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Adding a Clear Visual Cue to Wormhole Mass Stages
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Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#1 - 2016-01-02 23:30:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Thor Kerrigan
As it is right now, the visual "cue" we have is a one-time shrinking animation when a mass threshold is reached. However, with no reference point, it is impossible to tell the mass stage without actually showing info on it.

Up until the last patch, there actually was a sound cue (the RRRHHHHH... RRRRHHHHH... annoying breathing sound) when more than 50% of mass was reduced but appears to have been removed now.

Since an "end-of-life" hole has a clear flickering animation, size restrictions are colour-coded, WH classes have specific nebulae backgrounds, it would make sense that the final piece of vital information about a wormhole should also be clearly accessible without needing to right-click + show info. As it stands now, all of the above are nice eye-candy rendered irrelevant since anyone travelling through still has to show info in order to check the mass situation.

What I propose is the following:

Mass more than 50% (stable) - no special animation
Mass less than 50% (disrupted, not critical yet) - slight, sporadic yellow-ish lightnings emanating from the wormhole
Mass less than 10% (critical, verge of collapse) - regular, red-hued lightnings indicating imminent collapse

I believe this would make for a much more immersive and intuitive experience when travelling through wormhole space, and the good old "show info" still remains to learn about the visual cue for new players.

Also, while we are at it, the nebulae for C1 and C2 are very difficult to distinguish... Which usually is not an issue since regular hole connection will be green (C1) or white (C2), but the blue frigate-only wormholes make this distinction very difficult. I therefore suggest adding a slight blue-ish stripe to C1s similar to the dark purple one found in C3s.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#2 - 2016-01-03 17:07:10 UTC
-1

+1 to remove ALL indicators of the amount of mass that has moved through a worm hole leaving only the total mass allowed.

Why - simple worm holes are supposed to be ventures into the un-known and the un-predictable .
With all of the information available in game and on the web there is not much unknown about a worm hole.
And with all the animations, sounds and indicators we have there is not much about them that is un-predictable. And yes I am aware that the information is available now in game and all you want is to make it more easily accessible and the answer is still no, it stays where it is until they remove it completely.
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#3 - 2016-01-03 23:03:28 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
-1

+1 to remove ALL indicators of the amount of mass that has moved through a worm hole leaving only the total mass allowed.

Why - simple worm holes are supposed to be ventures into the un-known and the un-predictable .
With all of the information available in game and on the web there is not much unknown about a worm hole.
And with all the animations, sounds and indicators we have there is not much about them that is un-predictable. And yes I am aware that the information is available now in game and all you want is to make it more easily accessible and the answer is still no, it stays where it is until they remove it completely.


- I fail to see how this makes the game more enjoyable.

- Wormholes already have "fun" unpredictable factors to them: no local, +/- 10% mass allowed, uncontrollable nature of the connections.

- Requiring players to right click + show info does not make the game more fun or unpredictable.

- I would also ask myself the question whether what you are proposing instead result in people using wormholes more? I mean, I hope the point of a feature in a game is to make it enjoyable to experience.

- If wormholes need more unpredictability to them, I am all for it actually, as long as it is done in a enjoyable way. But this would be a different subject for another thread.
Netan MalDoran
Cathedral.
Shadow Cartel
#4 - 2016-01-04 16:49:41 UTC
-1 To OP, we hav an info button anyways, and not too many people memorize all of the different WH's, however the current way does add some nice graphics though.

Annnnd -10 to Donnachadh, that would be hell for us wormholers, its such a bad idea, theres PLENTY thats unstable in a WH.

"Your security status has been lowered." - Hell yeah it was!

Falcon's truth
Darth Squeemus
Doomheim
#5 - 2016-01-04 17:31:24 UTC
I agree and disagree with OP here. It would make sense that an unstable wormhole would have some sort of visual indication of instability. However, since wormholes are intended to be unpredictable, I feel like they would be more exciting if the ONLY thing we had were visual queues. And I think that some of the visual queues should be removed. I think it's kind of silly that you can predict and plan your way through a network that is supposed to be randomized. If you want to find a specific class of wormhole, f*king FIND it.

Get rid of the class-specific nebulae that indicate what class wh you're about to jump into and what size ship is allowed to jump through. Want to jump a BS through but don't know if it will fit? Give it a try. If you can't jump through in a BS, then you just found your answer. BM the wh, head home, and grab a smaller ship, or go look for a wh that a BS can fit through. The only visual indicator that I agree with is something to indicate the stability of the wh, and I don't think colors are the way to go. Eve has enough god dang colors as it is, especially with the EPIC new map. Instead, I would like to see wormholes ripple and/or gyrate in some fashion in accordance with their stability. A new and stable wh will ripply/gyrate calmly with sort of a sense of tranquility. As the wh destabilizes, the ripple/gyration animation should become more rapid and turbulent, until it finally collapses. Personally, I would find it a lot more fun to venture into wh's if there was less information available to me about them. I enjoy the excitement of not knowing what I'm getting myself into.

As a secondary thought, it might also be nifty to add a little bit of a shock wave that radiates from the wh when it collapses, causing damage to any ships or deployables that are within a certain range, though not critical damage. Not to actual ships anyway. Just a little chip off of the shields, depending of course on the size of the ship and how much tank it has. After all, the Eve Gate released a pretty nasty shock wave when it collapsed, powerful enough to devastate entire planets. Obviously the Eve Gate was an enormous wh, but it would make sense that smaller wh's would have a similar effect on a smaller scale. Of course I'm sure there are several flaws with this idea, so please feel free to rip it apart. It's just a thought.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#6 - 2016-01-04 17:43:34 UTC
No

Click the wh
Clidk the show info button
Read the message

After you've done it a few hundred times - your eyes will automatically see the 2 words you need to see.

Good god man - it's just 2 clicks. If 2 clicks is too much for you - the rest of wh space stuff is going to push you out soon enough anyway.
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#7 - 2016-01-04 21:41:10 UTC
Okay but hold on here... Are you guys telling me you actually play in WH space on a regular basis and ALL your members map the chains without leadership needing to provide some kind of incentive or reminder?

I understand that for a select few, showing info hundreds of times or, god forbid, you actually have to come back and polarize yourself halfway through mapping a chain to grab a different class ship is acceptable. However, whether big or small WH group, from my experience the biggest turn off for most existing and potential members is the daily mapping of our chains.

If wormhole connections were random but stayed open for days, I can understand the argument that less info is better while mapping. With the current system, chains are already open for max 24 hours... And with timers being random as well, a solid chain usually lasts for about 4-6 hours before you know half your chain is usually gone by this point.

This is why I believe that whatever cues could be helpful and make mapping less tedious once your are doing it on a daily basis would only make WH space more attractive to players.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#8 - 2016-01-04 21:50:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Cidanel Afuran
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
Okay but hold on here... Are you guys telling me you actually play in WH space on a regular basis and ALL your members map the chains without leadership needing to provide some kind of incentive or reminder?


Yes...

Why would you keep members around who can't follow simple rules like that? I'm far from leadership (so I'm not putting words in their mouth), but if I didn't BM every sig and keep mapping software up to date when scanning/scouting, I would deserve to be kicked out of the alliance
DrysonBennington
Eagle's Talon's
#9 - 2016-01-05 01:33:51 UTC
For a stable wormhole nothing would be seen but as the wormhole becomes more unstable it would appear to be compressed with various parts of the wormhole protruding or bulging out of the sphere itself.
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#10 - 2016-01-05 03:29:53 UTC
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
Okay but hold on here... Are you guys telling me you actually play in WH space on a regular basis and ALL your members map the chains without leadership needing to provide some kind of incentive or reminder?


Yes...

Why would you keep members around who can't follow simple rules like that? I'm far from leadership (so I'm not putting words in their mouth), but if I didn't BM every sig and keep mapping software up to date when scanning/scouting, I would deserve to be kicked out of the alliance


I was not asking if the BMs were done right, that's a whole other story. I was talking about the scanning even getting started. Surely you feel you do you share, as every member does... But even the most dedicated of scanners come to a point where the work starts becoming too tedious... Due to those little "insignificant" right clicks, it just adds up faster until you stop scanning.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#11 - 2016-01-05 06:11:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Cidanel Afuran
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
I was not asking if the BMs were done right, that's a whole other story. I was talking about the scanning even getting started. Surely you feel you do you share, as every member does... But even the most dedicated of scanners come to a point where the work starts becoming too tedious... Due to those little "insignificant" right clicks, it just adds up faster until you stop scanning.


Sorry, I wasn't clear. If the chain isn't scanned down and someone logs in, there isn't any reason for them to not scan it down. That's part of the deal living here....
Netan MalDoran
Cathedral.
Shadow Cartel
#12 - 2016-01-05 06:48:28 UTC
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
Okay but hold on here... Are you guys telling me you actually play in WH space on a regular basis and ALL your members map the chains without leadership needing to provide some kind of incentive or reminder?


Yes and yes, my corp lives in a c3.

I found that Tripwire is a very easy to use and a very nice WH mapping tool which is automatically distributed and updated throughout corp.

"Your security status has been lowered." - Hell yeah it was!

Falcon's truth
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#13 - 2016-01-05 06:49:48 UTC
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
I was not asking if the BMs were done right, that's a whole other story. I was talking about the scanning even getting started. Surely you feel you do you share, as every member does... But even the most dedicated of scanners come to a point where the work starts becoming too tedious... Due to those little "insignificant" right clicks, it just adds up faster until you stop scanning.


Sorry, I wasn't clear. If the chain isn't scanned down and someone logs in, there isn't any reason for them to not scan it down. That's part of the deal living here....


Makes sense, but what makes you stop scanning the infinite chain? What makes you decide "That's enough" if not the tedious smaller things that add up?

The idea is that no matter what visual cue you see on a hole, you 99% of the time must show info for a mas indication (the exception being a freshly rolled static). What people seem to be saying is this is somewhat better than not having to do so?

- Imagine having to show info on every rat or player you shot at... You actually can and most new players will if they want to learn a new ship's attributes, but then you end up memorizing it all so you don't have to.
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#14 - 2016-01-05 06:52:36 UTC
Netan MalDoran wrote:
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
Okay but hold on here... Are you guys telling me you actually play in WH space on a regular basis and ALL your members map the chains without leadership needing to provide some kind of incentive or reminder?


Yes and yes, my corp lives in a c3.

I found that Tripwire is a very easy to use and a very nice WH mapping tool which is automatically distributed and updated throughout corp.


Tried it, as well as Siggy and Vippy. None save me the hassle of having to show info on every hole to figure out the mass situation.
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#15 - 2016-01-05 07:20:48 UTC
Great idea OP +1

I hate that roaring noise !

"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#16 - 2016-01-05 14:54:30 UTC
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
- I fail to see how this makes the game more enjoyable.

I guess you need to define "fun". According to CCP and their promo's about worm holes the "fun" is supposed to be that they represent the great unknown parts of EvE, unknown destinations, unknown affects on your ships, unknown resources that may be found there and the list goes on. The problem is there is nothing unknown about a worm hole for those who care to look, listen and read. Between the in game clues and the vast wealth of information available on the internet the only unknown about a worm hole is where it's connections will lead and that in my mind does not qualify for being the great unknown. By removing "all" visual and sound indicators of the class of the worm hole, it's affects on ships, the connections mass limit and the amount of mass that has already gone through CCP would introduce a little bit more of the unknown into the worm hole game play and that would bring back a lot of the fun some of us had hoped worm holes would bring, you know us exploration types that like to venture into the great unknown and figure out what is there.

Thor Kerrigan wrote:
- Wormholes already have "fun" unpredictable factors to them: no local, +/- 10% mass allowed, uncontrollable nature of the connections.

Local is irrelevant in a worm hole, corps with any brains have scan characters out watching things as well as character watching the entrances when they are active, at least we always did and it was a rare situation that someone would get into the hole without us knowing about it even with no local.

Thor Kerrigan wrote:
- Requiring players to right click + show info does not make the game more fun or unpredictable.

You are right about this and that is why these indicators need to be removed. It removes the right click show info hassle you are complaining about AND it would add back in a little of the unpredictable element that CCP claims worm holes are supposed to be about.

Thor Kerrigan wrote:
- I would also ask myself the question whether what you are proposing instead result in people using wormholes more? I mean, I hope the point of a feature in a game is to make it enjoyable to experience.

Again this all comes back to your definition of "fun". Obviously to you fun is living in your own little extremely predictable small area of the EvE universe where you can make huge amounts of ISK with very little effort all while complaining about the hassles of scanning, book marks and the right click and show info.
To those of us that enjoy exploring the true unknown, something CCP told us worm holes were going to provide they are in fact just as boring and worthless as every other region of space so there is no "fun" to them.

So Thor Kerrigan since we disagree on the definition of fun in EvE I will offer this.
When CCP figures out how to remove the right click and show info on EVERYTHING in the game then you will have this.
Until that time you will have to suffer through the same right click and show info crap that every other player in the game has to deal with, because you worm hole folks are not special and you do not deserve special treatment.
Siobhan MacLeary
Doomheim
#17 - 2016-01-05 22:07:10 UTC
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
As it is right now, the visual "cue" we have is a one-time shrinking animation when a mass threshold is reached. However, with no reference point, it is impossible to tell the mass stage without actually showing info on it.

Up until the last patch, there actually was a sound cue (the RRRHHHHH... RRRRHHHHH... annoying breathing sound) when more than 50% of mass was reduced but appears to have been removed now.

Since an "end-of-life" hole has a clear flickering animation, size restrictions are colour-coded, WH classes have specific nebulae backgrounds, it would make sense that the final piece of vital information about a wormhole should also be clearly accessible without needing to right-click + show info. As it stands now, all of the above are nice eye-candy rendered irrelevant since anyone travelling through still has to show info in order to check the mass situation.

What I propose is the following:

Mass more than 50% (stable) - no special animation
Mass less than 50% (disrupted, not critical yet) - slight, sporadic yellow-ish lightnings emanating from the wormhole
Mass less than 10% (critical, verge of collapse) - regular, red-hued lightnings indicating imminent collapse

I believe this would make for a much more immersive and intuitive experience when travelling through wormhole space, and the good old "show info" still remains to learn about the visual cue for new players.

Also, while we are at it, the nebulae for C1 and C2 are very difficult to distinguish... Which usually is not an issue since regular hole connection will be green (C1) or white (C2), but the blue frigate-only wormholes make this distinction very difficult. I therefore suggest adding a slight blue-ish stripe to C1s similar to the dark purple one found in C3s.


A mass-based visual effect is already ingame - the wormhole "model" shrinks when the wormhole is at half-mass and again when it is VoC. The "breathing" effect also still exists ingame so far as I am aware, you may want to adjust the advanced volume sliders.

That said - I'm not against having some sort of special intermittent visual effect for wormhole mass percentage, as it is a little hard to memorize the visual size of each stage especially since we often play at varying zoom levels.

“Point out to me a person who has been harmed by an AFK cloaker and I will point out a person who has no business playing this game.” - CCP Soundwave
Darth Squeemus
Doomheim
#18 - 2016-01-05 22:43:14 UTC
I'm sorry, I think your actual complaint evaded me. Let me get this straight. You mean to tell us that you started a new topic because you don't like having to open an info window? You must be trolling... I refuse to believe that there are Eve players who, with all of the clicking that Eve requires, actually have legitimate complaints about having to make two extra clicks to get a piece of useful information that by all rights shouldn't even be available anyway.

You really have no ground to stand on with this complaint. Sure it makes sense that, with such advanced technology available, pilots should be able to do some sort of scan on WHs to acquire this information. You should be happy that CCP gave you such an easy method to acquire information rather than forcing you to participate in some sort of minigame to get the information you're looking for.
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#19 - 2016-01-06 02:43:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Thor Kerrigan
Darth Squeemus wrote:
I'm sorry, I think your actual complaint evaded me. Let me get this straight. You mean to tell us that you started a new topic because you don't like having to open an info window? You must be trolling... I refuse to believe that there are Eve players who, with all of the clicking that Eve requires, actually have legitimate complaints about having to make two extra clicks to get a piece of useful information that by all rights shouldn't even be available anyway.

You really have no ground to stand on with this complaint. Sure it makes sense that, with such advanced technology available, pilots should be able to do some sort of scan on WHs to acquire this information. You should be happy that CCP gave you such an easy method to acquire information rather than forcing you to participate in some sort of minigame to get the information you're looking for.


I am not trolling, I my point is proven legitimate if you only imagine having to show info on every target you try to F1 on. I believe you to be trolling if after this, you argue it would be better for the game to actually add MORE of it.

EDIT - I am actually proposing two things, which simply improves what already exists in the game and delivers on mostly all of it, except the two things I mentioned.
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#20 - 2016-01-06 03:08:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Thor Kerrigan
Donnachadh wrote:

According to CCP and their promo's about worm holes the "fun" is supposed to be that they represent the great unknown parts of EvE, unknown destinations, unknown affects on your ships, unknown resources that may be found there and the list goes on.
[...]


Okay so you basically explain how the fun you are getting is different from mine, based on CCP's - quotation I am guessing - words which you interpret. That's fine, we all have our hopes and dreams when venturing into a new area.

Then you go on how, although these things were implemented by CCP in the first place, there is a bunch of indicators, sounds, colours, etc. that reveal too much information for the play style you are looking for.

You also show surprise that players find ways to mold and adapt to this apparent lack of intel by the use of third party programs, using scouts and god forbid, go read some guide on the internet. Which, by the way, players will always end up doing anyways.

Your whole argument falls flat if your interpretation of CCP's goal for wormholes is wrong. I based my idea on what is actually in the game already, implemented not only by those who dream up scenarios at CCP but also those responsible for game balance and fun content generation. I am thinking that if these things were not supposed to be there in the first place, CCP had plenty of time to adjust them since Apocrypha... And as a matter of fact, they instead went completely the opposite way of what you would want.

So unfortunately, I won't have to wait for anything that satisfies your personal play style as it seems is of no concern to me or CCP. Don't get me wrong though, your input is very appreciated as it does provide an interesting counter-argument for what I thought would be an obvious "must-have".

Finally, since you seem so concerned about the validity of my presence in WH space, which you borderline outright disregard as being illegitimate, I can tell you I get plenty of my "unknown" share by getting a different chain every day. I let Bob decide where our fleet will travel - all I ask for is not having to get carpal tunnel while doing so.
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