Player Features and Ideas Discussion

The problem with cerbfleets is at a moderate number, they become capable of volleying logi. It's terribly irksome.

Yea but you need a lot of them, however you only need either 50 Proteuses/Cerbs or 15 Lokis to 1 shot a Guardian @ 35k
Missiles have traveltime and you're not 100% synced, because of this you can'T get vollyed by missiles that easy, also never ever fight Cerbs without Firewall :)

Hold on, while I had more time to think about the topic, this is more of a complaint that deadspace and faction modules are making the ships what they do.

Would the same be true if they were all tech 2 fit? No it would not.

I think all of this discussion about the magic "tech 3" is moot because you will have one or more deadspace mods on them to do what they do.
I did try the same approach to get to the bazillions of ehp you folks always talk about and even with high-grade slaves it just wasn't possible - well my Damnation could. It stance to reason all the magic is coming from modules you put on.

I am very sorry to have debunked your claims.

that's kind of what i was basing my earlier post on

Well there are three things that need to be considered with t3's. First is the role, second their abilities, third their stats.

Regarding role.... To be honest they never should have been a cruiser in the first place. Their stats and specs and cost scream battle cruiser.

Assuming they are rebranded as battle cruisers, mass, speed, inertia, etc, all need to be reconfigured.

Regarding ability, assuming they turn into battle cruisers, they could keep their ability to be buffers/links, but the ability to be interdiction nullified needs to be questioned. In addition, their subsystems are too varied to be viable. You could throw out 1/4 of the subsystems and merge their abilities with the left over and have both a stronger subsystem lineup, and less useless subsystems in total.

Regarding stats. The t3's need to be more inline ehp wise with its similar ship brothers (inline with the t1 ships in base ehp not the pirate ships in base ehp. They can be tweaked a bit but if they are in the battle cruiser realm, their speed and application will be more towards how the BC's work.

I think half of the issue with t3's is solely labeling. They are not cruisers. They are battle cruisers.

The fit I linked for a prot was one we have used at a fleet level. Value varies depending on market, but always over a billion on average.

To be fair, there's not a lot left to add to it. One could faction the magstabs and deadspace the hardeners, I suppose.

You haven't debunked anything. The Proteus goes up to a 210k tank without slaves with a mere 750mil, and that's fully fitted. That's half of the 1.5bil everyone keeps claiming they do cost, but those claims are plain wrong. With a starting T2 resist profile coupled with an automatic buffer bonus, T3Cs have no problem reaching outrageous tanks while still falling at a moderate price point. Clearly, ISK cost is not much of a barrier to the T3C gang because alliances still field fleets of hundreds of them at a time on a daily basis, and those alliances even SRP their members losses! You can't possibly tell me, "Oh yea, well ISK balances it!" ISK has never balanced anything. When nano-HACs were a thing, they cost in the upwards of the 1-1.5bil price mark too, but they were still cancer and they still had to be nerfed. Throwing money at ship's to make them uncatchable and unkillable is not a good thing for this game and it never has been. When Angel ships were all the rage, 500mil Dramiel's were pretty much invincible. "Oh, but it's a 500 mil frigate!" Yea, that didn't seem to stop oceans of people from fitting them out, undocking, and wreaking havoc with them, now did it? Uncatchable Cynabals were just as OP, but nothing was worse than a Mach that could top 6K a second while still pumping out world ending DPS and aligning like a cruiser. And that was back when just the hull was over 1bil. It was still stupid and it still had to be nerfed because it was simply bad for the game.

"Oh, but it's only good if you dead space fit it!" has never been a good argument for why a ship should remain in the OP realm, especially given the falling prices of faction and dead space modules. Throwing ISK at a ship until it becomes OP should never be a thing, and you really don't have to throw that much at a T3C to make it stupidly powerful.

I can agree that strategic cruisers aren't hugely overpowered after considering their price. Now there are those who would say that price is a non-factor, some folks are so rich they would buy titans with ISK just to stick em in a hangar somewhere, if titans were actually on the market for ISK. Perhaps that is partly why I disagree with having a ship so powerful and expensive that is so small. I wouldn't mind if that price tag were on a tech 3 battlecruiser, but I'd really like to see the cost and power of the strategic cruiser brought down a whole lot. It's too much for a cruiser. The reason there aren't more people abusing it is because people that spacerich aren't as common as some will have you believe.

Well that would be because they are cruisers, so it makes sense to compare them to other cruisers.
That's always where they have been, but on the contrary they have had there combat competency increased after there balance pass.

He is correct though, they should have cruiser HP, because you know, they are cruisers.

Haven't read the whole thread, but since this is a "nerf T3s" thread that actually has some traction here's my 0.2 ISK:

CCP should have never called them Tech 3. It is impossible to get people, including CCPs own development team, to remember that they are supposed to be less powerful but more adaptable than Tech 2.


"3 > 2, thus T3 has to be more powerful than T2" <-- is how everyone thinks, even subconsciously, which is why they've been a broken OP plague for 7 damn years!

What CCP should have done is called them Adaptive Tech. Yes there'd be a little confusion with the shorthand of "AT" given that there's "Alliance Tourney" ships, but since you only see Tourney ships in the rare ALOD, I don't see it as a big deal.

Anyone seeing an Adaptive Tech Cruiser would know that it's a wildcard. Is it tank fit? DPS fit? EWAR fit? Kite fit? Brawler? WTF will I be fighting!?

That's the power of an ATC, not the bullshit of cruiser DPS and application, cruiser sig, BS tank(!), all because it has a '3' in the description.


If I had my way these are just a few of the changes I'd make:

• No more SP loss on destruction. This removes the gun from CCPs head that's preventing them from nerfing the entire class into the ground where it belongs.
• Base resists would become equal to T1.
• There would be subsystems for interdiction nullification, cloaking, resists, local repair, and buffer HP. These would ALL be defensive subsystems. So you get to choose ONE of them to use at any one time.
• Strategic Cruisers would have a special bay called a Subsystem Hold which can only store subsystems. Base size is 100m3 + 20%/level of racial Strategic Cruiser.
• All Strategic Cruisers would have the following role bonus: Modules and subsystems may be fitted and unfitted without the need for a fitting service. This bonus does not take effect if you have a weapons timer. (So you could change from a cloaky scout to hero tackle mid-warp!)
• All Strategic Cruisers would have the following role bonus: Rigs may be removed without destroying them.
• All Strategic Cruisers would have the following role bonus: 95% reduction in capacitor cost for onlining modules. (Mostly for juggling a combat probe launcher and weapons, but I'm sure there'd be some fun emergent gameplay with this)