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Dev blog: Skill trading in New Eden

First post First post First post
Author
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#2061 - 2016-02-12 08:00:02 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
I just encountered another side effect I did not actually expect but is actually straight forward. Since SP now has a price tag, every change or addition of skills now end in arguments about how much it will cost to play this new content in $$ and how greedy that is on CCPs part. Big smile
Not really much of a side effect considering it was already paid in training time prior.

How is that comment even remotely relevant to what I wrote? No one cares where that SP came from. It's on the market now and it has a price tag.
That would make sense to argue if market SP were the only source. It's not. Regular training still works, and was what I was referring to as opposed to filling injectors, allowing you to move into new content for no more than the price of your sub as before. There is no additional side effect here since being able to bank unallocated SP is both a player choice and the direct intended effect of skill injectors.

So the cost to play new content is an additional $0, how terribly greedy indeed. You can make it more if you want, but that's the players choice, not a CCP mandate.

Yes, it's the players choice, it's like: "Look, we completely separated this two roles and you can now train half a year to become operational again to defend your space empire, or you can just purchase your way up there like those other guys, it's your choice, no one is forcing anyone here, you are completely free to do as... oh look, they already deployed to take your stuff.. good luck!". I know, that's not how things ARE, but it is how things APPEAR, which is very important for a product which is essentially a hobby to a lot of people.

It seams like you are completely ignorant to this effects and just focus on the pure mechanics, which is not addressing the issue at all. I know, no one is forcing anyone to use that stuff, but the simple truth that this option is available is enough to change how people think about this things. And yes there is pressure to use this feature, it's not created by CCP intentionally (at least I think it is not, for now) but it appears like you have to use it to stay on top of the game in some situations.

And sorry, but to just pretend that there is no such side effect while this is actually happening in other threads is plain stupid. So IF you feel the need to share your not so big insights into thing, at least try to address the issues people are talking about?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2062 - 2016-02-12 08:27:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Yes, it's the players choice, it's like: "Look, we completely separated this two roles and you can now train half a year to become operational again to defend your space empire, or you can just purchase your way up there like those other guys, it's your choice, no one is forcing anyone here, you are completely free to do as... oh look, they already deployed to take your stuff.. good luck!". I know, that's not how things ARE, but it is how things APPEAR, which is very important for a product which is essentially a hobby to a lot of people.
So what you're saying is that taking advantage of the headstart being opened to all those pilots now, which due to the train involved and related justifiable complaints could result in an even better deal as CCP reconsiders somehow means all those nullsec alliances not buying SP will get caught with their pants down?

Really?

How did this completely oblivious alliance ignoring months forewarning and opportunity actually manage to take sov?

Ima Wreckyou wrote:
It seams like you are completely ignorant to this effects and just focus on the pure mechanics, which is not addressing the issue at all. I know, no one is forcing anyone to use that stuff, but the simple truth that this option is available is enough to change how people think about this things. And yes there is pressure to use this feature, it's not created by CCP intentionally (at least I think it is not, for now) but it appears like you have to use it to stay on top of the game in some situations.

And sorry, but to just pretend that there is no such side effect while this is actually happening in other threads is plain stupid. So IF you feel the need to share your not so big insights into thing, at least try to address the issues people are talking about?
No one is ignoring the effects, you're just exaggerating them to extremes. It takes either intentional stretching of the truth if not flat out deception for the scenario you panted to become reality for any decently knowledgeable group, much less a sov holding alliance. Yes the option is available, no it's still not mandated even just to be ready for the upcoming changes as those seem to be getting potentially less intensive on top of the head start.

So yes, even with the most SP intensive change in quite a while the slow way is still entirely viable. And especially so on that scale where the numbers and planning game matter far more than making sure each pilot has level 5 everything. That's where the individual SP game is mitigated the most.

The rest is unsupported projection. Now more than ever players are moving towards more and more trivial trains for each new thing that comes out. Some will want to be at the top first, but I'd imagine the vast majority here, with an understanding of how skills work and the massive investment involved, won't feel the need to be nearly so eager.

And really no, we haven't seen threads stating the effects you've claimed. We've seen people who wanted and did make the decision to participate, but seem to lack any claims of coercion by CCP on the part of the buyers. The only real complaints we've actually seen came from the opposite end of the spectrum claiming CCP strong armed them into selling SP, boredom and disenfranchisement.
Dibz
Doomheim
#2063 - 2016-02-12 11:11:06 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Yes, it's the players choice, it's like: "Look, we completely separated this two roles and you can now train half a year to become operational again to defend your space empire, or you can just purchase your way up there like those other guys, it's your choice, no one is forcing anyone here, you are completely free to do as... oh look, they already deployed to take your stuff.. good luck!". I know, that's not how things ARE, but it is how things APPEAR, which is very important for a product which is essentially a hobby to a lot of people.

It seams like you are completely ignorant to this effects and just focus on the pure mechanics, which is not addressing the issue at all. I know, no one is forcing anyone to use that stuff, but the simple truth that this option is available is enough to change how people think about this things. And yes there is pressure to use this feature, it's not created by CCP intentionally (at least I think it is not, for now) but it appears like you have to use it to stay on top of the game in some situations.


Yep. The game feels different now. Even if you don't want the carrot CCP is dangling in front of you, you are continuously being reminded it's there, you have to keep ignoring it.

Fact is, if you're not buying skill injectors your character is progressing much more slowly than the game allows for. Some will be okay with that, others will watch their skill queue slowly ticking down with a nagging sense that they're wasting time and being left behind.
Berrice Silf
Academy of the Imperial Guards
#2064 - 2016-02-12 11:26:04 UTC
Dibz wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Yes, it's the players choice, it's like: "Look, we completely separated this two roles and you can now train half a year to become operational again to defend your space empire, or you can just purchase your way up there like those other guys, it's your choice, no one is forcing anyone here, you are completely free to do as... oh look, they already deployed to take your stuff.. good luck!". I know, that's not how things ARE, but it is how things APPEAR, which is very important for a product which is essentially a hobby to a lot of people.

It seams like you are completely ignorant to this effects and just focus on the pure mechanics, which is not addressing the issue at all. I know, no one is forcing anyone to use that stuff, but the simple truth that this option is available is enough to change how people think about this things. And yes there is pressure to use this feature, it's not created by CCP intentionally (at least I think it is not, for now) but it appears like you have to use it to stay on top of the game in some situations.


Yep. The game feels different now. Even if you don't want the carrot CCP is dangling in front of you, you are continuously being reminded it's there, you have to keep ignoring it.

Fact is, if you're not buying skill injectors your character is progressing much more slowly than the game allows for. Some will be okay with that, others will watch their skill queue slowly ticking down with a nagging sense that they're wasting time and being left behind.

I find now this game has entered some very dangerous territory, in any game whether it's free 2 play or subscription if there are micro transactions for anything you don't loose it, may have to be repaired or again upgraded but never lost.

This has now become a almost like a fantasy space poker sim where you can invest hundreds to thousands of dollars and one mistake can see you losing the lot. This is fine if money is no object but chasing that carrot to some could be costly.

Another first for CCP an MMO that needs to have a Gambleaware status .

Jenshae Chiroptera
#2065 - 2016-02-12 11:36:43 UTC
Where is the feedback thread for skill injectors?

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#2066 - 2016-02-12 11:42:47 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Where is the feedback thread for skill injectors?


It's in this month's Accounts Receivable statement.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Berrice Silf
Academy of the Imperial Guards
#2067 - 2016-02-12 12:21:21 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Where is the feedback thread for skill injectors?


It's in this month's Accounts Receivable statement.

A sublime reply Twisted
Berrice Silf
Academy of the Imperial Guards
#2068 - 2016-02-12 15:34:33 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
No one is ignoring the effects, you're just exaggerating them to extremes.
If i remember correctly those were the same words you said to me when i stated that all the years of training could be blown out the water with someone just purchasing massive amounts of skill points ShockedPShocked
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2069 - 2016-02-12 17:28:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Berrice Silf wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
No one is ignoring the effects, you're just exaggerating them to extremes.
If i remember correctly those were the same words you said to me when i stated that all the years of training could be blown out the water with someone just purchasing massive amounts of skill points ShockedPShocked
No, my reply to that was, "Who cares if they do? Skills are capped at lvl V for a reason and only so much SP can be applied to any ship or fit" to paraphrase. I never expected that to be an exaggeration long term, but also consider it not a problem.

I also asked, since our existing training was unaffected and we retained all those abilities gained, why it was so important to deny those skills to others based purely on tenure. Still haven't gotten a direct reply.
Berrice Silf
Academy of the Imperial Guards
#2070 - 2016-02-12 17:49:13 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Berrice Silf wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
No one is ignoring the effects, you're just exaggerating them to extremes.
If i remember correctly those were the same words you said to me when i stated that all the years of training could be blown out the water with someone just purchasing massive amounts of skill points ShockedPShocked
No, my reply to that was, "Who cares if they do? Skills are capped at lvl V for a reason and only so much SP can be applied to any ship or fit" to paraphrase. I never expected that to be an exaggeration long term, but also consider it not a problem.

I also asked, since our existing training was unaffected and we retained all those abilities gained, why it was so important to deny those skills to others based purely on tenure. Still haven't gotten a direct reply.
Why would someone want to be at a level of a game on day one that someone who has been playing 10 years is at. If this tenure has been a problem then why hasn't the ability to buy your way into the game been bought into play years ago, maybe because its a last ditch attempt to squeeze whats left out of it ??

Over the years the question has been asked about buying / speeding up skill points and been laughed at before being shut down, is something different except a flagging bank balance and sub base.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2071 - 2016-02-12 18:05:20 UTC
Berrice Silf wrote:
Why would someone want to be at a level of a game on day one that someone who has been playing 10 years is at. If this tenure has been a problem then why hasn't the ability to buy your way into the game been bought into play years ago, maybe because its a last ditch attempt to squeeze whats left out of it ??

Over the years the question has been asked about buying / speeding up skill points and been laughed at before being shut down, is something different except a flagging bank balance and sub base.
First, our levels are non-linear and nothing here takes 10 years to get to. Second, because the vast majority of the ships and tools are locked behind SP which is what makes training desired in the first place. Third, not everyone wants to be at the same SP as a 10 year old vet, some just want a boost to one year from 6 months. Others may just want to top off a skill the missed which is now off map.

The whole, "why do you need to be on par with 10 year old characters" is pretty much the type of exaggeration I was trying to point out. It seems most aren't using it for that so much as building a particular competency rather than the multiple competencies gained in 10 years.

The question I'd pose to your doom prediction is "Why, if we're to the point of squeezing what's left out of it" is there still costly active development going on? Why the hardware upgrade? Why does nothing actually match up with that line of thinking yet it still keeps popping up?

Or is squeezing what's left not the intended sentiment? Maybe just supplementing income? Possible, though from CCPs last published financials Eve itself was profitable so unless the numbers dropped significantly more than login activity suggests and we're all just playing more individually to make up for it I don't see why that would change.
galtest12345
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2072 - 2016-02-12 18:07:25 UTC  |  Edited by: galtest12345
First people argue that SP don't matter and that noobs will be tricked into buying it when the reality is that training for the long term is the most satisfying part of the game ..

.. and now people are arguing that if you don't immediately buy your way into every new shiny thing then you'll be left behind!

Which is it, guys? Some people in here are just determined to hate the injectors regardless of what "logic" they implement. It's fine if you hate it, that's fine, but thousands and thousands of them were traded in Jita alone in the last few days. You are the minority.


It might be slightly sad to see Caymus drop off the #1 spot but he'll always be remembered as the guy that trained his way to #1, but perhaps now with him knocked down it'll free up people from thinking or worrying about who has "the most" skillpoints - it's irrelevant now. What is relevant is what you do in the game, what you have fun doing, how you develop and use your brain and social connections. This game is not about watching a number that you cannot really influence beyond a certain point count up anymore. Great!
Berrice Silf
Academy of the Imperial Guards
#2073 - 2016-02-12 19:10:02 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Berrice Silf wrote:
Why would someone want to be at a level of a game on day one that someone who has been playing 10 years is at. If this tenure has been a problem then why hasn't the ability to buy your way into the game been bought into play years ago, maybe because its a last ditch attempt to squeeze whats left out of it ??

Over the years the question has been asked about buying / speeding up skill points and been laughed at before being shut down, is something different except a flagging bank balance and sub base.
First, our levels are non-linear and nothing here takes 10 years to get to. Second, because the vast majority of the ships and tools are locked behind SP which is what makes training desired in the first place. Third, not everyone wants to be at the same SP as a 10 year old vet, some just want a boost to one year from 6 months. Others may just want to top off a skill the missed which is now off map.

The whole, "why do you need to be on par with 10 year old characters" is pretty much the type of exaggeration I was trying to point out. It seems most aren't using it for that so much as building a particular competency rather than the multiple competencies gained in 10 years.

The question I'd pose to your doom prediction is "Why, if we're to the point of squeezing what's left out of it" is there still costly active development going on? Why the hardware upgrade? Why does nothing actually match up with that line of thinking yet it still keeps popping up?

Or is squeezing what's left not the intended sentiment? Maybe just supplementing income? Possible, though from CCPs last published financials Eve itself was profitable so unless the numbers dropped significantly more than login activity suggests and we're all just playing more individually to make up for it I don't see why that would change.

You are the one who always brings up tenure, its like your little twist out mechanism then when responded to you bleet like a lamb with a slit throat ..... make your mind up ty.

I'm not on about doom im talking of pure unadulterated greed by CCP - They offered this garbage and most wanted a change as in reallocation of skills, something to speed up training - We get this heap of shite thats ripped the heart out of a game thats stood by it's principles ..... until now.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2074 - 2016-02-12 19:18:53 UTC
http://massivelyop.com/2016/02/11/eve-online-player-buys-nearly-7000-worth-of-skill-injectors/

Success!

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2075 - 2016-02-12 19:29:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Berrice Silf wrote:
You are the one who always brings up tenure, its like your little twist out mechanism then when responded to you bleet like a lamb with a slit throat ..... make your mind up ty.
Where did I say tenure = 10 years? Please point that out. Why is it that you insist on these false dichotomies? Why is tenure only equal to 10 years now? I've made up my mind, and explained CONSISTANTLY several times what's going on. So how about we stop playing this word game shall we? Tenure isn't just specific numbers of months or years and you know that.

You also know training exclusively took time before so there was absolutely no reason for this little diversion.

Berrice Silf wrote:
I'm not on about doom im talking of pure unadulterated greed by CCP - They offered this garbage and most wanted a change as in reallocation of skills, something to speed up training - We get this heap of shite thats ripped the heart out of a game thats stood by it's principles ..... until now.
We got both of those things. We know their both functioning fine. Now we're complaining that it comes at cost. A higher cost than necessary? IMHO yes, but it's moving along just fine despite that, so most likely my price expectations were completely wrong and the feature as a whole indeed can sustain a higher price point than I anticipated.

And the only principle violated is the one people asked to be violated per your own words. The only change is the inviolability of SP itself. You could already buy people's time, now we have what is simply another method.
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#2076 - 2016-02-12 22:39:14 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dr Caymus has been overtaken on top 1 positions in total SP after 13 years. Just because someone invested some cash / isk.

Thank you CCP for showing us on the very first day of implementing your stupid idea how much efforts, time and money of long lasting customers has been appreciated. Customers who have helped you built everything your game was. Really sends a strong message to existing player base and to potential new players.

Remember the good old days since you wont have them again, karma is a *****.

Edit: And be ashamed of what you have become. I remember CCP which actually had some morale stands and care for customers...

And this just shows those idiots on previous topics how much they lack a clue, since I wrote this will happen and they were all denying it...


Every gamer outside of new eden, on gaming related (media) websites / forums, show in their comments how CCP sucks X

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#2077 - 2016-02-13 00:08:34 UTC
galtest12345 wrote:
First people argue that SP don't matter and that noobs will be tricked into buying it when the reality is that training for the long term is the most satisfying part of the game ..

.. and now people are arguing that if you don't immediately buy your way into every new shiny thing then you'll be left behind!

Which is it, guys? Some people in here are just determined to hate the injectors regardless of what "logic" they implement. It's fine if you hate it, that's fine, but thousands and thousands of them were traded in Jita alone in the last few days. You are the minority.

What do you expect, we're starting from the end and working backwards to figure out which base beliefs are needed to justify the outrage.


galtest12345 wrote:
It might be slightly sad to see Caymus drop off the #1 spot

It's time to riot.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Jenshae Chiroptera
#2078 - 2016-02-13 04:28:25 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Where is the feedback thread for skill injectors?
It's in this month's Accounts Receivable statement.
Already planned for next month after I vote for Xenuria.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Enki Martok
Doomheim
#2079 - 2016-02-13 20:40:45 UTC
Julien Brellier wrote:
Pay-to-win micro transactions creeping into Eve.

A sad day.


Definitely!!!
Faelune
Tous Pour Un
#2080 - 2016-02-13 23:23:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Faelune
Get us back The Fully Sp loss/winning mechanics with and by The Sp thievering robbering smuggling mechanics: in Game ! Face to face! Player vs Player!