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Wardec balancing

First post
Author
Lann Shahni
Elysium Evolutive Industries and Technologie
#1 - 2016-01-17 22:23:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Lann Shahni
This post is a debate on current wardec system in eve!
This is a edit of the topic, tough my idea for a solution has changed, my general opinion that the current wardec system is broken,
And need change is the same!
I have come to believe that a structure based wardec system would be the best solution, where the attacker has to have a structure in space to run a war , and if lost will end any wars carried by that structure!
More details are in the thread! :)

I have let the original message be here below, so comments given makes sense!

I recently returned to eve again, and mw and a few of my irl friends wanted to up a corp together, having fun producing some goods and selling them, and as a start we put a small pos, to get things going, whit in less then a week we got wardec!

After that I started digging a bit into reasons why, and discovered that far most high security wardec are pll wanting steal your stuff!
I don't know if that is the intention with the wardec system, but I think it's sad, and crusing system for any starting or small corp, making it nearly impossible for them, because of constant wardec

I suggest increasing the ridiculously low cost of starting a war from 50 mil to 500mil, and maintaining 50 mil a week for keeping it up!
Also increasing the delay from one day to a week, giving pll whit irl responsibilities a chance to respond!
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
#2 - 2016-01-17 22:27:12 UTC
This will not end well for you.

Secondly as of right now war secs favor the aggressor more than the defender. Though you can hire allies or disband and reform the corp to evade the war dec.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Valkin Mordirc
#3 - 2016-01-17 23:03:49 UTC
There was a thread going on about this just yesterday, It's probably locked. There really should be sticky.
#DeleteTheWeak
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#4 - 2016-01-18 01:12:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
For every wardec against you, you can start more than 30 New corps for the same cost. If wardec costs are ridiculously low then the cost of starting a Corp seriously needs attention.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5 - 2016-01-18 02:41:40 UTC
While I agree that wardecs are broken, I don't feel that extreme costs will resolve the issue.
Also, that other thread, and the thread before it, are still open for postings.

I'm not going to bother putting out any proposals, as I've already done that.

Strategy 1 - don't undock.. Defers will get bored and move on.
Strategy 2 - tease the aggressor with targets opportunity, but fit them with HEAVY warp core stabs. When they arrive, warp out and dock.. This seems to annoy and bore them more, but higher chance of them ending the dec.
Strategy 3 - leave corp/move to NPC corp and reform when dec is over.
Strategy 4 - fold corp and start a new one.

Truthfully, I do think there needs to be a sticky made as well... Though, I often feel that is where ideas go to die...
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#6 - 2016-01-18 02:49:05 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Lann Shahni wrote:


After that I started digging a bit into reasons why, and discovered that far most high security wardec are pll wanting steal your stuff!



Well, golly gosh! Can this truly be?

Someone fetch me my good clutching pearls!

Quote:


having fun producing some goods and selling them, and as a start we put a small pos, to get things going, whit in less then a week we got wardec!


1. Small towers are gross.
2. I'm betting you set up somewhere between zero and no defenses.

Put up at least a medium, harden the resist holes and cover it with ECM/Webbers/Guns/Scrams. Not a lot people bored enough to bother shooting at that.

The only time I've ever had anyone actually shoot at a tower is when, lazy and bored with the game for a spell, I stop fueling it and it goes offline.

Edit: Oh, nevermind. You caught a marmite dec. Marmite decs virtually everyone. They probably don't know you have a tower, they probably don't care enough to shoot at it unless someone explicitly paid them to do so, and you are probably hanging around in a high traffic area looking like juicy targets. They probably won't pursue you. They tend to dec a ton of people, hang out in travel choke points, and let their targets come to them.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#7 - 2016-01-18 04:02:19 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Lann Shahni wrote:


After that I started digging a bit into reasons why, and discovered that far most high security wardec are pll wanting steal your stuff!



Well, golly gosh! Can this truly be?

Someone fetch me my good clutching pearls!

Quote:


having fun producing some goods and selling them, and as a start we put a small pos, to get things going, whit in less then a week we got wardec!


1. Small towers are gross.
2. I'm betting you set up somewhere between zero and no defenses.

Put up at least a medium, harden the resist holes and cover it with ECM/Webbers/Guns/Scrams. Not a lot people bored enough to bother shooting at that.

The only time I've ever had anyone actually shoot at a tower is when, lazy and bored with the game for a spell, I stop fueling it and it goes offline.

Edit: Oh, nevermind. You caught a marmite dec. Marmite decs virtually everyone. They probably don't know you have a tower, they probably don't care enough to shoot at it unless someone explicitly paid them to do so, and you are probably hanging around in a high traffic area looking like juicy targets. They probably won't pursue you. They tend to dec a ton of people, hang out in travel choke points, and let their targets come to them.


For general war decs:

You can anchor resists inside the shields, so when you get decked, take other stuff offline as needed, online the hardeners and have fun watching them try to take down a dickstar (if they even bother).

Also, if you are going to be an industrial corp might want to set up some hauling alts in noob corps. They can run errands for you while you keep busy in station.

For the Marmite dec...SurrenderMonkey is right. Avoid choke point systems, stay out of market hubs, and sit in quiet out of the way systems and you should be fine. They'll drop the wardec after a week.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Iain Cariaba
#8 - 2016-01-18 05:18:11 UTC
Lann Shahni wrote:
I recently returned to eve again, and mw and a few of my irl friends wanted to up a corp together, having fun producing some goods and selling them, and as a start we put a small pos, to get things going, whit in less then a week we got wardec!

After that I started digging a bit into reasons why, and discovered that far most high security wardec are pll wanting steal your stuff!
I don't know if that is the intention with the wardec system, but I think it's sad, and crusing system for any starting or small corp, making it nearly impossible for them, because of constant wardec

I suggest increasing the ridiculously low cost of starting a war from 50 mil to 500mil, and maintaining 50 mil a week for keeping it up!
Also increasing the delay from one day to a week, giving pll whit irl responsibilities a chance to respond!

Shocked

You mean some meany won't let you farm isk in 100% safety in a game where everything is PvP?!?!?!?!?!?!

Roll

It is absurdedly easy to avoid wardecs in EvE, even without reforming corp. I'm not even going to bother listing any of them, as all you have to do is search the forums for the word "wardec" and you'll find how in any of the few thousand identical threads to this one.

Also, reported for redundancy.
Lann Shahni
Elysium Evolutive Industries and Technologie
#9 - 2016-01-18 06:18:02 UTC
Thx for all replay to my post here, both them that agree and those that don't!

This post i'st about my current predicment, we kinda have an ide why that wardec was triggered, long story short over mining in a system!

And for posting dodging a wardec, i'st hard, your kinda right, as long as your is freinds only, and you don't have any structures!
Bim bam thank you mam, new corp and you out of that wardec

it's as soon as you try build something, your are in trouble, constants wardecs on corps trying build up whit pll not knowing each other irl, disbading and reforming them, almost all ways result in lose of member, and have broken it's fair share of corp, that othervise have succeded!

I don't mind that players should have the abillity to decalare war when have good reason, it's then mindless mass wardec that is going rigth now!

Back in 2003 when eve startet 50 mil was a lot of money, so if you decalarede war, it was because you had real bone to pick!
To day far most wars are meaningless, large well preparede pvp corps attacking small defence less corps, for noother reason then that they can!
Leading not to PVP, but anoying and steamrolling players at mass!

I am not saying that what i sugestet is the salution, but it would lead to players only wardec when there is good reason to do so, leading againg to meaningfull wars!
Black Pedro
Mine.
#10 - 2016-01-18 06:46:15 UTC
Lann Shahni wrote:
Back in 2003 when eve startet 50 mil was a lot of money, so if you decalarede war, it was because you had real bone to pick!
To day far most wars are meaningless, large well preparede pvp corps attacking small defence less corps, for noother reason then that they can!
Leading not to PVP, but anoying and steamrolling players at mass!

I am not saying that what i sugestet is the salution, but it would lead to players only wardec when there is good reason to do so, leading againg to meaningfull wars!
How would less wars being declared because of increased cost lead to more "meaningful" wars? There would just be less wars, more safety and less player interaction in highsec.

Back in the beginning it only used to cost 2 million to declare war on another corporation. Further, the technique of folding a corporation for the sole reason of shedding a war was considered an exploit (although there were other ways to shield from and shed a wardec). Wars were never intended to be especially costly or avoidable but rather just the way you went about shooting another group in highsec.

Honestly, if you don't have structures then don't bother with a corporation. You can do everything for the NPC Corp just as efficiently. Or if you are small, then just fold and reform like you did to avoid conflict. The 1M ISK cost is far less than the 50M ISK you cost your opponent.

Wars have issues, but those issue are not going to be solved by just jacking up the cost of declaring them. That will just make aggressors band together even more than they already do to share costs and make most wars even more of a steamroll.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#11 - 2016-01-18 06:55:28 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Lann Shahni wrote:
Thx for all replay to my post here, both them that agree and those that don't!

This post i'st about my current predicment, we kinda have an ide why that wardec was triggered, long story short over mining in a system!

And for posting dodging a wardec, i'st hard, your kinda right, as long as your is freinds only, and you don't have any structures!
Bim bam thank you mam, new corp and you out of that wardec

it's as soon as you try build something, your are in trouble, constants wardecs on corps trying build up whit pll not knowing each other irl, disbading and reforming them, almost all ways result in lose of member, and have broken it's fair share of corp, that othervise have succeded!

I don't mind that players should have the abillity to decalare war when have good reason, it's then mindless mass wardec that is going rigth now!

Back in 2003 when eve startet 50 mil was a lot of money, so if you decalarede war, it was because you had real bone to pick!
To day far most wars are meaningless, large well preparede pvp corps attacking small defence less corps, for noother reason then that they can!
Leading not to PVP, but anoying and steamrolling players at mass!

I am not saying that what i sugestet is the salution, but it would lead to players only wardec when there is good reason to do so, leading againg to meaningfull wars!


Uh, the minimum cost for a wardec used to be a LOT less. Like... 2 million? Something like that? When the minimum went to 50, 50 was still not regarded as a lot of money, and people most certainly were wardeccing "for lulz" the day that patch dropped.

This whole "meaningful war" thing you think you're remembering is a product of your imagination.

Additionally, "I feel like shooting you" is a perfectly good reason, to me, for a wardec.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2016-01-18 06:58:38 UTC
Grab instawarp frigates and get out of there. Have an alt haul other things out. Even a T1 industrial can haul a mining barge (retriever is 3750 m3 packaged). If you know where to look, there are 0.5 and 0.6 sectors far away from the hubs and major trade routes where nobody will bother shooting at you.

If you don't have instawarp-from-station bookmarks, hire someone or use an alt to warp to, then go find a quiet place. Make sure you look for combat scanners on dscan.

Or find their pos/poco (hire a professional scout/use an alt), get some firepower together (yours or rented from someone else), and teach them why they don't want to mess with you (or, more likely, they actually will take an interest in coming after you). If you actually want to blow one up, you're going to need battleships and battleship-sized weapons, cause they have a lot of hitpoints.

Also, jump clones. Before going where there's trouble, leave the body with the shiny implants on a station somewhere.

A signature :o

Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2016-01-18 06:59:26 UTC
Lann Shahni wrote:
meaningfull wars!


I hear that phrase very often these days.

The bottom line is that even if you don't see it, every dec has a reason and is meaningful in it's own way. Whether it's a big corp trying to throw weight around, farm kills (this IS a game you know, people have to have fun somehow), tear down your structures, impede your business to boost their own, force you to fold corp for kicks and giggles, keep you occupied so you can't ally someone else that is about to be wardec'd by someone else, etc.

Point is, when that guy hits the "declare war!" button, he has a reason, even if it is only in his own head, even if it isn't apparent to anyone else. We don't need game mechanics to force a reason for it. We just need to make sure the mechanic works. So far, it works, and that's all that's important.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
Transgress
#14 - 2016-01-18 12:37:15 UTC
Also worth mentioning (and i know this from experiance) that most wardec corps can't actually handle a coordinated defence or being attacked themselves .
You can pay mercenaries to allie in your war , this generally results in the agressors getting their teeth kicked in and/or them refusing to undock for the duration of the war.

You can find the mercs over in the crime and punishment sub forum or in the merc contracts channel ingame.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#15 - 2016-01-18 12:39:19 UTC
Lann Shahni wrote:
we kinda have an ide why that wardec was triggered, long story short over mining in a system!


Almost like your actions have consequences, and being defenseless isn't a supported playstyle.


Quote:

it's as soon as you try build something, your are in trouble, constants wardecs on corps trying build up whit pll not knowing each other irl, disbading and reforming them, almost all ways result in lose of member, and have broken it's fair share of corp, that othervise have succeded!


That's fully intended. Player corps are supposed to deal with wars. If you can't, then you had no business being in one to begin with.

Next time, try building up a balanced corp with players who have proper combat skills and know how to use them, instead of an unbalanced corp full of professional victims, er I mean "industrial players".


Quote:

I don't mind that players should have the abillity to decalare war when have good reason, it's then mindless mass wardec that is going rigth now!


That's not mindless. They have a good reason, they want to kill you.

And in a sandbox, that's all the reason they should ever need.


Quote:

Leading not to PVP, but anoying and steamrolling players at mass!


That IS PvP, whether you like it or not.

Being weak is not allowed in EVE Online. You either get your act together, or you need to accept that your lot in life is to be food for somebody else.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
Transgress
#16 - 2016-01-18 13:38:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Ralph King-Griffin
Ok , upon investigation , the lads you got hit by were
1) nobodys and
2) bad, baaaaaaaad bad bad.

Had ye even been in system with them saying mean things in local their ships would have exploded.
Never mind actually defended the damn pos.

Edit: to clarify, I am not talking about marmite, they're a different matter entirely .
Lann Shahni
Elysium Evolutive Industries and Technologie
#17 - 2016-01-18 16:11:58 UTC
Again thx for the replies! :)
nice to get some feedback

And i agree whit some of to a point, one of the things that makes eve great is that it is a brutal game!
But that said having your theet kicked in ass soon as you pop you head up, does yeald much in the way leaning to play!

And maybi more new and returning players would stay, if they where not brutaly beaten and robbed as they tried starting something!
No matter how much you think it's just, and pll can just learn to play, getting totaly fraqed will make most leave that game,
wich in turn is bad for every one in eve, less player, less money ccd will spend on new stuff for us!
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#18 - 2016-01-18 16:33:11 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Lann Shahni wrote:
Again thx for the replies! :)
nice to get some feedback

And i agree whit some of to a point, one of the things that makes eve great is that it is a brutal game!
But that said having your theet kicked in ass soon as you pop you head up, does yeald much in the way leaning to play!

And maybi more new and returning players would stay, if they where not brutaly beaten and robbed as they tried starting something!
No matter how much you think it's just, and pll can just learn to play, getting totaly fraqed will make most leave that game,
wich in turn is bad for every one in eve, less player, less money ccd will spend on new stuff for us!



But you haven't had your teeth kicked in, nor have you been brutally robbed. Your entire corporation hasn't been on a killboard since APRIL, when they lost what looks to be an offline POS to a helpful band of tower-bashers. You're throwing a fit about the vague threat that your spaceboats MIGHT be violenced.

And as we've already pointed out, given that the wardec in question is from Marmite, it would be quite easy to avoid any real possibility of being shot at. Marmite is effective at blowing things up, but they are also fairly predictable.

If you just moved away from any major trade hubs (and the shortest paths between them), you would likely never even SEE a wartarget.

This entire, "We're helpless newbs being viciously brutalized by an overwhelming force of veterans and there's absolutely nothing we could do about it!" narrative you're presenting is disingenuous, and borders on outright lies.

Tell us what systems you've been operating in. I'd bet 10:1 that they are literally on a pipeline between Jita and Amarr or Jita and Dodixie, or within 5 jumps of any of those endpoints.

Here, look at this image: http://i.imgur.com/uUWOMWq.png

See the line? Go very nearly ANYWHERE in high sec that isn't within five jumps of that line and you will likely escape the notice of absolutely everybody.

There are some vague exceptions, but the point is, "Go find a nice quiet system off the beaten path and you're not likely to catch a wardec from anyone of note."

Additionally, it's one thing to not know basic strategies for defending yourself. That's fine, everyone starts somewhere. However, things turn really obnoxious when, having been informed of the myriad things you could do to resolve the situation yourself, you say, "Well, yeah, okay, I guess I could do that, but instead of me having to do the slightest ******* thing for myself, how about they just change the entire game instead?"

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#19 - 2016-01-18 16:58:05 UTC
Lann Shahni wrote:

But that said having your theet kicked in ass soon as you pop you head up, does yeald much in the way leaning to play!


Except, as Ralph already said, that isn't what happened.

Quote:

And maybi more new and returning players would stay, if they where not brutaly beaten and robbed as they tried starting something!


Except you're wrong. CCP themselves have done studies showing that the players who do experience non consensual PvP early in their game are MORE likely to stay than if they hadn't been killed.

Quote:

No matter how much you think it's just, and pll can just learn to play, getting totaly fraqed will make most leave that game,



See the above. The exact opposite is true.

Want some advice? Stop being helpless.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#20 - 2016-01-18 17:03:45 UTC
Lann Shahni wrote:
Iwe put a small pos


Lann Shahni wrote:
whit in less then a week we got wardec!


Try something a bit larger, it only takes a couple people a short time to pop a small POS.

Lann Shahni wrote:

Also increasing the delay from one day to a week, giving pll whit irl responsibilities a chance to respond!


Sounds like you forgot to stront your tower.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.

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