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Ideas for resurrecting assault frigates from the dead

Author
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#61 - 2015-12-16 20:40:31 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
D3's heavily nerfed and RLML's converted into a light assault missile/launcher combo might bring AF's into a more useful place, perhaps with the assault line gaining some e-war resistances they are adding too capitals.


Id say its more of a T3D problem than RLML problem tbh. RLML might be counterable through sig reduction and a bigger tank combined with missile EWAR.

That being said, just because supers/capital ships are getting EWAR resistance does not mean other ships should. Supers used to be EWAR immune short of bubbles and infinite point HICs. Now they are not, but are allowed resistance to it. This is specific to capitals and supers, not something that should be thrown around to other ship classes "just because".

By assault line do you mean HACs as well too? Since those are heavy assault cruisers. Do we really wanna go down this road where vagabonds are resistant to webs, cerbs are resistant to damps and the deimos resistant against neuts? The few ways these ships are counterable would be reduced which is not needed in the HAC line, nor is it needed in the AF line.

I speak about this because i still fly AF on occasion. They can still put the hurt on most other frigs and dessies and some cruisers without much issue. Giving them EWAR immunity/resistance will make them just as one sided as t3ds are against AF.


you play devils advocate well, so lets polish the idea a little, how about adding resistance to TP's this synergises with the mwd sig bonus, perhaps other e-war bonuses could be geared more to each ship/race possibly with some base stats being reduced too compensate

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Valacus
Streets of Fire
#62 - 2015-12-16 21:17:09 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
D3's heavily nerfed and RLML's converted into a light assault missile/launcher combo might bring AF's into a more useful place, perhaps with the assault line gaining some e-war resistances they are adding too capitals.


Id say its more of a T3D problem than RLML problem tbh. RLML might be counterable through sig reduction and a bigger tank combined with missile EWAR.

That being said, just because supers/capital ships are getting EWAR resistance does not mean other ships should. Supers used to be EWAR immune short of bubbles and infinite point HICs. Now they are not, but are allowed resistance to it. This is specific to capitals and supers, not something that should be thrown around to other ship classes "just because".

By assault line do you mean HACs as well too? Since those are heavy assault cruisers. Do we really wanna go down this road where vagabonds are resistant to webs, cerbs are resistant to damps and the deimos resistant against neuts? The few ways these ships are counterable would be reduced which is not needed in the HAC line, nor is it needed in the AF line.

I speak about this because i still fly AF on occasion. They can still put the hurt on most other frigs and dessies and some cruisers without much issue. Giving them EWAR immunity/resistance will make them just as one sided as t3ds are against AF.


you play devils advocate well, so lets polish the idea a little, how about adding resistance to TP's this synergises with the mwd sig bonus, perhaps other e-war bonuses could be geared more to each ship/race possibly with some base stats being reduced too compensate


Why does the AF class need any ewar resistance at all? Ewar resistance should be left to supercaps only and that's where it should stay. If AFs need anything it's speed and fitting power. AFs don't need a new niche, just adjustments to the niche they're in. The niche itself, not so much AFs.
Derren Zelway
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#63 - 2015-12-17 10:11:35 UTC
I say they need a buff to their speed and maneuverability to make them feel a bit closer to T1 Frigates. This will help them catch more targets and define them as a tackling frigate that can take enough of a beating for reinforcements to arrive.

I justify this because AF's are relatively difficult to fit for kiting and, at the very least, sacrifice a great deal to do so.

Of course, this might mean they might need to have their MWD signature bloom role bonus turned down to compensate for an increase in their "speed/signature tank" while approaching a target.

As a side note the Retribution and Wolf could probably use some minor fitting increases because it's really a pain to get a fit that's solid.

This, alongside a few minor tweaks to T3D's (probably a slight speed, tank, and mode switching nerf), will put them in a good spot.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2015-12-17 11:57:09 UTC
Polarized weapons heat bonus.

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The NPE IS a big deal

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#65 - 2015-12-17 13:04:00 UTC
Derren Zelway wrote:
I say they need a buff to their speed and maneuverability to make them feel a bit closer to T1 Frigates. This will help them catch more targets and define them as a tackling frigate that can take enough of a beating for reinforcements to arrive.

I justify this because AF's are relatively difficult to fit for kiting and, at the very least, sacrifice a great deal to do so.

Of course, this might mean they might need to have their MWD signature bloom role bonus turned down to compensate for an increase in their "speed/signature tank" while approaching a target.

As a side note the Retribution and Wolf could probably use some minor fitting increases because it's really a pain to get a fit that's solid.

This, alongside a few minor tweaks to T3D's (probably a slight speed, tank, and mode switching nerf), will put them in a good spot.



Interceptors are kiting frigates.

Assault frigates are not kiting frigates.

There are too many ninnies on here trying to make AF into tanky interceptors. CCP already took away their role by giving a mwd bonus instead of AB bonus. The ROLE of the AF his brawling / heavy frigate tackle. Just stop w/ the kiting crap. There are already enough kiting options out there. (pro hint - every other frigate in the game)

TL/DR: Can we please have one frigate class that isn't designed from the ground up to kite and run away from a fight?
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#66 - 2015-12-17 19:33:12 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Polarized weapons heat bonus.


AF can fit polarized weapons without penalty, or penalty is reduced. Could be interesting, but i still have trouble coming up with a reason why AF should be a special case for this.
Derren Zelway
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#67 - 2015-12-17 20:15:12 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Derren Zelway wrote:
I say they need a buff to their speed and maneuverability to make them feel a bit closer to T1 Frigates. This will help them catch more targets and define them as a tackling frigate that can take enough of a beating for reinforcements to arrive.

I justify this because AF's are relatively difficult to fit for kiting and, at the very least, sacrifice a great deal to do so.

Of course, this might mean they might need to have their MWD signature bloom role bonus turned down to compensate for an increase in their "speed/signature tank" while approaching a target.

As a side note the Retribution and Wolf could probably use some minor fitting increases because it's really a pain to get a fit that's solid.

This, alongside a few minor tweaks to T3D's (probably a slight speed, tank, and mode switching nerf), will put them in a good spot.



Interceptors are kiting frigates.

Assault frigates are not kiting frigates.

There are too many ninnies on here trying to make AF into tanky interceptors. CCP already took away their role by giving a mwd bonus instead of AB bonus. The ROLE of the AF his brawling / heavy frigate tackle. Just stop w/ the kiting crap. There are already enough kiting options out there. (pro hint - every other frigate in the game)

TL/DR: Can we please have one frigate class that isn't designed from the ground up to kite and run away from a fight?


I think you may have misread or misinterpreted what I was saying. AF's need speed so they can TACKLE targets. Tackle being a scram/web combination. AF's in no way should be re-purposed to kite like most interceptors do.
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#68 - 2015-12-17 20:20:06 UTC
At first I liked the afterburner / web resistance bonus because it would be helpful in the heavy tackle role. Then I remembered that would make AF absolutely dump on t1 frigates, since their only advantage currently is their superior agility.

I'd prefer to see bonuses which buff their viability in the heavy tackle role without increasing their offensive power against other small ships. Stuff like...

1) Sig radius reduction (I mean come on...the confessor has the same sig in defense mode as an AF).
2) Cap booster cycle/reload time bonus
3) Nos cycle time bonus

As for T3Ds; they are the premiere destroyer - they should dump on AFs. It is their viability against cruisers which I call into question. Let AF fill that heavy tackle role and move T3D back toward anti-support (larger sig radii maybe?).

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#69 - 2015-12-17 20:49:06 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Polarized weapons heat bonus.


One of the defining characteristics of Assault Frigates is full T2 resists. How does a polarized weapon overheating bonus make sense in that regard?

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Flyinghotpocket
Doomheim
#70 - 2015-12-17 22:13:09 UTC
with t3d's being removed from the smalls. af's are back in their proper place as prefered ships. not dead ship class at all. maybe in 0.0 they are dead. but who plays there anyways.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro

Tornii
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2015-12-18 06:24:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tornii
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
you want to introduce a gimmicky counter to ships that drop turrets/dps for neuts designed to counter frigates.

Because there are many more frigates than assault frigs, and while keeping larger ships effective against all other frigate classes this would create a niche role for assault frigs specifically, which was the idea in my proposal for improving their usage.

Flyinghotpocket wrote:
maybe in 0.0 they are dead. but who plays there anyways.

Well done dismissing thousands of players involved in nullsec and looking for more diversity in their environment.

Even if nullsec was empty (which it isn't, and I could invite you to Querious to bear witness to that) that would still be a very poor argument against fixing a ship class for usage.
Otso Bakarti
Doomheim
#72 - 2015-12-18 07:59:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Otso Bakarti
You make a T3 variant, you make the other classes obsolete. It's a waste of bandwidth to have them in the game at all, but for part of the learning curve to abandon them eventually for the T3 variant.

This entire foray was begun because devs interpreted player hunger for new and better "things". If players would settle on "newer and better" being how THEY use what they have on hand to make manifest their ever improving SKILLS, devs wouldn't feel soul bound to keep the players happy with a constant stream of new stuff.

What all these arguments say, pro and con, is having far too many classes of ships to do very few things is the source of any and all imbalance. There is such a thing as too much of a good thing.

There just isn't anything that can be said!

Tornii
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2015-12-18 08:45:19 UTC
Otso Bakarti wrote:
having far too many classes of ships to do very few things is the source of any and all imbalance.

Well said. Even if TDs get nerfed in terms of sig radius /speed /etc they're still fundamentally in the similar role as AFs, and that is the issue in my opinion. It's similar to how nobody (maybe apart from FW players who find themselves in artificially limited terms of ship classes they can choose) even remembers the existence of T1 destroyers now as three other destroyer classes are there for the choosing. And they're so simple and quick to train for the T1 versions can't even claim a 'training and preparation' role for themselves.
It's understandable CCP feel they need to keep bringing new ships to draw players in with juicy announcements but that also makes other ships obsolete unless you make them distinctive via specific, unique, niche roles.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#74 - 2015-12-18 13:47:51 UTC
Tornii wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
you want to introduce a gimmicky counter to ships that drop turrets/dps for neuts designed to counter frigates.

Because there are many more frigates than assault frigs, and while keeping larger ships effective against all other frigate classes this would create a niche role for assault frigs specifically, which was the idea in my proposal for improving their usage...


Aaah!! So here lays the culprit, you are trying to solve a people problem, not a ship or mechanics problem.

For the record, the following is an observation I made over a decade long of observing things and following the forums to see what people like to fly.

You seem to percieve less assault ships in the space you are flying in than you are used to see. Now let me quote a saying that you might have heard not in EVE but here it goes, "out of sight, out of mind".

You follow the forums, so do others and since Cruicible and the giant task of rebalancing all ships in New Eden to appropiate power levels or making them unique with special powers that be you are always prone to see more of those in space.

If you were following this section here, there was a constant stream of ships being looked under the microscope and tons of player feedback and back and forth tweaking to make most of us happy with what we get.

The giant task of tiericide was a success in all departments and there are no bad tech one ships anymore, they are just different.

All of this started with a change to assault ships prior to Crubible and since then they haven't seen much love but it doesn't mean they are bad, they are just "out of sight" for a while now and I have noticed a long time ago that people like to forget things very quickly when you don't remind them all day, every day over and over again.

I am with Stich here because I do think they don't need very much, just some capacitor tweaks and some powergrid adjustments here and there and they are fixed.

What you are trying to is making hover-craft vehicles strong against hum-wees. Everyone else that attempt to strike down an armored jeep with a hover-craft may want to rethink what tools to use for the task.

I do see the kids crying oceans when they try to bash their hazelnut-brains against a mountain and it doesn't work no matter how often they are trying and call for nerfs because reasons™ and stuff™.

Maybe you should not only read the headlines of the rebalancing threads once more but what we were saying in them, since they give out tactical advice on how and where to use them, how to fly and fit them - just igonore the white noise between the good parts.

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This is the law of ship progression!

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Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#75 - 2015-12-18 17:04:37 UTC
Tornii wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
you want to introduce a gimmicky counter to ships that drop turrets/dps for neuts designed to counter frigates.

Because there are many more frigates than assault frigs, and while keeping larger ships effective against all other frigate classes this would create a niche role for assault frigs specifically, which was the idea in my proposal for improving their usage...


Thats just it though. Larger ship classes are not good against frigates unless they design the fit to be anti-frig. This means they are at a disadvantage to other large ships. You are asking for a counter to ships specifically designed to kill frigs but are already at a disadvantage to other big ships.

Assault frigs are heavy tackle, that is their niche. They dont need ewar gimmicks to the only counter large ships have against smaller ships. Especially ships that sacrifice their fitting to specifically kill frigs.

There are fewer AF than standard frigs because t3d are doing thr AF role better. Once t3ds are nerfed with hopefully larger sigs and slower speeds, then AF have a niche to fill again. From there its just tweaking of stats and AF will be in a good spot.

Like ive mentioned earlier, why do AF get special treatment? They are assault frigs. Its a slippery slope to applying the same mentality to HACs which are also categorized as "assault" ships. Like i said to reaver, do you really want to see neut resistant deimos or web resistant vagabonds?

Once t3ds are properly nerfed, then AF wont be obsolete. From there they get tweaked.

For all AF
Increase base cap/recharge
A minor EHP buff

Jaguar - Roll double damage bonus into 1 trait, this frees a slot for maybe a shield boost bonus or velocity/sig/shield HP bonus. Or, redesign jag to be the t2 breacher.

Wolf - Roll double damage bonus into 1 trait. Give a 2nd falloff bonus. Drop utility high for 3rd mid perhaps. Give more CPU.

Enyo - its already a solid ship, mainly EHP/cap buffs and maybe some minor fitting tweaks

Ishkur - remove drone bandwidth trait, just give it 5 drones. Add armor rep amount trait (heavy tackle)

Harpy - Again another fairly solid ship, cap/EHP buffs and fitting tweaks

Hawk - remove shield boost bonus (idk why it got a minmatar bonus and minny got no tank bonuses), replace with shield HP bonus or explosion radius bonus. Increase shield HP to compensate, remove utility high and put into a low. Increase fitting and increase speed a bit.

Vengeance - EHP buff, otherwise i think its a solid ship, arguably the best cap out of all the AF.

Retribution - mainly fitting/EHP/cap buffs with minor speed increase. Maybe have tracking bonus go from 7.5% to 10% per level.

Once t3ds are nerfed, changes similar to these are all thats needed to bring AF back into a good position. Yes, some of my recommendations could push some ships into being strong brawlers or even a kiter, bit they are heavy tackle and need to live up to it. These changes with solidify that role. They could be strong, but not OP like EWAR resistant frigs, and not be just another nerf to bigger ships.
Tornii
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2015-12-18 17:23:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Tornii
elitatwo wrote:
You seem to percieve less assault ships in the space you are flying in than you are used to see. Now let me quote a saying that you might have heard not in EVE but here it goes, "out of sight, out of mind".

While I agree on the general phenomenon of perception you described, you can come to nullsec any time and count how many AFs you encounter on the way. And I'm not even talking about chances of AFs becoming part of roaming/ops fleet compositions of corps and alliances.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#77 - 2015-12-21 12:20:53 UTC
Tornii wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
You seem to percieve less assault ships in the space you are flying in than you are used to see. Now let me quote a saying that you might have heard not in EVE but here it goes, "out of sight, out of mind".

While I agree on the general phenomenon of perception you described, you can come to nullsec any time and count how many AFs you encounter on the way. And I'm not even talking about chances of AFs becoming part of roaming/ops fleet compositions of corps and alliances.



Our wh chain opened up into syndicate yesterday. We started rolling out in command ships and hacs to educate some ratters on the finer points of being careful. 2 jumps in we had to fall back and look elsewhere. There was an inty/AF gang harassing a t3d fleet. They were both moving fast and having a great time (which I think is the point of both eve and syndicate). Anyway there were a lot of assault frigates mixed into both of the fleets. They were ripping around having fun.

t3d are in the process of being adjusted and AF are in a good spot (a great spot once t3d finish their callibration pass). Just keep in mind what they are and what they are not.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#78 - 2015-12-21 12:25:53 UTC
Best way to help AF is to nerf T3D Down to the level of destroyers.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#79 - 2015-12-21 13:21:30 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Best way to help AF is to nerf T3D Down to the level of destroyers.


Yeah, let's. Come to think of it, since the Corax is the most powerful destroyer bar none we should nerf down everything to her powerlevel.

It will only take one day after that release we will see a lot of shiptoasting done. Lowsec - they only place there is in New Eden will be farmvill- errm fixed.

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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#80 - 2015-12-21 19:02:10 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Best way to help AF is to nerf T3D Down to the level of destroyers.



The t3 hate is consuming this guy. He's right, but so much hate.

Show me on the megathron where the t3d touched you!

I have faith in the t3d balance group. Mostly faith in Suitonia. He's been rocking frigates pretty much since the beginning. He has a good handle on stuff and he's like twice as smart as the other guys in the group. His workout videos are totally awesome. His cookbook is on the #1 best seller list. He'll bring home the balance on t3d.