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Citadel worm hole tax
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Beldantazar
Empyrean Acolytes
#21 - 2016-02-29 20:47:49 UTC
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
My argument against this is, you are still using Isk that means you have some kind of connection to SCC which means they will tax you.


Do you have a game play reason?

Maintaining ISK sinks.


The isk sinks will be maintained by the k space holes as well as potentially lost loot and I highly doubt they will be used enough to subvert the sinks to any significant margin

Loot is not an isk sink. In fact destroyed ships generate isk not remove it


Actually no, only things that actually reward isk directly generate isk. Isk only enters the system through bounties and missions i believe (there may be a couple other sources). Modules, and salvage do not actually generate isk, since you have to sell them to get money, which requires other players to buy them.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#22 - 2016-02-29 21:08:19 UTC
Beldantazar wrote:


Actually no, only things that actually reward isk directly generate isk. Isk only enters the system through bounties and missions i believe (there may be a couple other sources). Modules, and salvage do not actually generate isk, since you have to sell them to get money, which requires other players to buy them.


Insurance. Roll

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Beldantazar
Empyrean Acolytes
#23 - 2016-02-29 21:12:40 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Beldantazar wrote:


Actually no, only things that actually reward isk directly generate isk. Isk only enters the system through bounties and missions i believe (there may be a couple other sources). Modules, and salvage do not actually generate isk, since you have to sell them to get money, which requires other players to buy them.


Insurance. Roll


That's true, i haven't bothered with it for so long i forgot it was even a thing.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#24 - 2016-02-29 22:16:59 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Tbh, what we know about Citadels, the Medium seems perfectly fine.

To me, the reason to have a larger one is to access the AOE defensive weapons, as well as a market.

Mediums can't use AOE weapons, only targeted ones. At the same time, they are only vulnerable for 3 hours each week and will involve attackers being on grid for a minimum of 30 minutes in that 3 hour period (with the start of those vulnerability periods chosen by the defender).

Surely a Corp can defend its Medium Citadel for 3 hours each week, or alternatively 7 hours (large) or 21 hours (X-large) where you gain access to AOE defences as well as targeted?

They are going to be less vulnerable than a POS is now.


But you can't see what's going to drop out of a pos like toy will be if you set up a market. You also won't have randoms inside your pos

You don't have to have randoms inside your Citadel either. You can create a market that is effectively for your own Corp/Alliance/Blues.

Even if your concern is about randoms seeing what is on the market, how does lowering tax address this?


The point is to incentives talking the risk of an open market not a private one

and you would be better off just using contacts for a private one not to risk giving free intel


The "incentive" of setting up a market not only for blue is more sales potential.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#25 - 2016-03-01 01:31:09 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Beldantazar wrote:


Actually no, only things that actually reward isk directly generate isk. Isk only enters the system through bounties and missions i believe (there may be a couple other sources). Modules, and salvage do not actually generate isk, since you have to sell them to get money, which requires other players to buy them.


Insurance. Roll



WH folks don't insure their ships that often. It's just too inconvenient. The norm is to haul them in packaged, unpack them and fit them. There isn't a real opportunity to insure them. Because of mass, effort and so on - folks don't make a trip to HS/LS to insure their stuff.

Insurance should be deleted from the game - period, but that's another subject.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#26 - 2016-03-01 01:36:43 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Tbh, what we know about Citadels, the Medium seems perfectly fine.

To me, the reason to have a larger one is to access the AOE defensive weapons, as well as a market.

Mediums can't use AOE weapons, only targeted ones. At the same time, they are only vulnerable for 3 hours each week and will involve attackers being on grid for a minimum of 30 minutes in that 3 hour period (with the start of those vulnerability periods chosen by the defender).

Surely a Corp can defend its Medium Citadel for 3 hours each week, or alternatively 7 hours (large) or 21 hours (X-large) where you gain access to AOE defences as well as targeted?

They are going to be less vulnerable than a POS is now.


But you can't see what's going to drop out of a pos like toy will be if you set up a market. You also won't have randoms inside your pos

You don't have to have randoms inside your Citadel either. You can create a market that is effectively for your own Corp/Alliance/Blues.

Even if your concern is about randoms seeing what is on the market, how does lowering tax address this?


The point is to incentives talking the risk of an open market not a private one

and you would be better off just using contacts for a private one not to risk giving free intel


The "incentive" of setting up a market not only for blue is more sales potential.


I would argue that the trade off for no space magic when the thing gets blown up in a wh would be that it's a tax free station. For lore reasons we can say that the citadel tax is what buys the space magic for all the other non wh citadels. While I'm at it, since wh citadels don't get space magic, how about you give all of them AOE defenses. Since the risk of a wh citadel is slightly higher (everything in it) compared to a non wh citadel (nothing because space magic) how about adding a benefit to being in a wh - AOE weapons.

I think it would be refreshing if a large corp dropped 100 T3s on my medium citadel that I could fry their bacon instead of just being consumed by numbers. Some folks have gone wh to avoid the large numbers part of eve, it would be nice if ccp threw small gang wh folks a bone and gave them a reasonable defense against large corps.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#27 - 2016-03-01 01:41:25 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
My argument against this is, you are still using Isk that means you have some kind of connection to SCC which means they will tax you.



This is like the dumbest argument ever. Let me lay it out for you...

I buy something at the store - I get taxed.
I buy something from my neighbor - I don't get taxed.

Currency is good for all transactions public (taxed) and private (not taxed). It's actually literally printed on US paper money.

It's always been like that and always will be.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2016-03-01 12:58:53 UTC
There should be no npc tax for citadels in wormhole space. The only tax should be what the corp sets.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Lugh Crow-Slave
#29 - 2016-03-01 13:33:20 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
There should be no npc tax for citadels in wormhole space. The only tax should be what the corp sets.


indeed and since the bonuses given by rigs is done by location it would not be hard to do. i would rather not need to give up a def rig to get this in wh but it would be better than nothing

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Ben Ishikela
#30 - 2016-04-12 12:36:16 UTC
hahaha thats a joke right?
Wormholes are meant to be the most dangerous place, right? Thats why they are so profitable. However it currently manifests itself. imho keep it as risky as possible without impeding anyone too hard.
another angle: Reducing Taxes would (without having to compete with npcs) benefit the fitting providers and suppliers in your corp however. therefor teamsuport=easier. So Yeah! why not?

Ideas are like Seeds. I'd chop fullgrown trees to start a fire.
Tyranis Marcus
Bloody Heathens
#31 - 2016-04-12 20:11:12 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:


They are going to be less vulnerable than a POS is now.


In some respects. Definitely so in respect to the weekly vulnerability windows.

You can, however, put such a hellish amount of ewar on a pos, esp a L, that no one will want to attack it. ECM, webs, scrams, are all weaker on Citadels, not to mention fewer of them can be fit. Far, far fewer.

I'm not saying that's a bad thing or a good thing. It's an important difference, though, and an area where Citadels come up weaker.

Do not run. We are your friends.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#32 - 2016-04-18 22:52:39 UTC
Well CCP has just added rigs being effected by area of space so hears hoping they do add a market rig and they can make WH 0 tax with it.(ofc i would rather not need to lose a rig it would be better than nothing)

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Corvald Tyrska
Valknetra
#33 - 2016-04-19 09:22:33 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
My argument against this is, you are still using Isk that means you have some kind of connection to SCC which means they will tax you.



This is like the dumbest argument ever. Let me lay it out for you...

I buy something at the store - I get taxed.
I buy something from my neighbor - I don't get taxed.

Currency is good for all transactions public (taxed) and private (not taxed). It's actually literally printed on US paper money.

It's always been like that and always will be.


I would see it more that the tax is the cost of having a market interface. If you want to sell something to your neighbor then you setup a contract. Using a market means all of the associated overhead of a shop. You have for a large market thousands of NPC staff involved to handle transfer, storage, maintenance, security and auditing of the items for sale. All through a regulated, market system (hence the SCC involvement). You can bypass all of this and sell to people directly but if you want to interact through a market then you have to pay taxes for the associated upkeep and overhead of maintaining said market, and paying minimum wage to all those NPCs - you don't want a union strike do you?.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#34 - 2016-04-19 09:38:01 UTC
Corvald Tyrska wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
My argument against this is, you are still using Isk that means you have some kind of connection to SCC which means they will tax you.



This is like the dumbest argument ever. Let me lay it out for you...

I buy something at the store - I get taxed.
I buy something from my neighbor - I don't get taxed.

Currency is good for all transactions public (taxed) and private (not taxed). It's actually literally printed on US paper money.

It's always been like that and always will be.


I would see it more that the tax is the cost of having a market interface. If you want to sell something to your neighbor then you setup a contract. Using a market means all of the associated overhead of a shop. You have for a large market thousands of NPC staff involved to handle transfer, storage, maintenance, security and auditing of the items for sale. All through a regulated, market system (hence the SCC involvement). You can bypass all of this and sell to people directly but if you want to interact through a market then you have to pay taxes for the associated upkeep and overhead of maintaining said market, and paying minimum wage to all those NPCs - you don't want a union strike do you?.


My argument against this is I sine how got a submarine in space

Or if we want to go that way why is it I can't take items that were stored in a k-space citadel from its ruble like I can in a wh?

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
sci0gon
Kaira Innovations
#35 - 2016-04-19 11:46:59 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
You don't have to have randoms inside your Citadel either. You can create a market that is effectively for your own Corp/Alliance/Blues.



wouldnt that be a rather small market to have and even then ammo is probably the only thing you'll end up selling if you're in a quiet wormhole with possibly a ship replacement every now and then.
aldhura
Blackjack and Exotic Dancers
Top Tier
#36 - 2016-05-24 04:24:29 UTC
sci0gon wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
You don't have to have randoms inside your Citadel either. You can create a market that is effectively for your own Corp/Alliance/Blues.



wouldnt that be a rather small market to have and even then ammo is probably the only thing you'll end up selling if you're in a quiet wormhole with possibly a ship replacement every now and then.


Even that is not practical. When I was in an higher end wh with lots of chains to get out and we did supply runs, we would just take everyone's order and then they just pay jita prices, this is what corporations do for each other, you know, help, not try and rip each other off by establishing a market in the unknowns.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#37 - 2016-05-24 16:33:14 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
My argument against this is, you are still using Isk that means you have some kind of connection to SCC which means they will tax you.


Do you have a game play reason?



Lugh buys all his drugs with cash. He never pays sales tax. Your argument doesn't make sense in eve or reality.
Sephiroth Clone VII
Brothers of Tyr
Goonswarm Federation
#38 - 2016-06-30 02:18:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Sephiroth Clone VII
One issue about the complaint or idea by author that I dont understand what is wanted, is it no taxes in citadels in wormhole space? What is it currently? Who uses the market in wh's?

The recent time I was in one, give it a small outfit that was only a fraction of a corp we did not even think about using market stuff, or setting up large.

I can see point to having no taxes, no resources need to go to empire faction NPC's the olny expediture would be to any civies and robots running things in citidels moving items from one bay to the other, but mabey that has some to warrent a cost?
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