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Increase SP acquisition for new accounts
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Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#61 - 2015-12-21 15:00:02 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Newbies are not helped with skill points, they are not helped with isk, they're not helped with hand holding. They're helped by giving them a proper tutorial that explains stuff properly, a long one, where this all is explained. And beyond that they're help with "stop being a giant massive pussy" attitude from both other players as the game. Sink or swim.

And they'd be helped with if the game didn't start with mining and running missions...


thats the problem. as soon as you start the game you are pretty much forced into mining or missions, no wonder people quit the game when they are forced into the 2 most boring activities in the game


No, you're not. It's just the two most obvious things to do, especially to people who are used to grind MMO's. But it certainly isn't the only thing to do.


i wasn't shown anything pvp related in tutorials (the new system may have changed), nothing about fitting ships, what scrams and points do, counter measures, different space and what sort of precautions you should take when traveling there.

I was use to the mmo grind and would avoid it by using rl money as my income and cant remember being shown anything other than missions and mining


I'm almost always in Rookie. Lots of people ask the "what should I be doing" question and as long as I get the feeling that they have working braincells I'll show them a bunch of options they can do. While I'll agree with "the tutorial is limited" (because that's what I stated in the first post) it's not completely up to the game to spoon feed people "everything". Every newbie has access to the help channels, all they have to do is read it and/or participate.
Mithandra
B.O.P Supplication For Glorious
Dracarys.
#62 - 2015-12-21 15:27:59 UTC
The bit that gets me, that really frosts my teats, is the posts by new people demanding parity with players that have been active in the game for 10 years.

Its like a Primary School Pupil demanding to be the equal of Richard Feinmann on their first day in the class room.

EVE like life is not fair. It doesn't claim to be. Its a cold hearted totally bewitching *****. That's probably why most of us masochists love her so much.

Skillpoints decide what you can fly, they don't decide if you live or die. In a 1V1 they could tip the balance, but eve isn't about chivalry and holding the door open for our lady pilots, its about getting ahead any way you can; hook, crook or massive overkill.

That 140 mill pilot kicked your arse in his blinged out Barghest? get together with a few friends and rip him a new one. He'll feel the isk hurt more than you will.

Eve is the dark haired, totally hot emo gothchild of the gaming community
Demica Diaz
SE-1
#63 - 2015-12-21 15:48:50 UTC
I really hate to bring example yet again from MMO that all EVE players love but giving instant level 90 and in next expansion instant level 100 characters did not do a damn thing for World of Warcraft. 0... nada... it only gave WoW vets another alt to farm daily missions in garrison.

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#64 - 2015-12-21 15:54:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Vimsy Vortis
Lan Wang wrote:
i wasn't shown anything pvp related in tutorials (the new system may have changed), nothing about fitting ships, what scrams and points do, counter measures, different space and what sort of precautions you should take when traveling there.

I was use to the mmo grind and would avoid it by using rl money as my income and cant remember being shown anything other than missions and mining

Its an issue further exacerbated by the belief of many players that newbies must be protected from experiencing PVP. Literally people think newbies should be sheltered from the content that is the primary selling point of the game.

Fortunately CCPs analytics have demonstrated pretty strongly that newbies exploding doesn't instantaneously cause them to freak out and quit the game forever (presumably because they are grown adults, not developmentally challenged children as some players would have you believe).
Solecist Project
#65 - 2015-12-21 16:03:42 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
i wasn't shown anything pvp related in tutorials (the new system may have changed), nothing about fitting ships, what scrams and points do, counter measures, different space and what sort of precautions you should take when traveling there.

I was use to the mmo grind and would avoid it by using rl money as my income and cant remember being shown anything other than missions and mining

Its an issue further exacerbated by the belief of many players that newbies must be protected from experiencing PVP. Literally people thing newbies should be sheltered from the content that is the primary selling point of the game.

Fortunately CCPs analytics have demonstrated pretty strongly that newbies exploding doesn't instantaneously cause them to freak out and quit the game forever (presumably because they are grown adults, not developmentally challenge children as some players would have you believe).

Best part is that the truth is that sheltered and protected children suck at life later on ...
... and never learned to think for themselves or protect themselves.

Perfect slaves to authority.

That no one wonders how humanity got that far without all the safety is beyond me.
And it o ly gets worse, with the nature hating PC crowd getting older...

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Tristan Agion
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#66 - 2015-12-21 16:08:56 UTC
One of the many reasons I'm so looking forward to the skill packets is this:

Anybody who then writes cookie cutter comments about how SP do not matter, since one can enjoy EVE just the same in a T1 frigate, and yadda, yadda, yadda - they will then be able to strip those pointless SPs of their character and give them to me...

Till then I will have to play skill queue online, an activity just slightly less inspiring than filling in a tax form while getting a root canal. And every single smugvet admonishing newbies on how unimportant SPs are will be playing skill queue online along with me, of course, as they have done for many a year. For they have already trained Hypocrisy V.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#67 - 2015-12-21 16:09:03 UTC
Mithandra wrote:
The bit that gets me, that really frosts my teats, is the posts by new people demanding parity with players that have been active in the game for 10 years.

Its like a Primary School Pupil demanding to be the equal of Richard Feinmann on their first day in the class room.

EVE like life is not fair. It doesn't claim to be. Its a cold hearted totally bewitching *****. That's probably why most of us masochists love her so much.

Skillpoints decide what you can fly, they don't decide if you live or die. In a 1V1 they could tip the balance, but eve isn't about chivalry and holding the door open for our lady pilots, its about getting ahead any way you can; hook, crook or massive overkill.

That 140 mill pilot kicked your arse in his blinged out Barghest? get together with a few friends and rip him a new one. He'll feel the isk hurt more than you will.



+1. When i started most people I played with had a 4 year head start on me. It never crossed my mind that I was 'behind' and CCP needs to give me something.

Now, there may be a smallish need to compensate for how now people have up to 12 years of SP and other things like accumulated wealth. But EVE is not a regular MMO that says "here's a boost so you too can 'catch up' with people who have been with us longer , screw the fact that this diminishes they're accomplishments while not teaching you what has value in this game" lol.

For me personally, the fact that EVE had established players and started me as an underdog who had to prove himself was one of the things that kept me coming back to EVE in those early days.
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#68 - 2015-12-21 16:13:49 UTC
Buy PLEX, buy character from the Character Bazaar...

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=topics&f=277

Magically you have a skilled character!

/thread
Solecist Project
#69 - 2015-12-21 16:15:34 UTC
Tristan Agion wrote:
One of the many reasons I'm so looking forward to the skill packets is this:

Anybody who then writes cookie cutter comments about how SP do not matter, since one can enjoy EVE just the same in a T1 frigate, and yadda, yadda, yadda - they will then be able to strip those pointless SPs of their character and give them to me...

Till then I will have to play skill queue online, an activity just slightly less inspiring than filling in a tax form while getting a root canal. And every single smugvet admonishing newbies on how unimportant SPs are will be playing skill queue online along with me, of course, as they have done for many a year. For they have already trained Hypocrisy V.

And you will still suck at this game ...
... because your issue is a cognitive one.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Leeluvv
United Caldari Navy
United Caldari Space Command.
#70 - 2015-12-21 16:40:05 UTC
Tristan Agion wrote:
One of the many reasons I'm so looking forward to the skill packets is this:

Anybody who then writes cookie cutter comments about how SP do not matter, since one can enjoy EVE just the same in a T1 frigate, and yadda, yadda, yadda - they will then be able to strip those pointless SPs of their character and give them to me...

Till then I will have to play skill queue online, an activity just slightly less inspiring than filling in a tax form while getting a root canal. And every single smugvet admonishing newbies on how unimportant SPs are will be playing skill queue online along with me, of course, as they have done for many a year. For they have already trained Hypocrisy V.


Well done, you've missed the point totally. If everyone flew logistics and command ships, who would fly the suicide tackle? It isn't about equality, it's about using your brain, but you don't seem to have this skill plugged in yet.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2015-12-21 16:40:20 UTC
Tristan Agion wrote:
One of the many reasons I'm so looking forward to the skill packets is this:

Anybody who then writes cookie cutter comments about how SP do not matter, since one can enjoy EVE just the same in a T1 frigate, and yadda, yadda, yadda - they will then be able to strip those pointless SPs of their character and give them to me...

Till then I will have to play skill queue online, an activity just slightly less inspiring than filling in a tax form while getting a root canal. And every single smugvet admonishing newbies on how unimportant SPs are will be playing skill queue online along with me, of course, as they have done for many a year. For they have already trained Hypocrisy V.


Skill points don't prepare players for anything in the game, they are merely time-based qualifiers. What makes a player good is experience, which again takes time. Time you can spend training skills while you learn the game's ins and outs. If you're just playing 'skill queues online', you'll wind up with however many skill points you have and no idea how to actually use them.

But here's the thing, even with transneural skill packets, someone still has to spend time training the skills to put into them. All this does is make the character bazaar a little more dynamic, and it in no way accelerates skill training time until somebody buys those skills. If somebody who doesn't understand EVE buys them, it's not going to make them better at the game. As the old saying goes, you have to crawl before you can run.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Lan Wang
African Atomic.
Dreadnought Diplomacy.
#72 - 2015-12-21 16:47:57 UTC
Tristan Agion wrote:
One of the many reasons I'm so looking forward to the skill packets is this:

Anybody who then writes cookie cutter comments about how SP do not matter, since one can enjoy EVE just the same in a T1 frigate, and yadda, yadda, yadda - they will then be able to strip those pointless SPs of their character and give them to me...

Till then I will have to play skill queue online, an activity just slightly less inspiring than filling in a tax form while getting a root canal. And every single smugvet admonishing newbies on how unimportant SPs are will be playing skill queue online along with me, of course, as they have done for many a year. For they have already trained Hypocrisy V.


why dont you buy a character if it matters so much?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2015-12-21 16:49:14 UTC
Leeluvv wrote:
Tristan Agion wrote:
One of the many reasons I'm so looking forward to the skill packets is this:

Anybody who then writes cookie cutter comments about how SP do not matter, since one can enjoy EVE just the same in a T1 frigate, and yadda, yadda, yadda - they will then be able to strip those pointless SPs of their character and give them to me...

Till then I will have to play skill queue online, an activity just slightly less inspiring than filling in a tax form while getting a root canal. And every single smugvet admonishing newbies on how unimportant SPs are will be playing skill queue online along with me, of course, as they have done for many a year. For they have already trained Hypocrisy V.


Well done, you've missed the point totally. If everyone flew logistics and command ships, who would fly the suicide tackle? It isn't about equality, it's about using your brain, but you don't seem to have this skill plugged in yet.


I will always volunteer for suicide tackle. Nothing beats the grits of blasting into the middle of an Ishtar fleets drones with a hull-tanked Taranis and having smartbombing battleships warp to you to wipe out all your opposition's dps before grabbing the nearest Ishtar and dropping your T3s and HACs on the rest. Yep, that's a true story. Killed over 40 Ishtars that came to defend a tower we were blapping by flying my 'ranis almost straight at their sentry drone ball (with two other guys in ceptors as well, for redundancy) and then dropping smartbombing geddons in the middle of it, four of them. All their dps off the field, the Ishtars were easy pickings for our AHACs and T3s, of which we had 12-15. Outnumbered, and outgunned by, at the time, OP Ishtar sentries, and we wiped them out.

Best part? We didn't lose a single ship, not even a 'ceptor.

K, story time is over. The actual best part of this was that the plan was concocted by a guy with barely 5 mil SP. He flew my wing in an Atron, and came out of it in one piece. So don't even try to tell me SP has any significant bearing on your success in this game, because it is but a minor factor at play when it comes to winning at EVE. Your wits, and your knowledge of the mechanics, above all else, is what makes the difference. And these pejoratives all these twits that just want instant everything come up with like 'smugvet' mean literally nothing, and are little more than tantrums.

Having more skillpoints is like wearing a knuckle duster in a fist fight. Sure, your punches will hurt more, but if you can't hit the other guy because he's just better, you're still gonna lose.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#74 - 2015-12-21 16:57:56 UTC
OP... No.

The rest I don't care to bother reading.

Merry xmas or happy holidays, whichever floats your boat.

Daemun of Khanid
Vivias Xelnoa
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#75 - 2015-12-21 16:58:34 UTC
Mithandra wrote:
The bit that gets me, that really frosts my teats, is the posts by new people demanding parity with players that have been active in the game for 10 years.

Its like a Primary School Pupil demanding to be the equal of Richard Feinmann on their first day in the class room.

EVE like life is not fair. It doesn't claim to be. Its a cold hearted totally bewitching *****. That's probably why most of us masochists love her so much.

Skillpoints decide what you can fly, they don't decide if you live or die. In a 1V1 they could tip the balance, but eve isn't about chivalry and holding the door open for our lady pilots, its about getting ahead any way you can; hook, crook or massive overkill.

That 140 mill pilot kicked your arse in his blinged out Barghest? get together with a few friends and rip him a new one. He'll feel the isk hurt more than you will.



I never wanted parity with people who have played for a decade if you actually read the post. What I was requesting was a quicker train time for new accounts.. So perhaps a year of playing equates to 2/3 years of SP. After that the bonus can be removed as the intended point of bringing a new player more into the fold of older players has been accomplished.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2015-12-21 17:06:05 UTC
Vivias Xelnoa wrote:
Mithandra wrote:
The bit that gets me, that really frosts my teats, is the posts by new people demanding parity with players that have been active in the game for 10 years.

Its like a Primary School Pupil demanding to be the equal of Richard Feinmann on their first day in the class room.

EVE like life is not fair. It doesn't claim to be. Its a cold hearted totally bewitching *****. That's probably why most of us masochists love her so much.

Skillpoints decide what you can fly, they don't decide if you live or die. In a 1V1 they could tip the balance, but eve isn't about chivalry and holding the door open for our lady pilots, its about getting ahead any way you can; hook, crook or massive overkill.

That 140 mill pilot kicked your arse in his blinged out Barghest? get together with a few friends and rip him a new one. He'll feel the isk hurt more than you will.



I never wanted parity with people who have played for a decade if you actually read the post. What I was requesting was a quicker train time for new accounts.. So perhaps a year of playing equates to 2/3 years of SP. After that the bonus can be removed as the intended point of bringing a new player more into the fold of older players has been accomplished.


It's simply not going to happen. The people here arguing against this idea aren't arguing against it, they're explaining why it's not going to happen. Ever. All the relevant explanations have been provided, and at this point, this conversation is going to start going around in circles, so what you have to understand is, you have two options now: adapt to what EVE is, or move on to something else.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#77 - 2015-12-21 17:29:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Vivias Xelnoa wrote:
What I was requesting was a quicker train time for new accounts.. So perhaps a year of playing equates to 2/3 years of SP.
…and what everyone is telling you is that this will not have the effect you're looking for — quite the opposite. It will not bring in any new players because they will still carry with them the the same erroneous assumptions about how the skill system works and what they need in order to play. They will still incorrectly believe that they are “behind” or that they “can't catch up”, and it is this misconception that keeps them from playing.

Again, if what you suggested actually had the effect you're assuming, you wouldn't be here suggesting it now because those players would already have joined the game. The “fixes” you're asking for have already been implemented; they have already failed to achieve what you envision; they are not even remotely connected to the actual issue with those players.

You (and those other players you wish to see join the game) are still operating on the assumption that EVE works like other MMOs in terms of its power curve. Only by dropping that assumption and instead understanding why those other games have that problem and why EVE does not will you get the desired result. It's a knowledge problem — it simply cannot be solved mechanically.

Remiel Pollard wrote:
I will always volunteer for suicide tackle. Nothing beats the grits of blasting into the middle of an Ishtar fleets drones with a hull-tanked Taranis and having smartbombing battleships warp to you to wipe out all your opposition's dps before grabbing the nearest Ishtar and dropping your T3s and HACs on the rest. Yep, that's a true story. Killed over 40 Ishtars that came to defend a tower we were blapping by flying my 'ranis almost straight at their sentry drone ball (with two other guys in ceptors as well, for redundancy) and then dropping smartbombing geddons in the middle of it, four of them. All their dps off the field, the Ishtars were easy pickings for our AHACs and T3s, of which we had 12-15. Outnumbered, and outgunned by, at the time, OP Ishtar sentries, and we wiped them out.

Best part? We didn't lose a single ship, not even a 'ceptor.

Nah. The best part is that ever since total SP was made completely meaningless, anyone can enjoy this — even ancient players — without having to worry about being penalised for their age. P
Tristan Agion
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#78 - 2015-12-21 18:03:19 UTC
Leeluvv wrote:
If everyone flew logistics and command ships, who would fly the suicide tackle? It isn't about equality, it's about using your brain, but you don't seem to have this skill plugged in yet.

I would suggest that those fly suicide tackle who want to. Instead, newer players have to, because they are largely useless otherwise. And useless not because they have no gaming skills, or are incapable of acquiring them in short order if given a chance. Useless simply because they are locked out of the relevant game content, for months or even years.

Indeed, it is not about player "equality". It is essentially about CCP making people pay more for more game content.

And skill packets are basically a mechanism for switching from a famously inflexible payment plan (the only way to acquire the full game is via subscription for many years) to more flexible payment options.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#79 - 2015-12-21 18:17:03 UTC
Tristan Agion wrote:
I would suggest that those fly suicide tackle who want to. Instead, newer players have to, because they are largely useless otherwise. And useless not because they have no gaming skills, or are incapable of acquiring them in short order if given a chance. Useless simply because they are locked out of the relevant game content, for months or even years.
New players can take part in everything the game has to offer from day 1. Everything they have on that first day is relevant to every activity in the game. While suicide tackle is an easy thing to get into at the start, it is not even remotely the only thing they can do — claiming that new players “have to” take on that role is nothing short of laughable and demonstrates a shocking ignorance of basic gameplay and the options it opens up.

Quote:
And skill packets are basically a mechanism for switching from a famously inflexible payment plan (the only way to acquire the full game is via subscription for many years) to more flexible payment options.

You acquire the full game the instant you turn your trial account into a full one. If you've somehow found a way to keep a trial going for many years, you should probably contact CCP so they can fix that bug.
Memphis Baas
#80 - 2015-12-21 18:51:09 UTC
Tristan Agion wrote:
Useless simply because they are locked out of the relevant game content, for months or even years.


I'm sorry but the math disagrees with you:

CCP has reduced prerequisites for T2 modules from training skills to 4-5 to training skills to 3. Even for ships they've reduced prerequisites from having several skills at 5 to 4, in some cases 3. You can fly T2 fittings in a month tops, you can unlock "all T1 subcapitals" in a month, you can unlock a selection of T2 ships in a month. There are no clone costs, and everyone gets jump clones now. Refining things pretty much like everyone else doesn't require skills anymore; the skills now barely give you 2%.

The game no longer locks you out of "content" for months or years like you claim.

And I disagree with you conceptually, too: this game's "content" is getting into cool fights as a result being in the right fleet at the right time, and that's a result of finding a good corp and interacting with people socially. So, yeah, people ARE "locked out of content", but that's because PL isn't openly recruiting, Goons aren't openly recruiting, wormhole corps are wary of recruiting just anyone, lowsec pirates don't want useless carebears in their ranks, and so on. If I could transfer my capital ship skills to a newbie and even give the dread and the carrier, he or she will still be locked out of 0.0 gameplay because NBSI and being a target in every area where those ships are flyable.

The amount of time it takes a newbie to learn the game, socialize, and find a good group, and the amount of time it takes for the group to trust the newbie somewhat, is a few months, and CCP can't change that. By then, the newbie will have skills, ships, and knowledge. So it comes together nicely.