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Strategic Cruisers - specifically what fixes they need
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oohthey ioh
Doomheim
#141 - 2016-01-10 09:35:38 UTC
Keep the t2 resistance, but only on some supsystem, and the supsystem that has high resistance have an disadvantage to retrieving remote reps, mak8 ng them forcing different stats for fleet pvp and solo.

And keep it so they have more then one bouse, but add some disadvantages to the subsystem.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#142 - 2016-01-10 13:26:06 UTC
I would also add altering the Ewar subs to be stronger than the recon variants but with no range bonuse similar to the rr subsystems

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lugh Crow-Slave
#143 - 2016-01-10 13:28:41 UTC
oohthey ioh wrote:
Keep the t2 resistance, but only on some supsystem, and the supsystem that has high resistance have an disadvantage to retrieving remote reps, mak8 ng them forcing different stats for fleet pvp and solo.

And keep it so they have more then one bouse, but add some disadvantages to the subsystem.

You would be better off giving one sub the higher resists but lower potential ehp making reps more effective on them but weakening them to alpha

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#144 - 2016-01-10 14:26:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
I really should update my T3 Curiser revision to a more updates thought process and post it (or link it).
Proteus Revamp
Here is one of the ways I think the Proteus could be rebalanced. It is treated as a cruiser and while it has some basic stats it is by no means what the exact numbers would be. Comments have been added to show what my proposed bonuses are.
Also to encourage training the base hull skill it modifies how effective the sub systems are and the subsystems are adjusted to reflect this. So the base hull skill reads:

5% reduction in heat damage to modules Per level
10% to the Effectiveness of subsystems per level

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#145 - 2016-01-11 03:50:55 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
oohthey ioh wrote:
Keep the t2 resistance, but only on some supsystem, and the supsystem that has high resistance have an disadvantage to retrieving remote reps, mak8 ng them forcing different stats for fleet pvp and solo.

And keep it so they have more then one bouse, but add some disadvantages to the subsystem.

You would be better off giving one sub the higher resists but lower potential ehp making reps more effective on them but weakening them to alpha

That's what I was going to say.

Give some subs T2 resists, but lower their base HP far enough that when omni-tanked they will have lower EHP than with the T1 resist subs. The T2 resist subs could get higher EHP when focusing tank toward 1-2 damage types that they have the resist bonus for, esp. in PVE where you can know what kind of damage is coming in.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Lugh Crow-Slave
#146 - 2016-01-12 05:27:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
oohthey ioh wrote:
Keep the t2 resistance, but only on some supsystem, and the supsystem that has high resistance have an disadvantage to retrieving remote reps, mak8 ng them forcing different stats for fleet pvp and solo.

And keep it so they have more then one bouse, but add some disadvantages to the subsystem.

You would be better off giving one sub the higher resists but lower potential ehp making reps more effective on them but weakening them to alpha

That's what I was going to say.

Give some subs T2 resists, but lower their base HP far enough that when omni-tanked they will have lower EHP than with the T1 resist subs. The T2 resist subs could get higher EHP when focusing tank toward 1-2 damage types that they have the resist bonus for, esp. in PVE where you can know what kind of damage is coming in.



Problem I see worth t2 resists is it detracts from the adaptive nature of the T3 I think there should be a resist sub with lower ehp than the buffer sub period as not to pidgin hole them into one resist profile

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#147 - 2016-01-13 09:13:45 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Daniela Doran wrote:

And if CCP upgrades their status to the BC class, what would be the argument then?


Nerf them to be BC. No matter how you class them they need a hefty nerf in several areas, most noticeably in tank. If they stay as cruisers (and they will)then they need to lose the massive buffer coupled with t2 resists, lose some fitting room so you have to make hard choices like every other cruiser, lose a chunk of the capacitor capability so they cant be easily made to be cap stable and remove the ability to have both the cov ops cloak and nullification ability at the same time. The issues with their boosting thankfully is getting dealt with via the OGB removal.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#148 - 2016-01-13 21:30:15 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:

And if CCP upgrades their status to the BC class, what would be the argument then?


Nerf them to be BC. No matter how you class them they need a hefty nerf in several areas, most noticeably in tank. If they stay as cruisers (and they will)then they need to lose the massive buffer coupled with t2 resists, lose some fitting room so you have to make hard choices like every other cruiser, lose a chunk of the capacitor capability so they cant be easily made to be cap stable and remove the ability to have both the cov ops cloak and nullification ability at the same time. The issues with their boosting thankfully is getting dealt with via the OGB removal.


not that you're on the csm anymore but any idea when they will rebalance them? and if they will remove rigs altogether

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#149 - 2016-01-14 00:10:10 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
...Problem I see worth t2 resists is it detracts from the adaptive nature of the T3 I think there should be a resist sub with lower ehp than the buffer sub period as not to pidgin hole them into one resist profile


That might be a better approach.

I am however concerned that by all the outcries for nerfs, not everything there is is being considered. And again I have to remind everyone but you that there are unknown areas of space that do mess with your unstoppable tech 3 boat-

- A Legion and A Proteus will have a really bad day in a class 4 and up Pulsar and the almighty tengu will have the worst day of her life in a class 3-6 Magnetar system.

What maybe good for one boat is the fate of another. But please everyone keep ignoring the fineprint of effect wormholes until they effect you and be painfully reminded that it was you that called for the nerf you wanted.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#150 - 2016-01-14 10:51:24 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:

And if CCP upgrades their status to the BC class, what would be the argument then?


Nerf them to be BC. No matter how you class them they need a hefty nerf in several areas, most noticeably in tank. If they stay as cruisers (and they will)then they need to lose the massive buffer coupled with t2 resists, lose some fitting room so you have to make hard choices like every other cruiser, lose a chunk of the capacitor capability so they cant be easily made to be cap stable and remove the ability to have both the cov ops cloak and nullification ability at the same time. The issues with their boosting thankfully is getting dealt with via the OGB removal.


not that you're on the csm anymore but any idea when they will rebalance them? and if they will remove rigs altogether


Never been on the CSMBlink

I wouldn't expect any t3 changes until after the capital changes, likely not before vegas.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#151 - 2016-01-14 13:18:26 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
...Problem I see worth t2 resists is it detracts from the adaptive nature of the T3 I think there should be a resist sub with lower ehp than the buffer sub period as not to pidgin hole them into one resist profile


That might be a better approach.

I am however concerned that by all the outcries for nerfs, not everything there is is being considered. And again I have to remind everyone but you that there are unknown areas of space that do mess with your unstoppable tech 3 boat-

- A Legion and A Proteus will have a really bad day in a class 4 and up Pulsar and the almighty tengu will have the worst day of her life in a class 3-6 Magnetar system.

What maybe good for one boat is the fate of another. But please everyone keep ignoring the fineprint of effect wormholes until they effect you and be painfully reminded that it was you that called for the nerf you wanted.


I though playing in WH was about adapting to your environment. If you can't run tengus, then run something else. For all we know, stuff in WH might need to change anyway after the cap re-balance...
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#152 - 2016-01-14 13:59:59 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
...Problem I see worth t2 resists is it detracts from the adaptive nature of the T3 I think there should be a resist sub with lower ehp than the buffer sub period as not to pidgin hole them into one resist profile


That might be a better approach.

I am however concerned that by all the outcries for nerfs, not everything there is is being considered. And again I have to remind everyone but you that there are unknown areas of space that do mess with your unstoppable tech 3 boat-

- A Legion and A Proteus will have a really bad day in a class 4 and up Pulsar and the almighty tengu will have the worst day of her life in a class 3-6 Magnetar system.

What maybe good for one boat is the fate of another. But please everyone keep ignoring the fineprint of effect wormholes until they effect you and be painfully reminded that it was you that called for the nerf you wanted.


The people that mostly whine about nerfing T3Cs are not Wormholers, they're nullbears.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#153 - 2016-01-14 14:03:48 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:

And if CCP upgrades their status to the BC class, what would be the argument then?


Nerf them to be BC. No matter how you class them they need a hefty nerf in several areas, most noticeably in tank. If they stay as cruisers (and they will)then they need to lose the massive buffer coupled with t2 resists, lose some fitting room so you have to make hard choices like every other cruiser, lose a chunk of the capacitor capability so they cant be easily made to be cap stable and remove the ability to have both the cov ops cloak and nullification ability at the same time. The issues with their boosting thankfully is getting dealt with via the OGB removal.


And just whom do you think would bother to fly these ships if they're reduced to such an unuseful state??
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#154 - 2016-01-14 14:32:50 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
...Problem I see worth t2 resists is it detracts from the adaptive nature of the T3 I think there should be a resist sub with lower ehp than the buffer sub period as not to pidgin hole them into one resist profile


That might be a better approach.

I am however concerned that by all the outcries for nerfs, not everything there is is being considered. And again I have to remind everyone but you that there are unknown areas of space that do mess with your unstoppable tech 3 boat-

- A Legion and A Proteus will have a really bad day in a class 4 and up Pulsar and the almighty tengu will have the worst day of her life in a class 3-6 Magnetar system.

What maybe good for one boat is the fate of another. But please everyone keep ignoring the fineprint of effect wormholes until they effect you and be painfully reminded that it was you that called for the nerf you wanted.


The people that mostly whine about nerfing T3Cs are not Wormholers, they're nullbears.

Are you suggesting that T3 cruisers should be restricted to WH then? It is bad design to keep something OP in 3/4 areas of space to make sure that it is viable in the other 1/4 area.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#155 - 2016-01-14 16:36:09 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Are you suggesting that T3 cruisers should be restricted to WH then? It is bad design to keep something OP in 3/4 areas of space to make sure that it is viable in the other 1/4 area.

I think elitatwo was being sarcastic, and saying that even in W-systems, the only way to give a strategic cruiser a hard time is with a system effect that is counter to their style. Given my personal experience with a class 5 system, I'm inclined to agree. We will never need strategic cruisers be overpowered to run sites that can be run with a small group of tech 1 ships in tech 2 fits.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Lugh Crow-Slave
#156 - 2016-01-14 17:54:25 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
...Problem I see worth t2 resists is it detracts from the adaptive nature of the T3 I think there should be a resist sub with lower ehp than the buffer sub period as not to pidgin hole them into one resist profile


That might be a better approach.

I am however concerned that by all the outcries for nerfs, not everything there is is being considered. And again I have to remind everyone but you that there are unknown areas of space that do mess with your unstoppable tech 3 boat-

- A Legion and A Proteus will have a really bad day in a class 4 and up Pulsar and the almighty tengu will have the worst day of her life in a class 3-6 Magnetar system.

What maybe good for one boat is the fate of another. But please everyone keep ignoring the fineprint of effect wormholes until they effect you and be painfully reminded that it was you that called for the nerf you wanted.


No I don't think they need a nerf exactly just to be rearranged so their power isn't coming from high dps and BB tank.

Make it so their power comes from overheat and flexibility.


However nothing should be balance around wh effects or you are going to wind up with brown ships. Yeah a prot is going to be at a disadvantage in a pulsar against a tengu but that's the point of wh effects, to alter the choice you make in fleet comp and engaging

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#157 - 2016-01-14 21:08:04 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:

And if CCP upgrades their status to the BC class, what would be the argument then?


Nerf them to be BC. No matter how you class them they need a hefty nerf in several areas, most noticeably in tank. If they stay as cruisers (and they will)then they need to lose the massive buffer coupled with t2 resists, lose some fitting room so you have to make hard choices like every other cruiser, lose a chunk of the capacitor capability so they cant be easily made to be cap stable and remove the ability to have both the cov ops cloak and nullification ability at the same time. The issues with their boosting thankfully is getting dealt with via the OGB removal.


not that you're on the csm anymore but any idea when they will rebalance them? and if they will remove rigs altogether


Never been on the CSMBlink

I wouldn't expect any t3 changes until after the capital changes, likely not before vegas.


ah i thought u had, .. u definitely should though u make good points and are active in threads usually.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Abby Silverwind
Demonic Retribution
The Initiative.
#158 - 2016-01-15 00:54:24 UTC
Neuts = T3 death = awesome I don't see a problem.... Bringing that Geddon I no you have stashed in that hanger ;)

Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me;

Your rod and your staff, they comfort me.

Drunk Posting Best Posting
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#159 - 2016-01-15 01:50:09 UTC
Abby Silverwind wrote:
Neuts = T3 death = awesome I don't see a problem.... Bringing that Geddon I no you have stashed in that hanger ;)


T3Cs whiners also hates using heavy neuts.....
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#160 - 2016-01-15 02:10:03 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:

And if CCP upgrades their status to the BC class, what would be the argument then?


Nerf them to be BC. No matter how you class them they need a hefty nerf in several areas, most noticeably in tank. If they stay as cruisers (and they will)then they need to lose the massive buffer coupled with t2 resists, lose some fitting room so you have to make hard choices like every other cruiser, lose a chunk of the capacitor capability so they cant be easily made to be cap stable and remove the ability to have both the cov ops cloak and nullification ability at the same time. The issues with their boosting thankfully is getting dealt with via the OGB removal.


And just whom do you think would bother to fly these ships if they're reduced to such an unuseful state??



my eft warrior skills allowed me to assemble Brutix Navy (hull tanked, 114k of EHP with combined plain DPS 762 points (neutrons+hammers II) no links no imps. And i still not sure that a gank of such Brutix's will outperform a similar gang of armor tanked Proteus's. But downgrading T3C to BC level won't help both classes much.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP