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The Problem With Entirely Removing Off-Grid Links

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Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#121 - 2015-12-23 18:24:28 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
I love how most of the argument to keep booster off-grid are essentially the same that were tried to keep assisted fighters. Stuff like they can be killed and you can scan them down. Remember that discussion guys?



I don't recall..... how did that end??

Lol


Let's just say poorly for the supporter of those arguments.

Lol
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#122 - 2015-12-23 20:34:50 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
I love how most of the argument to keep booster off-grid are essentially the same that were tried to keep assisted fighters. Stuff like they can be killed and you can scan them down. Remember that discussion guys?



I don't recall..... how did that end??

Lol


Let's just say poorly for the supporter of those arguments.

Lol


And it was also poorly balanced because it gave the same 5 fighters or bombers to all ships. It didn't scale at all. It would have been much better if CCP would have introduced a module that could have been fit to the ships that allowed fighters to be assisted. Then a frigate could have been limited to say 1, while a battleship could have had a full flight.

Serendipity Lost wrote:


I haven't experimented yet, but if a link ship only has 2 instead of 6 links going.... It might be possible to fit a few weapons and perhaps some tank. Has anyone tried to fit out a command ship that didn't have 6 links in the highs and all cpu IIs in the lows? Would it be possible?


6 link on a command ship is tight fittings, but just by dropping down to 5 links you open up ALOT of fitting options. This isn't a rule, just a big generalization, but each link past 3 links takes 3 slots to fit (The link itself, the command processor, and a co-processor).

Bobman Smith wrote:


And that's where I will agree. ECCmed and its nearly anti probable fit should be tweaked so it cant. If its uncloaked, it should be probable. Fitting a cloak is fine, that turns off links. And all it takes are some afk combat probs to be on Dscan somewhere for an afk booster to think twice about uncloaking.


If it is uncloaked, you can probe it down. If you can't probe it down, you need to get better scanning skills.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Rosal Milag
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#123 - 2015-12-23 21:01:05 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:


And it was also poorly balanced because it gave the same 5 fighters or bombers to all ships. It didn't scale at all. It would have been much better if CCP would have introduced a module that could have been fit to the ships that allowed fighters to be assisted. Then a frigate could have been limited to say 1, while a battleship could have had a full flight.


6 link on a command ship is tight fittings, but just by dropping down to 5 links you open up ALOT of fitting options. This isn't a rule, just a big generalization, but each link past 3 links takes 3 slots to fit (The link itself, the command processor, and a co-processor).


If it is uncloaked, you can probe it down. If you can't probe it down, you need to get better scanning skills.


Fighters did scale. But it was based on your drone control skills and your bandwidth. If a carrier assigned you 1 fighter and you had no drones out, you now have -25 bandwidth. So, if you have 30 and 1 fighter assisted, you can only launch 1 light (5), not the 4 others.

How many links can you fit with at least 50k ehp?

Because an equivalent time in scanning skills is the proper counter to a t3 obg?
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#124 - 2015-12-23 21:48:01 UTC
Rosal Milag wrote:

Fighters did scale. But it was based on your drone control skills and your bandwidth. If a carrier assigned you 1 fighter and you had no drones out, you now have -25 bandwidth. So, if you have 30 and 1 fighter assisted, you can only launch 1 light (5), not the 4 others.

How many links can you fit with at least 50k ehp?

Because an equivalent time in scanning skills is the proper counter to a t3 obg?



It was my understanding that it didn't affect bandwidth at all and it was only based on the number of drones, so a frigate could get 5 fighters assigned to it because that's how many drones your skills could control. Going to have to correct my source on this if that's how it worked...

No idea

It actually takes a much shorter time to train perfect scanning skills compared to a perfect ogb. Also command ships can reach the same difficulty as t3s for probing down. I'm not calling for nerfs or buffs to training time in either category, however you can choose to invest some skills in scanning and probe them down. Otherwise why not just remove all the scanning skills so that everyone can probe down even the most difficult in sigs with ease.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Valacus
Streets of Fire
#125 - 2015-12-23 21:54:10 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Rosal Milag wrote:

Fighters did scale. But it was based on your drone control skills and your bandwidth. If a carrier assigned you 1 fighter and you had no drones out, you now have -25 bandwidth. So, if you have 30 and 1 fighter assisted, you can only launch 1 light (5), not the 4 others.

How many links can you fit with at least 50k ehp?

Because an equivalent time in scanning skills is the proper counter to a t3 obg?



It was my understanding that it didn't affect bandwidth at all and it was only based on the number of drones, so a frigate could get 5 fighters assigned to it because that's how many drones your skills could control. Going to have to correct my source on this if that's how it worked...

No idea

It actually takes a much shorter time to train perfect scanning skills compared to a perfect ogb. Also command ships can reach the same difficulty as t3s for probing down. I'm not calling for nerfs or buffs to training time in either category, however you can choose to invest some skills in scanning and probe them down. Otherwise why not just remove all the scanning skills so that everyone can probe down even the most difficult in sigs with ease.


Or you could just remove off grid boosting.
Rosal Milag
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#126 - 2015-12-23 21:57:11 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Rosal Milag wrote:

Fighters did scale. But it was based on your drone control skills and your bandwidth. If a carrier assigned you 1 fighter and you had no drones out, you now have -25 bandwidth. So, if you have 30 and 1 fighter assisted, you can only launch 1 light (5), not the 4 others.

How many links can you fit with at least 50k ehp?

Because an equivalent time in scanning skills is the proper counter to a t3 obg?



It was my understanding that it didn't affect bandwidth at all and it was only based on the number of drones, so a frigate could get 5 fighters assigned to it because that's how many drones your skills could control. Going to have to correct my source on this if that's how it worked...

No idea

It actually takes a much shorter time to train perfect scanning skills compared to a perfect ogb. Also command ships can reach the same difficulty as t3s for probing down. I'm not calling for nerfs or buffs to training time in either category, however you can choose to invest some skills in scanning and probe them down. Otherwise why not just remove all the scanning skills so that everyone can probe down even the most difficult in sigs with ease.


My point is not in reducing the ease of scanning signatures down.

To demand that all PvP pilots need to either have a scanning alt in fleet or that someone needs to sacrifice fitting or ship to fly a dedicated scanner just to deal with OGB is not a good argument. Putting the fleet further behind any opposition with links running.

I'd like your answer to how easy it is to catch a nullified, t3, cloaking booster with combat probes. Seriously, the rest of us would love to know how you can easily deal with it. And no, dropping probes isn't going to 'scare' OGB away. If they are properly fit, you have to get within at least 1 AU with all 8 probes to have a pray at a warpable return. Set d-scan to 1.5 au range, spam refresh. Do I have 8 probes visible? If nope, keep spamming. If yes, cloak and warp to next safe.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#127 - 2015-12-23 22:20:36 UTC
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
I currently cannot see how a booster can be in a kiting fleet as none of the current ships would be able to keep up. Even with skirmish links.


Bifrost in Squad command. Bifrost in Wing command. Bifrost in Fleet command. Three links running; kite as per usual.


Umm..No. Because that isn't how it works. For your example to work you have to have:

1 FC
2 WC
2 SC (1 in each Wing)
1 SM in each Squad.

So a total of 7 people at the minimum, and 5 of them have to have the proper skills trained to provide boosts and use the warfare link. That's 4 command dessies at a minimum. Good luck getting all of that.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#128 - 2015-12-23 22:24:01 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Rosal Milag wrote:
Rosal Milag wrote:
Oh wait! This is where the skill you claim to have comes in. This isn't making links easy mode, it's making it harder, much harder.


It's almost like they want link ships to be an actively piloted vessel! One that isn't afk watching d-scan. No, that wouldn't make sense, why would CCP want players to be actively at their screen when doing pvp???????????



And on that note, how absurd is it that people find that objectionable? I'm quite looking forward to having a reason to actually fly a link ship on-grid.

When something that is considered a vital necessity by so many is also relegated to solely being flown by alt-characters, that's a pretty big ******* hint that something is utterly borked.


So I guess cynos are borked, eh?
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#129 - 2015-12-23 22:31:33 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Estella Osoka wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Rosal Milag wrote:
Rosal Milag wrote:
Oh wait! This is where the skill you claim to have comes in. This isn't making links easy mode, it's making it harder, much harder.


It's almost like they want link ships to be an actively piloted vessel! One that isn't afk watching d-scan. No, that wouldn't make sense, why would CCP want players to be actively at their screen when doing pvp???????????



And on that note, how absurd is it that people find that objectionable? I'm quite looking forward to having a reason to actually fly a link ship on-grid.

When something that is considered a vital necessity by so many is also relegated to solely being flown by alt-characters, that's a pretty big ******* hint that something is utterly borked.


So I guess cynos are borked, eh?


They really quite are. Most of the features that heavily encourage alt-play are. Some are more damaging than others, and some have no practical solution without a fairly massive paradigm shift in core gameplay.

Are you about to make the invariably idiotic argument that if one borked thing is allowed to exist, so should some other borked thing?

Because you seem like that particular flavor of stupid.

Cynos are part and parcel to cap ships. Short of a fairly massive rework of the entire concept of a jump drive in Eve, they're probably not going anywhere. Such is life.

OGB, though? The only reason that has been allowed to persist for as long as it has was a fairly large technical hurdle that has now, apparently, been resolved, paving the way for a new generation of fleet boosting in which the optimal level of engagement isn't "mostly AFK".

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#130 - 2015-12-23 22:37:39 UTC
I have tested it extensively. I currently have an off-grid booster Tengu with four links. I also have a Virtue-set prober, in a T3 with maxed skills and appropriate fit for combat scanning. I have to get all 8 probes within .5AU to scan down my OGB.

I could make it marginally harder by using the appropriate implant set on the OGB, but have not found it necessary to do that. The pilots I have scanned who use Talon/Jackal/etc. implants tend to take more than one scan within .5AU to go from 99.8 to 100%.

Yes, probing is a counter, but it takes a dedicated pilot, skilled at combat probing, just to negate an OGB alt.

Making probing easier is not the answer. The answer is clear: get rid of off-grid boosting.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Rosal Milag
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#131 - 2015-12-23 22:43:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Rosal Milag
Estella Osoka wrote:
So I guess cynos are borked, eh?


Cynos are far from being borked. Alts only make it easier to do. They are not required, not by a long shot. Cynos are done on alts for two reasons. With three pilots per account, one pilot can successively light 3 cynos with one account, especially in a post Phoebe world. If you are moving something valuable like a titan, alts in npc corps help to disguise intention and ownership.

An OGB is flown by an alt as there is close to zero gameplay aside from "mash d-scan and warp when almost tackled". No one wants to be that guy, away from the fight, listening to comms, not even providing actionable intel like a scout.

When I see cyno's lit on a regular basis by main combat characters in null sec, you can be sure it's not a pure alt job.
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#132 - 2015-12-23 23:48:02 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:

Umm..No. Because that isn't how it works. For your example to work you have to have:

1 FC
2 WC
2 SC (1 in each Wing)
1 SM in each Squad.

So a total of 7 people at the minimum, and 5 of them have to have the proper skills trained to provide boosts and use the warfare link. That's 4 command dessies at a minimum. Good luck getting all of that.

Since when do you need 2 wings for boosts to work? 1 FC, 1 WC, 1 SC, 1 line member ought to do the trick.
Hairpins Blueprint
The Northerners
Pandemic Horde
#133 - 2015-12-24 01:55:52 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
I love how most of the argument to keep booster off-grid are essentially the same that were tried to keep assisted fighters. Stuff like they can be killed and you can scan them down. Remember that discussion guys?



like comparing eagle to a mole.

Hard to comment on this ...


You can probe and kill Links t3 with any thing that does dmg and it's really not that hard.


Fighters were some thing completly diffrent.

Adding carazy dps to interceptors. Man plz SKY net was very diffrent thing. Let's keep this real
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#134 - 2015-12-24 03:46:07 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
Hairpins Blueprint wrote:



You can probe and kill Links t3 with any thing that does dmg and it's really not that hard.




Clearly this is not something you have ever done against a competent opponent.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#135 - 2015-12-24 13:08:25 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Hairpins Blueprint wrote:



You can probe and kill Links t3 with any thing that does dmg and it's really not that hard.




Clearly this is not something you have ever done against a competent opponent.



He just forgot to mention the part where the booster is 1 click away from safety (docking or cloaking) and he forgot to disclose the odds of being able to land on grid and burn to the moving booster before it cloaks or warps to the object it's aligned to.

I think what he meant to say is
1. scanning is easy
2. blowing up an off grid booster is very easy
3. landing on grid, burning to a moving booster and tackling it before it cloaks or warps to a pre-aligned object (station to dock for example) relies soley on the booster pilot being very very bad at eve.

He clearly didn't omit some of the factual details on purpos. It was just an oversight on his part.
The Ginger Sith
Attero Industries
#136 - 2015-12-24 20:30:17 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Hairpins Blueprint wrote:



You can probe and kill Links t3 with any thing that does dmg and it's really not that hard.




Clearly this is not something you have ever done against a competent opponent.



He just forgot to mention the part where the booster is 1 click away from safety (docking or cloaking) and he forgot to disclose the odds of being able to land on grid and burn to the moving booster before it cloaks or warps to the object it's aligned to.

I think what he meant to say is
1. scanning is easy
2. blowing up an off grid booster is very easy
3. landing on grid, burning to a moving booster and tackling it before it cloaks or warps to a pre-aligned object (station to dock for example) relies soley on the booster pilot being very very bad at eve.

He clearly didn't omit some of the factual details on purpos. It was just an oversight on his part.



i personally never had issues finding and catching OGB's and you dont have to catch them to combat them forcing them to warp or cloak is just as effective at disabling them so far i havnt seen a single logical reasoning against OGB just lots of whining and trolling "omg we have to probe them down and kill them to stop them." when thats utter bull shiznit all you have to do is force them to cloak/warp/dock/enter pos shield and you have won since their links will turn off.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#137 - 2015-12-24 22:04:48 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
[

He just forgot to mention the part where the booster is 1 click away from safety (docking or cloaking) and he forgot to disclose the odds of being able to land on grid and burn to the moving booster before it cloaks or warps to the object it's aligned to.

I think what he meant to say is
1. scanning is easy
2. blowing up an off grid booster is very easy
3. landing on grid, burning to a moving booster and tackling it before it cloaks or warps to a pre-aligned object (station to dock for example) relies soley on the booster pilot being very very bad at eve.

He clearly didn't omit some of the factual details on purpos. It was just an oversight on his part.


He also forgot to mention that you need a ship bonused for scanning and high grade virtue implants in order to actually scan them, since they can get to the 'unprobable' level where only a perfect scan at min res with a perfect scanning pilot can get them,
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#138 - 2015-12-25 00:40:04 UTC
the only problem i see is they aren't removing off grid links and nerfing the related skill bonuses quick enough

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Bobman Smith
Solitary Confinement 4 One
#139 - 2015-12-25 06:39:55 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
[

He just forgot to mention the part where the booster is 1 click away from safety (docking or cloaking) and he forgot to disclose the odds of being able to land on grid and burn to the moving booster before it cloaks or warps to the object it's aligned to.

I think what he meant to say is
1. scanning is easy
2. blowing up an off grid booster is very easy
3. landing on grid, burning to a moving booster and tackling it before it cloaks or warps to a pre-aligned object (station to dock for example) relies soley on the booster pilot being very very bad at eve.

He clearly didn't omit some of the factual details on purpos. It was just an oversight on his part.


He also forgot to mention that you need a ship bonused for scanning and high grade virtue implants in order to actually scan them, since they can get to the 'unprobable' level where only a perfect scan at min res with a perfect scanning pilot can get them,



That I will agree is a problem. And a simple counter would be that each link adds to sig radius. They should get rid of the almost impossible means to scan down some of these OGB builds.

T3 immune to remote reps. They should be the most powerful solo/small gang ships but not useful for large fleets as T2 ships should be used. Remove Insurance from game. Ban Frigate Pirate Ships from Novice FW Plexs. Buy me Ice cream please!
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#140 - 2015-12-25 06:47:23 UTC
Bobman Smith wrote:

That I will agree is a problem. And a simple counter would be that each link adds to sig radius. They should get rid of the almost impossible means to scan down some of these OGB builds.

Congratulations, you have now destroyed on grid boosting even more.