These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next page
 

Faction Police revamp/removal

Author
Frayn Bantam
The Chasers
#1 - 2015-12-18 18:08:00 UTC
This was originally posted to minerbumping and reddit by James 315, a few people said it would be a good idea if this was crossposted here so that's what I'm doing.

Quote:


From time to time, I have been critical of CCP's decisions when it comes to changing EVE's game mechanics. Smart people often ask me, "James 315, what would you change to make EVE a better game?" An easy reply would be to roll back some of the bad changes from the last few years. I might say that CCP could easily improve the game by simply giving us back awoxing, can-flipping, hyperdunking, and boomerang ganking. I could go on. And I will, but about something else.

Aside from those obvious ideas, I would like to offer an entirely new proposal: The removal of faction police.

For those who are unfamiliar with highsec mechanics, it's important to understand what the faction police are, and I'll give you a quick assist: Faction police are not CONCORD (which automatically kill suicide gankers) or faction navies (which attack players with low faction standings). Faction police attack players who have low security status in highsec. If a player has low sec status and remains on the same grid for about 20 seconds, faction police appear and automatically hold that player in place, and eventually kill him.

Faction police are the reason that players with low sec status must constantly bounce around and avoid staying in the same place for more than a few moments. Unlike CONCORD, faction police will seal a player's doom even if he has not committed a hostile act. Faction police function entirely separately from CONCORD. They don't have much impact on the ganks themselves, as they generally show up after CONCORD has already jammed a ganker, and where they don't (like a 0.5 system), they only have a chance at jamming a ganker before CONCORD performs its 100% guaranteed jam.

A lot of people, especially disingenuous carebears, might wonder why it would be a good idea to remove faction police. After all, they say, there should be some penalty for operating with negative sec status in highsec. Indeed, the advocates of a risk-free highsec frequently demand additional penalties (due to One More Nerf™ syndrome).

Aside from dealing with faction police, those with very low sec status have another penalty in highsec: They're freely attackable by everyone. They operate, in essence, as if there's a permanent kill right on them which is always active. This creates the potential for an enormous amount of content. Or it would, if not for the existence of faction police.

Because faction police prevent a low-security player from being on the same grid for more than about 20 seconds, these players can basically do only one thing: Participate in highly coordinated, well-prepared, perfectly timed suicide ganks. If you're not ganking, you're traveling gate-to-gate or gate-to-station in a pod with instant align time. In other words, you can't be attacked unless you're ganking, in which case your ship is already intended for death.

Being a blinky red does have one effect, which is that an Anti-Ganker can preemptively attack a ganker before the ganker opens fire on his target, or maybe preemptively tackle a ganker on his way out of a stargate if the ganker's target is in a neighboring system. (Ironically, Anti-Gankers complain most about their inability to "preemptively" strike at gankers, when it's really the only thing they can do under the mechanics.)

In theory, a low-security player could loiter around busy stargates, inviting a fight from anyone who dares. If someone wants a fight--or if a group wants a fight--they could open fire, allowing the low-security player to retaliate freely, instead of losing his ship to CONCORD. But because of faction police, the low-security player will be tackled and killed by NPCs anyway within a few seconds. Thus, the low-security player has the incentive neither to engage in a fight or even pilot a ship (other than a throw-away ganking vessel).

I think the idea of making low-security players into blinky reds was that they're considered criminals who can be attacked by vigilantes. CONCORD won't bring them to justice unless they gank someone, but any player in EVE is free to make a sort of citizen's arrest. Maybe they succeed, or maybe the ganker fights them off and gets away. It seems counter-intuitive for CCP to set the stage for this kind of content, and then have it eliminated by NPC interference.

It's clear, then, that the removal of faction police opens the door to a lot more content and conflict, both of which EVE could use. What would we lose by removing faction police? Nothing that I can think of. Low-security players can travel freely by warping in their pods, and the fact that gankers must time their ganks and prepare warp-ins obviously doesn't save carebears from being shot. Faction police don't add anything to the game; they only take from it.

Additional benefits of scrapping the facpo: Players who earned their negative sec status by living in lowsec have greater access to highsec, if they're willing to brave the vigilantes who lurk there. Lowsec conflicts can bubble into highsec, since lowsec players of warring factions can now use regular ships to patrol highsec trade routes and lowsec entry points--while risking interference from any EVE player who wants to take a shot at them.

Interestingly, CCP devs have occasionally spoken of their desire to remove NPC police mechanics with player-driven content, but they've never actually made a move to do it. Removing faction police would be a good first step.

My prediction: If CCP eliminates faction police, EVE subscriptions will skyrocket and everyone at CCP will get rich!
Ageanal Olerie
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2015-12-18 18:40:14 UTC

Who gives a flying **** about what James 315 has to say, other than the cowardly minions who slavishly do his bidding.



Frayn Bantam
The Chasers
#3 - 2015-12-18 18:52:28 UTC
Personally? I think the guy's a crackpot most of the time, but this is a good idea he's suggesting.
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#4 - 2015-12-18 19:46:10 UTC
I can see the merit in the idea but I wonder if this were to go through what effective security highsec would have remaining. Perhaps players could join a "faction police" where a concord dispatcher would alert them to pirates in highsec systems allowing them a chance to do the job faction police do currently.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#5 - 2015-12-18 19:51:06 UTC
I do not actually think it will change the behavior for most players with low security status, but I would prefer to see players get more opportunities if there are any low sec status players who want to sit in space and say "Come at me, bro!"

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#6 - 2015-12-18 19:52:00 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:
I can see the merit in the idea but I wonder if this were to go through what effective security highsec would have remaining. Perhaps players could join a "faction police" where a concord dispatcher would alert them to pirates in highsec systems allowing them a chance to do the job faction police do currently.


This alert is called "local chat."

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Helios Panala
#7 - 2015-12-18 20:28:56 UTC
If you're camping a gate and there happens to be some Empire ships floating about they should shoot you, it makes no sense that they wouldn't. But yeah, magic NPCs chasing people all over the system is pretty lame, let players do that bit.
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#8 - 2015-12-18 20:33:00 UTC
Ageanal Olerie wrote:

Who gives a flying **** about what James 315 has to say, other than the cowardly minions who slavishly do his bidding.






Show us on the Mackinaw model where the evil CODE pilots touched you...



....and then kindly disembark after contracting your space possessions to me, thanking you kindly.

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log

Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#9 - 2015-12-18 20:35:01 UTC
OP - this is a bad idea, made worse that it has now been propagated across multiple platforms.

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log

Mag's
Azn Empire
#10 - 2015-12-18 20:42:23 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
I do not actually think it will change the behavior for most players with low security status, but I would prefer to see players get more opportunities if there are any low sec status players who want to sit in space and say "Come at me, bro!"
This pretty much. Anything that increases player interaction, is a good thing. I've suggested this very thing in the past. Faction police actually stifle player conflict. But many will say we just want an easy life and we should deal with the consequences of low sec status. We do, day in day out. The point here is to enable players to hand out their own form of justice. We are after all open season to all, why not let players take advantage of that.

I might even agree to no docking mechanics, if they are removed. We need less NPC involvement, especially when players can shoot us without Concord getting involved.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#11 - 2015-12-18 21:57:34 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Mr Mieyli wrote:
I can see the merit in the idea but I wonder if this were to go through what effective security highsec would have remaining. Perhaps players could join a "faction police" where a concord dispatcher would alert them to pirates in highsec systems allowing them a chance to do the job faction police do currently.


This alert is called "local chat."


I'd meant so that you could hunt down players several systems away, local chat only extends to the system the pirate is actually in.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#12 - 2015-12-18 23:44:01 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Mr Mieyli wrote:
I can see the merit in the idea but I wonder if this were to go through what effective security highsec would have remaining. Perhaps players could join a "faction police" where a concord dispatcher would alert them to pirates in highsec systems allowing them a chance to do the job faction police do currently.


This alert is called "local chat."


I'd meant so that you could hunt down players several systems away, local chat only extends to the system the pirate is actually in.


On the first day, CCP created locator agents. And gazed upon them. And saw that they would fulfill this purpose.

We don't need some crummy spy-infested, official, player-staffed NPC corporation to act as Faction Police. Let some masochistic role player form his own "Jita's Finest" corporation.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
#13 - 2015-12-19 00:44:23 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:
I can see the merit in the idea but I wonder if this were to go through what effective security highsec would have remaining. Perhaps players could join a "faction police" where a concord dispatcher would alert them to pirates in highsec systems allowing them a chance to do the job faction police do currently.


Except the 'faction police' - whatever that is? - don't do much now

I'd suggest a mechanic akin to (but not identical to) the faction standings.... if you are -1 you can't enter 1.0 systems without being attacked.... -2 0.9 etc.... I'd suggest the cut off would be 0.5... so the gankers can still gank in eudema and niaja, as this would still set a challenge for traders running to Jita (and might (theorhetically) stimulate the other markets) - though in truth the lack of stmulation, suggests that the current ganking is less effective than it's advocates suggest

Though given you previous thread about generating low sec activity you could take security status to it's logical conclusion and make -10 players liable to attack if they enter 0.1 systems.
Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
#14 - 2015-12-19 00:49:37 UTC
Mag's wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
I do not actually think it will change the behavior for most players with low security status, but I would prefer to see players get more opportunities if there are any low sec status players who want to sit in space and say "Come at me, bro!"
This pretty much. Anything that increases player interaction, is a good thing. I've suggested this very thing in the past. Faction police actually stifle player conflict. But many will say we just want an easy life and we should deal with the consequences of low sec status. We do, day in day out. The point here is to enable players to hand out their own form of justice. We are after all open season to all, why not let players take advantage of that.

I might even agree to no docking mechanics, if they are removed. We need less NPC involvement, especially when players can shoot us without Concord getting involved.


Shouldn't you be playing phone games?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#15 - 2015-12-19 00:50:44 UTC
Or we could have read CCP's roadmap where the NPC's are becoming more involved in Empire life and will have real roaming patrols who will chase suspects from gate to gate and jump to follow them, and won't be as easy to abuse as the current faction spawns are, since people routinely bug them out and then sit around, especially FW people.

And not demand that the NPC empires get even less presence in space.
When in Empire space it should be obvious we are in empire space from their presence and that presence should be of real ships and fits that actually make us care. Not farmable spawns for the 'enemy' players like most MMO's have.
Frayn Bantam
The Chasers
#16 - 2015-12-19 03:47:53 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Or we could have read CCP's roadmap where the NPC's are becoming more involved in Empire life and will have real roaming patrols who will chase suspects from gate to gate and jump to follow them, and won't be as easy to abuse as the current faction spawns are, since people routinely bug them out and then sit around, especially FW people.

And not demand that the NPC empires get even less presence in space.
When in Empire space it should be obvious we are in empire space from their presence and that presence should be of real ships and fits that actually make us care. Not farmable spawns for the 'enemy' players like most MMO's have.

The proposal is all about player-driven content vs NPC-driven content. You're freely attackable below -5 standings, right? So how are people supposed to actually attack them when the automated NPC deathsquads almost always get there first?

Someone on reddit made a good point as well, that bounty hunting could actually become a thing with this (maybe).
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#17 - 2015-12-19 09:40:44 UTC
Faction Police removal is not an option. Revamp depending what would that be, can be discussed.

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
#18 - 2015-12-19 09:47:39 UTC
What puzzles me is why they don't go after the NPCs on the gate - instead of this latest baiting of players, for whom their activities are at best marginal

The NPCs drop some good loot - I made 30million, at wet you pants, run to the nearest station and sell prices, from a small one

It surely is not beyond their wit to organize a fleet to take on the NPCs, while others block the gate and smart-bomb anything that comes through, and the freighters fill up with loot
Mag's
Azn Empire
#19 - 2015-12-19 10:27:19 UTC
Paul Pohl wrote:
Mag's wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
I do not actually think it will change the behavior for most players with low security status, but I would prefer to see players get more opportunities if there are any low sec status players who want to sit in space and say "Come at me, bro!"
This pretty much. Anything that increases player interaction, is a good thing. I've suggested this very thing in the past. Faction police actually stifle player conflict. But many will say we just want an easy life and we should deal with the consequences of low sec status. We do, day in day out. The point here is to enable players to hand out their own form of justice. We are after all open season to all, why not let players take advantage of that.

I might even agree to no docking mechanics, if they are removed. We need less NPC involvement, especially when players can shoot us without Concord getting involved.


Shouldn't you be playing phone games?
I do, every time I use it to post on this forum. Big smile

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Frayn Bantam
The Chasers
#20 - 2015-12-19 10:30:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Frayn Bantam
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:
Faction Police removal is not an option. Revamp depending what would that be, can be discussed.

Care to explain more, such as why it's "not an option", or what kind of revamp you'd have in mind? Pretty worthless post imo.

Paul - attacking gate NPCs causes you to lose faction standing, something I'm not sure that many people want to do. Also the people who would probably take advantage of the whole thing would be the type that actually like shooting players (think provibloc-style) as opposed to shooting rocks or NPCs.
123Next page