EVE General Discussion

Carebears are the lifeblood of this game.

Without them many things would cease to function.

And before you say... "But I am a pvp character and I can mine with my alts and make my own ships without having to buy from dirty carebears."

If you mine and manufacture, it means you are a dirty carebear no matter what. Also station traders.

Nope. Without carebears, the PCU would change and the market would become more rational. That's about it.

Everything they do is already done, often more an better, by non-carebears.

Nope. Neither the definition of PvP nor the definition of carebear supports that dichotomy.

Carebear is an attitude, not an activity. This is highlighted by the fact that pretty much everything in EVE — including all the misidentified “carebear activities” — is PvP. It is further highlighted by how even outright combat can be done with a carebear attitude. The risks and potential losses you face in the market or through ill-conceived industry efforts can effortlessly outclass what you'd see in sensible combat, and at every step, you are in conflict with other players.

In setting up your dichotomy, you are making the classic mistake of equating PvP with combat, when all PvP means is… well… PvP — player versus player. You also make the classic mistake of thinking of equating non-competitor with carebear, when in actuality carebears compete all the time. The critical point of distinction you're missing is that they are unaware of or unwilling to accept the fact that they're competing, and try to avoid (or more accurately rationalise away) that unavoidable participation.

If your dichotomy were accurate, EVE would have exactly 0 carebears. Now if that is the perspective you want to champion, then that's all fine, I suppose, but I would also like to hear how you describe the players who hold the aforementioned attitude?

Nothing pseudo about it.

Then you are fundamentally confused about one of two things: what the three letters of “PvP” stand for, or the fundamental way the EVE universe works.

No. Your mining and manufacturing activities are non-carebear pretty much by default, until and unless you adopt a carebear attitude towards them and get really upset and angry when it turns out that you're not living in a special you-centric bubble.

No, because there are no carebear activities — only an attitude. Any activity (or none) can be approached with this attitude, and as such it is the attitude, not the activity, that defines who is one and who is not.

That's simply unfair... and you should retract it.....

Repeating a stream of learned memes and tired tropes is not logic

Heavens!

Next you'll be asking why, in a rational market, I can buy things I cannot mine or produce, cheaper that I can in the local market...

And that is before you get to the issue of why anyone gives a toss about the term 'carebear' - that is little more than an epithet thrown around by the cauliflower'd eared and brainless when losing an argument.

You really should stop doing that, because it's not a particularly constructive avenue.

I'll stop you right there because you got 4 words in before getting it wrong. There are carebears in EVE. They just aren't defined by any kind of “carebear activity” for the simple reason that there is no such thing — the activity is not the defining characteristic.

What gives me the power the define carebears as “thought crime” is the very simple fact that their assumptions about how the game work do not match how the game actually works. Now, thought crime is a bit harsh a term — I don't know why you'd pick that one — it's more a case of confusion and/or ignorance.

Nope. Either you are a carebear because you approach everything you do with a carebear attitude or you're not because you don't. The actions are a consequence, not the underlying cause.

Try this analogy on for size: you are not hungry because you're eating; you're hungry because your body is concerned about your blood sugar levels. This may cause you to eat, but you can also choose not to just as you can choose to eat without actually being hungry.

Good thing that no-one is actually saying that, then.

They're very vocal in what attitude they take towards what goes on around them…

I haven't played since 2014 and the thing that struck me about the forums is that there was no threads about griefing or bad behavior on GD. Which leads me to believe that most people either don't care or if they did quit.

Suffice to say, you are basically saying that you and you alone are allowed to define what a carebear is and which is defined through attitude and thoughts rather than actions.

How can you determine thoughts without action... Do you go about reviewing forum posts and saying "Obviously this poster is a carebear because he disagrees with my world view." Categorizes persons by thoughts is dangerous behavior because it does not get to the root of the problem.

I think the issue of "Carebears are out to ruin my game" is a problem with logic. Its as if you are afraid that forums posts will convice CCP to remove all PVP from the game and turn it into a theme park.

Yet I see no evidence for this... Can you post evidence of this great carebear conspiracy to ruin your game. Can you post the long list of threads in ideas and suggesions in the past 6 months that request removing of PVP from high sec?

I think this all imagined fear.

This carebear derogatory terms are used to belittle people who you believe do not agree with your world view. Yet I see little evidence that these people even exist.

Even if they did, what harm does it do for them to complain? Do you think that this game will be shut down because a handful of people compalined about being ganked?

Funny thing enough is that by the time I had arrived in Eve, I had already learned how to ignore other people's use of words or phrases like that and focus on your own interpretations instead. In the military we got called POG's, which meant "Person (or Personnel) Other than Grunt", which just simply means you're "not in an 03 field" as it were, like 0311 is rifleman and 0321 is Recon. Not really a derogatory label, more of a classification, just less formal than the actual use of a Military Occupation Specialty number. Sometimes POG was used by other Marines like it meant you were a lower tier, but in reality, it had nothing to do with a person's qualities. Add the fact that if over four years active service in the USMC has taught me anything, it's to keep a sense of humor even in serious conditions and that having a thick skin when interaction with other humans is absolutely essential to not loosing your freaking mind.

By the time I got to Eve, words and phrases, like "carebear" just as POG was to me, became mostly neutral to begin with and left up to interpretation. It's how one chooses to interpret and use them that matters the most when it comes to how someone takes being called something. "Carebear" is entirely neutral and subjective in my eyes, even when someone else tries to use it offensively like it means they are above me in some fashion. To some, it means you avoid or run away from PvP. To some, it simply means you don't play Eve in either an OFP sense or cooperative sense, rather than in a competitive sense. It even means to some that a carebear is the victim, where as a non-carebear is the ganker...pretty low on the creativity side, I agree, but it's how some think I suppose.

To me, it's a term that defines a person playing a multiplayer game WITHOUT actively interacting with other players, cooperatively or competitively, with friends or total strangers, much as they would a single-player game offline. If you play a game like Eve for as long as I and others have without interfacing with others in some way, be it working with others in mining or running missions or going solo in low looking for a fight, then you are a carebear. Doesn't mean you less than those who aren't, you're just simply a carebear. Call it being anti-social while, ironically, playing a game built around social interaction. Hey, sometimes people are just people. If someone wants to call me carebear because I don't PvP, but I run missions in high sec and occasionally run exploration sites, that's there prerogative. Not quite my definition, so if that were the case, I tend to ignore that kind of thinking and just go with what sounds appropriate to me.

And, in the event anyone is curious, I was 1142: Electrical Engineer Repair Specialist. In Layman's terms, generator mechanic, though oddly I spent most of my time in other various billets that had either little or nothing to do with providing a field op power. All in all, I probably had just under a year total experience being an actual "genny mech". Simper Gumby: Always Flexible.

Woops a daisy. I should have known putting the word carebear in my title would effectively create a troll post, Been gone too long, it was a total lapse, my bad.

Trolling is for alts.

How do you define someone as either a "wuss" or "macho?"
How do you define someone as either a "nerd" or a "bro?"
How do you define someone as either "conservative" or "adventurous?"

It really comes down to how people think.
A "wuss" can perform some very "macho" things if put in the right circumstances... but they will still be a wuss because of how they think.
A "macho" person can sometimes be a "wuss" about some issues/things... but they can still be considered "macho" because that is how they think.
A "nerd" can do some very "bro-ish" things... but based on how they think they will still be a nerd.
A "bro" can be a "nerd" about certain things... but they will still be a bro based on how they think.
A "conservative" person can do some of the most insanely adventurous things... but they will still be "conservative" based on how they think.
An "adventurous" person can be fairly conservative... but they will be considered "adventurous" because how they generally think.

This isn't a "thought police" thing. It isn't even an "action" thing. It is a mentality thing. And that mentality is pretty easy to pick up if you listen to someone.

Oh yeah...

Not by CCP's definition. All activities are PvP.

It even says so in the Official New Player FAQ found in New Citizens Q&A
(hint: scroll down to page 22)


Nope. They do.

It is called "Mens rea"