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Carebear or Not Carebear
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Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#41 - 2015-12-20 03:28:27 UTC
But the Tippia/Capt Tardbar argument does bring out the reason I posted. The attitude of my friends in FEAR was pretty much the same as Capt. Tardbar's. Tippia is arguing what I always believed before joining FEAR.

I guess it is a charged term like Family Value and should be ignored since everyone has their own idea what it means. Thanks for your input everyone. You've clarified a lot for me.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#42 - 2015-12-20 03:31:20 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
I'm rather disapointed with your post. You did not address my point of "So even if you are allowed to determine who is and isn't a carebear, then where is the great carebear conspiracy ruining your game?"
Because it is a nonsensical (and off-topic) strawman.

Quote:
Maybe I did not express it well enough, but lets say I concede that you can condemn people through their thoughts rather than actions (which pray no real world court would ever do)
Courts do what I'm describing all the time. It's called “pleading guilty”.


That is terrible logic. I feel bad for you.

If we are talking about carebears, then why is the topic of why we must fight them off topic. Certainly the fact we get to define them as carebears is not, but why they are bad is off topic. Simply impudious.

I assume you dismiss them as off topic as a way to shield yoursef from having the admit that you cannot prove their is this "great carebear" consipracy out to ruin your game.

Also pleading guilty only admits guilt to actions that were illegal. Its not about thinking illegal thoughts but rather actions. Though conspriacy is a gray area thought legally dubious in my eyes.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#43 - 2015-12-20 03:31:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Iria Ahrens wrote:
But the Tippia/Capt Tardbar argument does bring out the reason I posted. The attitude of my friends in FEAR was pretty much the same as Capt. Tardbar's. Tippia is arguing what I always believed before joining FEAR.

I guess it is a charged term like Family Value and should be ignored since everyone has their own idea what it means. Thanks for your input everyone. You've clarified a lot for me.

You should introduce them to the term “krab”, which is probably more precise (and nearly different) for what they're trying to describe. P

Captain Tardbar wrote:
That is terrible logic.
How so?

Quote:
If we are talking about carebears, then why is the topic of why we must fight them off topic.
Because we're not talking about this conspiracy you believe in — we're talking about the meaning of the word. Your little fantasy has nothing to do with what the OP is asking about.

Quote:
Certainly the fact we get to define them as carebears is not, but why they are bad is off topic.
Correct. The latter is of no relevance to the former.
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#44 - 2015-12-20 03:34:42 UTC
ok, I have to admit I don't know the term krab.

Also,

Shawfluffers. I remember that Veteran Start thread! Good stuff.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#45 - 2015-12-20 03:38:01 UTC
Iria Ahrens wrote:
ok, I have to admit I don't know the term krab.

I'll steal it from someone else:

It's a Russian thing. It's actually this neat little cross section of a bunch of different memes:

* Russians in many MMOs refer to ****** players as crabs, insinuating that they can't play well when they've got claws instead of fingers. (I want to say this started in DOTA, actually, but idk; it's definitely been a thing in WoW in Russia for ages)

* Russians in many MMOs refer to RMTs as "рак" -- this is a Russian noun with multiple meanings. In a medical context, рак = cancer. But рак is also a slang term for crawfish. (Zodiac signs, etc.)

* A few years ago Putin made a famous speech where he complained that being President was a lot of work -- the phrase he used was "Пахал, как раб на галерах" which translates to "plowed, like a slave on a galley." However, "как раб" (like a slave) sounds nearly identical to "как краб" (like a crab). So, a ton of memes popped up, and are still around today, of Putin being a crab, and краб itself became a slang term for working hard, usually in a deprecating/mocking sense.


There's certainly some overlap with carebearing, but focuses a bit more on just grinding and not having much in the way of offensive capability.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#46 - 2015-12-20 03:41:43 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Iria Ahrens wrote:
But the Tippia/Capt Tardbar argument does bring out the reason I posted. The attitude of my friends in FEAR was pretty much the same as Capt. Tardbar's. Tippia is arguing what I always believed before joining FEAR.

I guess it is a charged term like Family Value and should be ignored since everyone has their own idea what it means. Thanks for your input everyone. You've clarified a lot for me.

You should introduce them to the term “krab”, which is probably more precise (and nearly different) for what they're trying to describe. P

Captain Tardbar wrote:
That is terrible logic.
How so?

Quote:
If we are talking about carebears, then why is the topic of why we must fight them off topic.
Because we're not talking about this conspiracy you believe in — we're talking about the meaning of the word. Your little fantasy has nothing to do with what the OP is asking about.

Quote:
Certainly the fact we get to define them as carebears is not, but why they are bad is off topic.
Correct. The latter is of no relevance to the former.


Ok. So we can agre that there is no carebear conspiracy out to ruin your game?

I still do not think attitude is good enough to define any classification...

I could tell you I am against PVP and yet gank miners so you would call me a carebear because of my attitude.

Hrm... I guess that is a problem with EVE as it is difficult to determine actions as well as thoughts other than looking at kill mail history.

Which might make the whole carebear definition thing pointless other than "I think people who disagree with me must be labeled carebears."

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

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Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#47 - 2015-12-20 03:41:45 UTC
Ahh thanks for that Tippia. Is that usage of Cancer related at all to the current EVE meme of throwing that term around? I come back and people are using the word cancer a lot, I can't help but wonder if it is just a new word for broken.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#48 - 2015-12-20 03:45:05 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Which might make the whole carebear definition thing pointless other than "I think people who disagree with me must be labeled carebears."

Nope. It is more specific than that.

How did you Veterans start?
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#49 - 2015-12-20 03:47:55 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Which might make the whole carebear definition thing pointless other than "I think people who disagree with me must be labeled carebears."

Nope. It is more specific than that.


So what is your specific definition for carebear... Hopefully defined with something other than just attitude as attitude is subjective and not objective.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#50 - 2015-12-20 03:52:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Ok. So we can agre that there is no carebear conspiracy out to ruin your game?
No. If you like, we can agree that it's a nonsensical strawman that you created to drag the thread off topic…

Quote:
I still do not think attitude is good enough to define any classification.
That's really your problem, since attitude is a massively common method of classification. The above examples of macho and bro and nerd demonstrates the inherently flaw of your thinking — you're effectively saying that they have no meaning.

Quote:
I could tell you I am against PVP and yet gank miners so you would call me a carebear because of my attitude.
Not really, no.

Quote:
attitude is subjective and not objective.
Lol no.

Iria Ahrens wrote:
Ahh thanks for that Tippia. Is that usage of Cancer related at all to the current EVE meme of throwing that term around? I come back and people are using the word cancer a lot, I can't help but wonder if it is just a new word for broken

No idea. I just came across it as a much-needed non-shitheel version of “jewing”.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#51 - 2015-12-20 03:55:14 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Captain Tardbar wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Which might make the whole carebear definition thing pointless other than "I think people who disagree with me must be labeled carebears."

Nope. It is more specific than that.


So what is your specific definition for carebear... Hopefully defined with something other than just attitude as attitude is subjective and not objective.

Here.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6231338#post6231338

It is defined by specific attitude. Not a general one.

And yes... as I implied in my post on page 2... mentality can be "objective" when specified.

How did you Veterans start?
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#52 - 2015-12-20 03:59:41 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Ok. So we can agre that there is no carebear conspiracy out to ruin your game?
No. If you like, we can agree that it's a nonsensical strawman that you created to drag the thread off topic…


Hrm... I'm tempted to drop the topic now as you you said no which means you believe there is a grand carebear conspiracy which say a lot I suppose. Ice belts are almost up anyways.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#53 - 2015-12-20 04:01:13 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Hrm... I'm tempted to drop the topic now as you you said no which means you believe there is a grand carebear conspiracy
Nope.
That's just you reaching for yet another strawman to replace your old one.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#54 - 2015-12-20 04:01:19 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Which might make the whole carebear definition thing pointless other than "I think people who disagree with me must be labeled carebears."

Nope. It is more specific than that.


So what is your specific definition for carebear... Hopefully defined with something other than just attitude as attitude is subjective and not objective.

Here.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6231338#post6231338

It is defined by specific attitude. Not a general one.

And yes... as I implied in my post on page 2... mentality can be "objective" when specified.


Well I would agree with your post. However it specifically mentions actions, not attitude.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#55 - 2015-12-20 04:02:43 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Hrm... I'm tempted to drop the topic now as you you said no which means you believe there is a grand carebear conspiracy
Nope.
That's just you reaching for yet another strawman to replace your old one.


So I asked you a question. If you said no to "Is there a great carebear conspiracy out to ruin your game?" then it means you do not believe in it.

So either you believe in it or not. It can't be neither.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#56 - 2015-12-20 04:05:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Well I would agree with your post. However it specifically mentions actions, not attitude.

It demonstrates how attitude exhibits itself even though the basic actions are the same, and how it's actually fairly easy to pick up.

Quote:
So I asked you a question. If you said no to "Is there a great carebear conspiracy out to ruin your game?" then it means you do not believe in it.

That's not the question you asked, nor the one I said no to.

Quote:
So either you believe in it or not. It can't be neither.

Yes it can, actually, for a number of reasons.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#57 - 2015-12-20 04:07:57 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
Here.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6231338#post6231338

It is defined by specific attitude. Not a general one.

And yes... as I implied in my post on page 2... mentality can be "objective" when specified.


Well I would agree with your post. However it specifically mentions actions, not attitude.

Then you are being willfully obtuse.

How did you Veterans start?
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#58 - 2015-12-20 04:07:59 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Well I would agree with your post. However it specifically mentions actions, not attitude.

It demonstrates how attitude exhibits itself even though the basic actions are the same.

Quote:
So I asked you a question. If you said no to "Is there a great carebear conspiracy out to ruin your game?" then it means you do not believe in it.

That's not the question you asked, nor the one I said no to.

Quote:
So either you believe in it or not. It can't be neither.

Yes it can, actually, for a number of reasons.


I feel like Richard Dawkins asking questions about apostasy.

So let's try it again...

"Do you or do you not believe in a carebear conspiracy to ruin your game?"

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

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Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#59 - 2015-12-20 04:10:44 UTC
"A person who runs missions and "bugs out" (or doesn't take the "bait") when confronted by a "ninja looter" is not necessarily a carebear."

Action

"A person who runs missions and complains that people can interfere with his/her mission running activities IS a carebear."

Action

"A person who does industry and hauls stuff around is not necessarily a carebear."

Action

"A person who does industry and hauls stuff around, but avoids any and all potentially profitable ventures and complains about it (because he/she doesn't want to expose him/herself to any possible risk) IS a carebear."

Action

"A person who does PvP and chooses engagements to have the best odds of winning is not necessarily a carebear."

Action

"A person who does PvP, chooses engagements to have the best odds of winning, and then turns around and says that it isn't fair that others are doing the same thing is a carebear."

Aslo an action.

"A person who only operates solo is not necessarily a carebear."

Action

"A person who only operates solo and complains about how groups of players have an advantage over him/her is a carebear.":

Also an action.

I mean complaining is an action not an attitude.

All actions it appears to be...

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#60 - 2015-12-20 04:14:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Captain Tardbar wrote:
I feel like Richard Dawkins asking questions about apostasy.

So let's try it again...

"Do you or do you not believe in a carebear conspiracy to ruin your game?"

Irrelevant.

Quote:
I mean complaining is an action not an attitude.

All actions it appears to be...
Then you're not actually looking and instead just being wilfully obtuse, like the man said.
All your list demonstrates is that action is not a useful defining characteristic, when what really separates them is the very obvious difference in attitude.