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Radar sites were nerfed after patch, Why?

Author
namelessclone01
blackbox ops
#41 - 2011-12-15 19:36:28 UTC
i just spent 2 hrs docked in jita and i haven't had any good drops in that timeframe. hell, no drop at all!
explo is surely broken.
Rubinia Valeska
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2011-12-15 20:27:53 UTC
Emperor Salazar wrote:
Plyn wrote:
Or people could just work together. The OP's statement isn't a conclusion, it's a hypothesis.

How about....

Instead of flaming each other when NEITHER side has enough evidence, you combine your evidence and create a result. Every time you run a radar site for the next however long, post the truesec of the system you were in, the number of cans that had stuff, the number of cans that didn't have stuff, and the approximate value of the loot. You can even use alts if you're worried about people knowing your habits. In under a week's time you will have thousands of records from all different areas, and THEN you guys can start arguing about what the numbers mean.



Hell I'd be all for this. I would love to see a giant damn database recorded. Unfortunately this would require explorers to work together (hint: most enjoy solo play/working alone) and sharing data. It would also require an immense amount of trust.

The reason we flame people like the OP is because they have a tiny bad run and immediately decide the game is broken and its time to come to the forums to rage post about how CCP is unfair and exploration is no longer worth doing. The burden of proof in these discussions is on the OP in order to generate a valid discussion. As I said in another post, none of us want exploration to be broken, and thus if there is reasonable evidence of a problem, then we will address it with concern. Unfortunately, people like the OP never present this. They provide anecdotal observations because they are e-mad, thus the responses we see in this thread.

People white knighting them does not help.

When I came to the game I checked the wiki for drop rates and sources of items and was amazed to not find aynthing about that.
I was used to it from other games.
I dont know what you would gain from hiding that in this game.
It's not like you wont run a site that drops expensive items just because you do not know what exactly can drop and by what probability.
Unfortunately the interface also doesnt allow easy collecting of this data so you would have to enter it manually.
But if such a project ever gets started I'd be interested to join.
Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#43 - 2011-12-15 20:31:50 UTC
Do other games developers provide the information? Or do the players actually work together? Like I said I would love to see players work on this (I'm pretty sure people have tried evaluating various aspects of exploration, but it usually doesn't amount to much). But I am quite glad that CCP does not release the information. The less information the better. It means players have a bit more work to do.

We have but to do it...
Flakey Foont
#44 - 2011-12-15 20:37:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Flakey Foont
Random can not be compiled.

Unlike "the fleet slippers of Zambo" in some elf game, the drops are random.
Dztrgovac
#45 - 2011-12-15 21:06:22 UTC
Flakey Foont wrote:
Random can not be compiled.

Unlike "the fleet slippers of Zambo" in some elf game, the drops are random.



Has this ever been actually said by devs? Has it ever in 8 years of EVE's life been said "exploration loot doesn't have ANY behind the scenes drop tables and is completely random"?

Loot tables exist, it can't be completely random. 4/10 plex has to drop C-type [prefix]um loot and faction stuff. It can not drop any deadscape and faction stuff; but if it drops deadspace it has to drop loot of its own type. Faction gear is likely also restricted; I don't think a 4 (or 5 or 6) type plex can drop faction BS modules.

2manno Rockland
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2011-12-15 21:14:12 UTC
i do a fair amount of exploration in low sec (that is 1-5 systems/day) and have noticed a significant reduction in the value of the average radar site as well.

it seems they're actually worth about what the average mag site has been buffed to. $1.5 - $5 mil.
Flakey Foont
#47 - 2011-12-15 23:02:59 UTC
The only thing I've noticed lately is a noticeable dearth of radar sites. But those I've found still yield 4 or 5 operations manuals or the like. Hardly 1.5m isk.
Aine Morchet
Beautiful Space
#48 - 2011-12-15 23:41:55 UTC
Emperor Salazar wrote:
Do other games developers provide the information? Or do the players actually work together? Like I said I would love to see players work on this (I'm pretty sure people have tried evaluating various aspects of exploration, but it usually doesn't amount to much). But I am quite glad that CCP does not release the information. The less information the better. It means players have a bit more work to do.

We have but to do it...


It is player compiled. And I was a little surprised when I came to eve and such a thing was not available. But eve is...different. More real? Less gamelike? For some reason the idea of compiling droprates and staring the fact that this is a videogame in the face seems less appropriate here than in WoW (where Blizzard makes everything extremely 'gamelike', as it's doing with D3).


PS: Here's my anecdotal radar experience postpatch: plenty of sites, no site less than 5m, average 10m, combination hisec lowsec (about 50/50).
Rubinia Valeska
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2011-12-15 23:57:21 UTC
Flakey Foont wrote:
Random can not be compiled.

Unlike "the fleet slippers of Zambo" in some elf game, the drops are random.

No drops are not random and I have no idea why you would say such.
Each site in eve has a certain item pool and range of number per items it can drop.
For instance in radar sites you will only see racial specific decryptors, data cores, tool blueprint, tool materials and such.
This makes the item pool per site pretty small.
The names just differ from that elf game of yours.
Rubinia Valeska
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2011-12-16 00:07:35 UTC
Emperor Salazar wrote:
Do other games developers provide the information? Or do the players actually work together? Like I said I would love to see players work on this (I'm pretty sure people have tried evaluating various aspects of exploration, but it usually doesn't amount to much). But I am quite glad that CCP does not release the information. The less information the better. It means players have a bit more work to do.

We have but to do it...

In Wow the info can easily collected by UI addons and uploaded to web sites such as wowhead.
This makes it easy to gather large sample sizes.
Since players have access to the official test server the loot pool is mostly available when the content goes live.

In Final Fantasy XI the info the game gives you is pretty much non existant.
The players have to band together to discover stuff even game mechanics for themselves.
For item drops this has never been a problem though.
Most items worth anything are either crafted or dropped by one specific source in the game.
Normal monsters rarely drop items other than crafting materials.
So its pretty easy to compile the source of an item that matters.
As to the probability, lets just say, if you want it you either buy it if you can
or grind as long as you need to get the item.
Flakey Foont
#51 - 2011-12-16 01:03:07 UTC
Rubinia Valeska wrote:
Flakey Foont wrote:
Random can not be compiled.

Unlike "the fleet slippers of Zambo" in some elf game, the drops are random.

No drops are not random and I have no idea why you would say such.
Each site in eve has a certain item pool and range of number per items it can drop.
For instance in radar sites you will only see racial specific decryptors, data cores, tool blueprint, tool materials and such.
This makes the item pool per site pretty small.
The names just differ from that elf game of yours.



Forgive me. Within the item pool in each type of site, the drops are random, including zero.
Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#52 - 2011-12-16 01:31:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Emperor Salazar
Flakey Foont wrote:
Rubinia Valeska wrote:
Flakey Foont wrote:
Random can not be compiled.

Unlike "the fleet slippers of Zambo" in some elf game, the drops are random.

No drops are not random and I have no idea why you would say such.
Each site in eve has a certain item pool and range of number per items it can drop.
For instance in radar sites you will only see racial specific decryptors, data cores, tool blueprint, tool materials and such.
This makes the item pool per site pretty small.
The names just differ from that elf game of yours.



Forgive me. Within the item pool in each type of site, the drops are random, including zero.


We don't know how drops are chosen. All we know is that there are drop tables. It seems like some items are more rare than others but this may simply be our primal WANT MORE ISK.

I personally think each item has a 1 in something chance to drop, depending on what its possibly dropping from. I think it does some calculation like "how many items will drop", then based on that amount, goes through the loot table and picks the items seemingly randomly. But the items would be "weighted," so faction modules would have much less weight than deadspace modules and some deadspace modules may be weighted less than others, thus introducing their drop rate.

So in theory, when the overseer npc/structure is destroyed, first the amount of items would be established and then which items to drop would be established based on their weights. To simplify things, Item A may have a 70% chance, Item B a 25% chance and Item C a 5% chance. So if when you destroy it and its decided the drop will be 2 items, you will have a good chance at Item A and Item B, with a very small chance that one of them might be Item C instead. And then there might be the rare occasion that Item B and C get chosen.

Just my theory on it.
Mnemosyne Gloob
#53 - 2011-12-16 02:19:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Mnemosyne Gloob
Emperor Salazar wrote:
So in theory, when the overseer npc/structure is destroyed


I think it is calculated earlier, because you can cargo scan overseers and look what they hold.

Otherwise i approve on the direction this thread is headed. :)

[edit]oh and i think THEY are watching deadspace market on whatever terms, so if say the c-type boosters go down in price a lot because many are found the droprates will be slightly adjusted. Might just be superstition on my part tho.[/edit]
Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#54 - 2011-12-16 02:35:53 UTC
Oh I forgot about the scanning method. Either way, theory could still apply, albeit with modification as to when that stuff is determined.
Czeris
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#55 - 2011-12-16 10:09:16 UTC
It is sad to hear that they nerfed the Radar sites, but keep your chin up, for I have good news!

I ran a Dread Guristas Fleet Staging Point for the first time since the patch and it dropped 500 million isk! This is 400 million more than the two I ran before the patch!

This huge buff I think more than offsets the clear nerf to Radar sites.

Unfortunately I also started drinking and let some guy in a Machariel pop my pod when I forgot it was my good clone. Nerf Machariels!
2manno Rockland
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2011-12-16 15:18:40 UTC
Aine Morchet wrote:

PS: Here's my anecdotal radar experience postpatch: plenty of sites, no site less than 5m, average 10m, combination hisec lowsec (about 50/50).


hmmm. that's what radar sites were for me pre-crucible.

maybe it's just my region then, or an unusually long spout of really bad luck. i haven't had a radar site drop more than $5mm yet (frankly not even $5mm). yesterday was radar drop fail again :/

also like Flakey Foont said above, thus far they seem to be more rare as well.
Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#57 - 2011-12-16 15:44:07 UTC
dry spells in drops and site spawning?

SAY IT ISNT SO
OllieNorth
Recidivists Incorporated
#58 - 2011-12-16 16:20:42 UTC
I am seriously tempted to just start an exploration log to post online with the drops from sites I run. I would like to see how it all goes over time (hint: it will even out). Then I would be able to just link that to every one of these threads.
St Mio
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2011-12-16 16:48:12 UTC
I don't usually do Radar sites but, in the name of science, I contribute the following:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgyYH4Hyu_cZdDNsTUdkckZpSGYwa215X2NCS3k5c0E
Rubinia Valeska
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2011-12-17 12:26:07 UTC
Flakey Foont wrote:

Forgive me. Within the item pool in each type of site, the drops are random, including zero.

I think you should read up on statistics(science to interpret large data sets) and stochastics (part of mathematics dealing with random numbers or probabilities).
There are quite a few things that could be learned from doing this.
An estimate of a site's value, drop rate of specific items within a site, maybe even the rules that are used to determine what drops and in which quantities.