.

We have the standard ( what now seems like f2p ) version that at best you can accumulate 2700 ph and generally work the markets / pvp / pve / mine - In for the long haul True EvE style.

Pay CCP subscription

OR

Pay CCP - Extractors
Pay plex - aurum - Extractors
Pay plex - aurum - skins
Pay plex- Injectors - skill points - accelerated toon
Pay plex - Isk - Ships
Pay plex - Isk - Modules
Pay plex - Isk - ????

and

Pay CCP subscription

Its definitely pay 2 something ....... laugh there bollox off all the way to the bank.

PvE in EVE is ... underwhelming. Skill training is slow. Instead of making PvE richer and more diverse and skill training for new players faster, CCP added a "Pay 2 Skip Boring Grind" option.

A classic F2P monetization strategy.
Berrice Silf
Academy of the Imperial Guards
#2112 - 2016-02-17 10:47:32 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Allow me to ask then, back when those words were uttered:

Did you question their intent with PLEX and the Bazaar and how they violate the letter of the written promise at the same moment and even before and clarify what was meant?
Did you notice from PLEX, the Bazaar, Power of 2 promotions and later MCTCs that they were never shy about selling time or training and further allowing us to trade it?
Did you notice how that effective monetization of SP already existed?
Did you not notice that those "vanity items" were still an effective vector for isk?
Did you think that the leap from forum sold GTCs to PLEX would never possibly be replicated in any form with the Bazaar and SP?

I ask because for someone who speaks of integrity, it seems you're doing so with an idealistic and less than real view of the past. One where CCP didn't promote and profit from RMT and character trades as a means to bypass isk earning and training. One where they weren't doing it while making promises that according to you would have prevented it. We in our relative silence effectively confirmed that selling time between each other was fine. They just took our word on it.

Now you're are trying to put the genie back in the bottle and pretend this is some new sort of evil. It isn't, it's admittedly less limited to those specifically in the know about it, but I find that higher accessibility preferable to more exclusive advantages..
All that basic waffle above is irrelevant as all was introduced way before that statement helmar made.

Ive been playing since end of december 2004 - The bazaar was already in full swing, same as selling GTC's for isk also. The plex didnt hit until 2009 i think, still 3 years before that statement was made - Plex was a grey area but i understood the need for alot of people and also the RMT ramifications it helped stem. None of the above gave anyone the ability to add time to an individual character from multiple sources either. Vanity items are just that they have no impact on anything in game you either want them or dont.

MCTC i've always found useless to be honest, what was the point of having 2 / 3 characters on one account that you can only use 1 at a time, now though its different as you can fully utilize the farming of skill points from each and every spare slot.

There is not legal RMT and illegal RMT either, You have the ToS laid out in the EULA you either abide by the rules set out in said document or you break them by some form of RMT.

Since the statement was made though we have now had this released, pretty much made a mockery of CCP / helmar / the game itself. The skill point is at the very core of the game enabling all aspects of play and you can buy it for cash, it has gone against everything that was held in the highest regard for the game - time investment.

Im not trying to put any genie back either, that boat sailed as soon as this hit, your trying to gloss it as accessibility which is just BS, It's nothing but pure greed. If it was in anyway to help the game they wouldnt have been the price they are and certainly do not help the average new joe. Don't you remember this yet your still a CCP suckass :

Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Berrice Silf wrote:
Ty, ive stayed quiet but the price ..... I told you so springs to mind Roll

Pure greedy bastards.
Now that we have it yes, there's nothing really to justify the price at least in my opinion.

You were correct.


Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#2113 - 2016-02-17 11:22:58 UTC
Berrice Silf wrote:
I think Tuesday the 9th feb will go down as the day the dev's turned the Lady into a tramp.



Edit: In a game that everything has a real world cash value for advancement, what now gives any incentive to achieve anything laid out in the construct.

At first i said they'd moved the goal post's, alas they've not moved but taken away. A game without goals is what exactly ????
February 17, the 9th was only a prelude.
Having more money than the next guy

Can you all feel CCP's grip on your credit card getting tighter.,.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2114 - 2016-02-17 11:38:43 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera
#2115 - 2016-02-17 13:23:16 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
It always comes back to it being the veterans doing the actual screwing up of things in this game, doesn't it?
Mr Epeen Cool
Which veterans are you talking about? All of them?
Perhaps you mean the ones that sit down with their time and teach new players how to play the game?
The one that make tutorials?
The ones that help for free and let new players go on their merry way to find their fun in the game?

Do you think it sounds like those veterans?

Perhaps you mean the veterans that farm new players to pad their killboards?
Now, those sort of veterans, yes, I have seen quite a few of them. They tend to be cold, calculating and squeeze everything out of everywhere. Strangely enough they also have a lot of alts and they wouldn't care about their creations. Bottom lines matter and what ever goal they have set themselves.

Try using a teaspoon rather than a shovel when you apply the tar, please. Cool

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Josef Djugashvilis
#2116 - 2016-02-17 13:42:30 UTC
I never really think of myself as a vet, but having started in early 2007, I suppose I am.

I would never buy or sell skill points as I believe it is bad for the game overall.

I do, some of the time, try to help new players in any way I can, including occasionally giving isk to new players (10m or so) and suggesting sensible ways they can spend it.

Mostly, I try to encourage new players to stick with the game and to try everything at least once to find out what suits them as a play style.

When I started, the then 'vet' players used to laugh at me for mining in an Itty 3, but they also gave me invaluable advice on the mechanics of the game.

Not all vets are bitter.

This is not a signature.

Berrice Silf
Academy of the Imperial Guards
#2117 - 2016-02-17 13:47:43 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Berrice Silf wrote:
I think Tuesday the 9th feb will go down as the day the dev's turned the Lady into a tramp.



Edit: In a game that everything has a real world cash value for advancement, what now gives any incentive to achieve anything laid out in the construct.

At first i said they'd moved the goal post's, alas they've not moved but taken away. A game without goals is what exactly ????
February 17, the 9th was only a prelude.
Having more money than the next guy

Can you all feel CCP's grip on your credit card getting tighter.,.


This just gets better all the time, remember the original blog from Rise
CCP Rise wrote:
We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point.

Now we have there new advert saying :
Skill Extractors.
Skill Extractors allow you to extract skillpoints from your character, which is great whenever you want to respec your skills, customize your skill tree or make some ISK. These skillpoints are loaded into a Skill Injector which can then be sold or traded to other players on the in-game marketplace.

So what actually is it, you don't want to be able to respec easily or you can as long as it involves the trusty flexible friend.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#2118 - 2016-02-17 14:14:07 UTC
Berrice Silf wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Berrice Silf wrote:
I think Tuesday the 9th feb will go down as the day the dev's turned the Lady into a tramp.



Edit: In a game that everything has a real world cash value for advancement, what now gives any incentive to achieve anything laid out in the construct.

At first i said they'd moved the goal post's, alas they've not moved but taken away. A game without goals is what exactly ????
February 17, the 9th was only a prelude.
Having more money than the next guy

Can you all feel CCP's grip on your credit card getting tighter.,.


This just gets better all the time, remember the original blog from Rise
CCP Rise wrote:
We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point.

Now we have there new advert saying :
Skill Extractors.
Skill Extractors allow you to extract skillpoints from your character, which is great whenever you want to respec your skills, customize your skill tree or make some ISK. These skillpoints are loaded into a Skill Injector which can then be sold or traded to other players on the in-game marketplace.

So what actually is it, you don't want to be able to respec easily or you can as long as it involves the trusty flexible friend.


Next will be pre-packed skills in the injectors at the required levels to 'fly your dream ship'...just like the new advert says...

Natural extension of this of course is saying 'Meh! Why have skills at all, just let people buy the ships straight off and fly them.'
Berrice Silf
Academy of the Imperial Guards
#2119 - 2016-02-17 14:51:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Berrice Silf
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Next will be pre-packed skills in the injectors at the required levels to 'fly your dream ship'...just like the new advert says...

Natural extension of this of course is saying 'Meh! Why have skills at all, just let people buy the ships straight off and fly them.'
Does kind of make you wonder if the dev's - marketing - customer support talk to each other.

Dev's - well if we try to make it sound like its for the good of X it will lessen the burden on us for Y

Marketing - Its my precious .... we wants all your money ..... give give give precious money.

Customer Support - Oh crap here we go again !!!

Red Faces all round. Please Ty drop a wisdom bomb on this one Roll
Bones Outten
Council of Economic Advisors
Bitter Vets n Noobs
#2120 - 2016-02-17 15:32:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Bones Outten
I have run out of reasons to login to Eve.

Oh yes, I need a way to buy NPC Corp standings so I can access any mission as anytime, then I can stay out :D

BTW: Skill injectors & SP trading have just devalued the reason most of us have invested thousands of pounds & decades of our lives. We could have just waited & bought what we have :S

Scribbles calculations 4 accounts 10+ years subscription + a few PLEX here & there = I could have had 2 decent titan pilots & cash left over, no more need to subscribe Yippee!

Goes to log into Elite Dangerous or another MMO ready to **** over their Beta/long term players.