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Randomly Generated Warpable Debris Fields
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SurrenderMonkey
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2015-12-30 19:31:25 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
ToshioMagic wrote:


SurrenderMonkey wrote:


That all seems a bit dramatic, especially if they're randomly generated and ephemeral. Sounds like you're picturing every gate having a field of permanent tacticals built-in. My take on the OP was that any given grid might have 0-X temporary warpables generated on grid creation (downtime for things like gates and stations).


Not generated on grid creation. Just generate a different one at downtime.


From what I recall of how grids work, what happens when the game comes up after DT basically IS grid creation for grids that contain a permanent celestial.

All of the "empty" grids are created dynamically - they don't exist until there's something on them, basically. You obviously wouldn't want to prepopulate 7000 systems worth of 7800x7800km grids because most of them (like... 99.99...99%) they will never be visited at all, right? So unless you wanted to restrict this to "permanent" grids only....

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
ToshioMagic
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#22 - 2015-12-30 19:37:16 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
ToshioMagic wrote:

Not generated on grid creation. Just generate a different one at downtime.


From what I recall of how grids work, what happens when the game comes up after DT basically IS grid creation for grids that contain a permanent celestial.

All of the "empty" grids are created dynamically - they don't exist until there's something on them, basically. You obviously wouldn't want to prepopulate 7000 systems worth of 7800x7800km grids because most of them will never have a damn thing on them, right? So unless you wanted to restrict this to "permanent" grids...


Ah, ok. I'm glad someone else is more familiar with grid mechanics than me. I guess I was only thinking of having this implemented at 'permanent' grids. But I don't see anything wrong with doing it on dynamically created grids everywhere. That might be interesting. Or dynamically creating it only when someone first warps to the grid.

Either way, I think what you're talking about really comes down to whether or not its computationally efficient to generate these in real time or at downtime. That's an implementation challenge that a dev would have to speak on. My answer is that I simply don't know :(.
SurrenderMonkey
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2015-12-30 19:59:09 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
ToshioMagic wrote:


Either way, I think what you're talking about really comes down to whether or not its computationally efficient to generate these in real time or at downtime. That's an implementation challenge that a dev would have to speak on. My answer is that I simply don't know :(.


The real-time cost would be minimal. I mean, it's not much different than generating a mission dungeon, also done dynamically.

Precalculating them all, though... you know how many 7800x7800x7800 "grids" there are in 1 cubic AU? Shocked

Napkin math, I think it comes out to something in the sextillions.

Edit: Er. no, trillions. Done ****** up my units :D.

But yeah, on the whole, I think it could be interesting if there were a chance of some random detritus strewn about - maybe 5-10% of there being anything on any given grid at all.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
ToshioMagic
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#24 - 2015-12-30 20:43:17 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
ToshioMagic wrote:


Either way, I think what you're talking about really comes down to whether or not its computationally efficient to generate these in real time or at downtime. That's an implementation challenge that a dev would have to speak on. My answer is that I simply don't know :(.


The real-time cost would be minimal. I mean, it's not much different than generating a mission dungeon, also done dynamically.

Precalculating them all, though... you know how many 7800x7800x7800 "grids" there are in 1 cubic AU? Shocked

Napkin math, I think it comes out to something in the sextillions.

Edit: Er. no, trillions. Done ****** up my units :D.

But yeah, on the whole, I think it could be interesting if there were a chance of some random detritus strewn about - maybe 5-10% of there being anything on any given grid at all.


Well, in that case I think I would limit it to only gate grids for now. Whether its generated on first capsuleer warpin or at downtime doesn't matter to me.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#25 - 2015-12-31 14:52:45 UTC
ToshioMagic wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
This is a horrible idea. Grids were made large for a reason. The reason wasn't to litter space with convenient warpables. This idea would kill a lot of the fun of command destroyers in the cradle.

If you want tactical BM that you can warp to, then make them. It's called planning.

As a goonswarm FC you already have access to overwhelming numbers of pilots. Now you want free tacticals too? You're only fighting guys for the luls, why the sudden need to be all serious business?

Come gaze into my crystal ball - allow me to reveal what will come to pass.

Now - you have overwhelming numbers and wander hamfisted across new eden. The few fights you get are from folks fighting above their weightclass. The reason they are engaging your superior numbers is because they have some homefield advantage (tactical BM).

Your spacejunk future - you have overwhelming numbers and wander hamfisted across new eden. You get no fights. Your numbers are overwhelming. No one can match you. No one is willing to stand and fight and obvious losing battle. You wander hamfisted across new eden. There is no glory, no good fights just an endless stream of spacejunk coverd gates and stations. Your fleets are boring and bring no content. Your fleetsize dwindles. You are labelled 'no fun'. The only thing pilots remember about you is that your space junk idea killed the joy of roaming. You quit the game amidst a barrage of ridicule and hate. Pariah only begins to describe you.

Are you sure this is what you want??


Before I begin, may I get an ISD to remove this post for trolling?

Ditch the Grr Goons. You have no idea who I am or how I FC. I don't need bookmarks. I'm one of the best combat probers in the game. When I roam enemy space (which I haven't since this summer since I took a break to graduate from college this semester), I roam outnumbered and against the odds. The scenario you described is quite silly.

I take 10 to 40 man gangs through wormholes to hostile space. There is no way to plan for that. I can't go put a bookmark on every gate in the game. If I'm being chased and want to engage, but don't have bookmarks, then I'll just keep running. Then no one gets a fight. But if I had warpable objects it would give me enough of a tactical boost (which both FC's get) to stay and fight. Bookmarks remain a tactical advantage.

Here's some homefield advantages that you are so scared of losing:
1. You can warp to your own bookmarks at 0 cloaked.
2. You can warp to your bookmarks nowhere near a debris item.
3. You can anchor bubbles in your home space on all of the debris items.
4. You can set up bombing run bookmarks on debris items.
5. You know where the debris items are before the hostiles come to your system.

Also, CDs are not getting killed in the cradle. They're being used and abused like no other game mechanic in Eve. This feature would do little to detract from their presence in a fleet.

I'm not envisioning an entire asteroid belt around a stargate. I'm thinking something like 2 or 3 items with sig radii varying from 5m to 5km somewhere between 100km and 1000km away from the gate. For really busy systems you might see up to 10. Like I said in the OP these questions come down to testing.

SurrenderMonkey wrote:


That all seems a bit dramatic, especially if they're randomly generated and ephemeral. Sounds like you're picturing every gate having a field of permanent tacticals built-in. My take on the OP was that any given grid might have 0-X temporary warpables generated on grid creation (downtime for things like gates and stations).


Not generated on grid creation. Just generate a different one at downtime.

Thank you all for the thoughtful feedback so far.



I never said grr goons. You fly the goon flag via your corp ticker. Goons have numbers. They use them. These are facts, they are not opinions. It's not a troll. My opinion of your idea is that it would limit the few folks willing to fight up against your superior numbers even more. That you personally choose to run 10-40 man fleets (good for you, those are what I would call fun numbers) doesn't in any way exclude the option to bring 200 or what this change would mean to a 200 man fleet. Even if you're just 10 dudes, there is the possibility that 1 of the 10 has a cyno fitted (again what you personally do or don't do as to hot dropping doesn't have any bearing on the possibility).

Adding debris takes away home court advantage. It gives the home team one more reason to dock up and hang blue balls on the station door. Eve doesn't need more reasons to not fight. That's where I'm coming from. We both know that goin out every day and making new BM to new debris and removing old BM would be a tedious mess and it would be multiplied by the number of debris locations in your system. The reality is that it would promote the practice of covering gates w/ 50 large t2 bubbles and being done with it. Anchor 50 bubbles once and done OR daily sweeps to maintain debris tacticals - this is an easy decision. Even if you don't maintain debris related tacticals (I wouldn't) it still lends to bubbling the crap out of low travel gates and telling your people to dock up in non bubbled systems. It's just the smart and easy play.

I like pvp. I roam out of the wh I live in. Debris would be good for my playstyle, but I'm saying it's bad overall. I've been killed many times by the skilled use of tacticals (see my last mach loss in lowsex - we used command destroyer to pull a rattler off an undock and they quickly used station tacticals to blow up our rattlesnake gank - those guys were good and more or less clowned us with tacticals).

I'll give you the hamfisted part was uncalled for (but I thought funny) and the crystal ball thing was meant to be entertaining. I try to post with the required 21 pieces of flare.
ToshioMagic
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#26 - 2015-12-31 19:18:29 UTC  |  Edited by: ToshioMagic
Serendipity Lost wrote:

I never said grr goons. You fly the goon flag via your corp ticker. Goons have numbers. They use them. These are facts, they are not opinions. It's not a troll. My opinion of your idea is that it would limit the few folks willing to fight up against your superior numbers even more.

So what you're saying is that any fleet with more numbers has an advantage? Wow, duh. Of course they do. This isn't even an argument. It's just grr goons. Goons aren't the only ones who want to bring a numbers advantage to a fight.

Serendipity Lost wrote:

Adding debris takes away home court advantage. It gives the home team one more reason to dock up and hang blue balls on the station door.

It does not take away home court advantage. Home court is way more than a tactical bookmark off of a stargate. It's jump bridges, titan bridges, citadels (soon), local reshipping, intel networks, and way more. If you think that one or two tactical bookmarks off a stargate is going to so heavily swing the meta in one direction that every single local group docks up then you're wrong. Plain wrong. This tells me that you don't do real fleet PVP. You just sit in a wormhole and only peek out to gank someone once in a while.

Serendipity Lost wrote:

We both know that goin out every day and making new BM to new debris and removing old BM would be a tedious mess and it would be multiplied by the number of debris locations in your system.

Then don't do it. I wouldn't do it. You have your own tacticals? Great. Use them. Home court advantage already.

Serendipity Lost wrote:

The reality is that it would promote the practice of covering gates w/ 50 large t2 bubbles and being done with it. Anchor 50 bubbles once and done OR daily sweeps to maintain debris tacticals - this is an easy decision. Even if you don't maintain debris related tacticals (I wouldn't) it still lends to bubbling the crap out of low travel gates and telling your people to dock up in non bubbled systems. It's just the smart and easy play.

Just because you would bubble every single gate doesn't mean that everyone else will. You know who bubbles gates? People who don't PVP. Miners. People who are bad at PVP and are scared. This is NOT the "smart and easy play." If it was, everyone would do it. Come travel through Dek, Fade, PB, or Trib and see that this isn't the case.
FT Cold
FT Cold Corporation
#27 - 2015-12-31 20:52:19 UTC
Actually, I kind of like this idea. Not bad.
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