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Fixing battleships
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#101 - 2015-12-24 12:20:13 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Valacus wrote:
1 proteus isn't a problem for 1 battleship

Please name one battleship that can beat a Proteus 1v1 without going significantly higher in price.

(I'm not even sure it can be done if price isn't an object.)



Any BS w/ 1 neut, 1 web and 1 scrambler - which isn't an odd load out for most pvp BS.

As a side note - anyone trying to solo w/ a BS has to accept they won't be able to kill a lot of things. Oddly that goes for any solo ship of any class, but there seems to be an irregularly large number of BS pwnmobile dreamers compared to other hull sizes of pwnmobilers.

Again -BS are big and slow and perform better with some support. That shouldn't and hopefully won't change.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#102 - 2015-12-24 14:02:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Valacus wrote:
1 proteus isn't a problem for 1 battleship

Please name one battleship that can beat a Proteus 1v1 without going significantly higher in price.

(I'm not even sure it can be done if price isn't an object.)


If Price isn't an object, A Vindicator, Barghest, Golem and mach come to mind. But those are very expensive fitting.


But going from, how to say? A Price to performance ratio, the Proteus wins every time. A 500mil Proteus will always beat a 500mil Battleship. Not just in 1v1 but also in terms of pure performance, a Proteus will do a Megathrons job far better then what a mega can. At similar price.

A mega would crush a proteus in a 1v1 quite easily for half the cost, even more so if it has dual web and scram. You'd need to catch the proteus in the first place though. That is why I suggested earlier we get some battleship tackle modules such as an AOE scram or longer range webs.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#103 - 2015-12-24 14:20:39 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Vailen Sere wrote:

You must not check killboards, but we are talking about a caldari with an Armor tank. How often you see one with that?


I once did an armour raven for anti frig work, lots of fun.



I have a RLML Barghest I fit out 2 days ago. I'm just waiting for the chance to use it. You (especially you) need to look into one of these bad girls.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#104 - 2015-12-24 14:38:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Moac Tor wrote:
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Valacus wrote:
1 proteus isn't a problem for 1 battleship

Please name one battleship that can beat a Proteus 1v1 without going significantly higher in price.

(I'm not even sure it can be done if price isn't an object.)


If Price isn't an object, A Vindicator, Barghest, Golem and mach come to mind. But those are very expensive fitting.


But going from, how to say? A Price to performance ratio, the Proteus wins every time. A 500mil Proteus will always beat a 500mil Battleship. Not just in 1v1 but also in terms of pure performance, a Proteus will do a Megathrons job far better then what a mega can. At similar price.

A mega would crush a proteus in a 1v1 quite easily for half the cost, even more so if it has dual web and scram. You'd need to catch the proteus in the first place though. That is why I suggested earlier we get some battleship tackle modules such as an AOE scram or longer range webs.


Even with no one moving and at point blank range the mega barely out brawls a proteus.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#105 - 2015-12-24 15:32:33 UTC
Am I a dimwit for taking a fight with a Proteus in my nanoGeddon?
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#106 - 2015-12-24 16:05:52 UTC
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
Am I a dimwit for taking a fight with a Proteus in my nanoGeddon?



No, you're the guy who will be linking a fat proteus kill in your ops channel for everyone to laugh about.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#107 - 2015-12-24 16:10:44 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Valacus wrote:
1 proteus isn't a problem for 1 battleship

Please name one battleship that can beat a Proteus 1v1 without going significantly higher in price.

(I'm not even sure it can be done if price isn't an object.)


If Price isn't an object, A Vindicator, Barghest, Golem and mach come to mind. But those are very expensive fitting.


But going from, how to say? A Price to performance ratio, the Proteus wins every time. A 500mil Proteus will always beat a 500mil Battleship. Not just in 1v1 but also in terms of pure performance, a Proteus will do a Megathrons job far better then what a mega can. At similar price.

A mega would crush a proteus in a 1v1 quite easily for half the cost, even more so if it has dual web and scram. You'd need to catch the proteus in the first place though. That is why I suggested earlier we get some battleship tackle modules such as an AOE scram or longer range webs.


Even with no one moving and at point blank range the mega barely out brawls a proteus.



1 heavy nuet will make the proteus struggle to provide any damage after 2 cycles. A proteus doesn't have the cargo space have enough cap charges to save it (conversly - the mega does). I'll put my isk on a reasonably fit mega every time.

I recommend you delete your copy of EFT (or whatever) and actually go pvp before you weigh in on things you clearly don't understand.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#108 - 2015-12-24 16:58:43 UTC
I wasnt arguing that a purpose fit BS can kill a T3 with a generalised fit. I was telling moac tor that hes never put a typical mega against a typical proteus. Cause if he did he'd realise that a mega does not stomp a proteus in a brawl, let alone all the other things the T3 has going for it.

As for your reply, i seem to have a broader knowledge of BS's and the T3's than yourself since the 'reasonably fit mega' comes with no neuts. The only reason it would is if you were expecting to need neuts so badly you'd drop a turret hard point. Like wise, the proteus probably wouldnt even have the mid slots to fit a cap booster. Typical brawl fits have three mids.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#109 - 2015-12-24 17:18:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
Daichi Yamato wrote:
I wasnt arguing that a purpose fit BS can kill a T3 with a generalised fit. I was telling moac tor that hes never put a typical mega against a typical proteus. Cause if he did he'd realise that a mega does not stomp a proteus in a brawl, let alone all the other things the T3 has going for it.

As for your reply, i seem to have a broader knowledge of BS's and the T3's than yourself since the 'reasonably fit mega' comes with no neuts. The only reason it would is if you were expecting to need neuts so badly you'd drop a turret hard point. Like wise, the proteus probably wouldnt even have the mid slots to fit a cap booster. Typical brawl fits have three mids.

You need to try using a battleship in solo PvP before parroting what you've been told. You don't even need a neut, if the proteus is double webbed and going no where then the mega will be hitting it with 1500+ dps. The trick with battleships is you overwhelm with DPS, and the mega is particularly good at doing that. The Proteus will melt whether active or buffer tanked.

If the Proteus is AB fit and gets under the megathron guns then it has a chance, although most are MWD scram web fit, and so the dual webs should be enough for it to hit at pretty much full damage.

The point is if you know what you are doing with a battleship it can be devastating, most people don't know what they are doing though.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#110 - 2015-12-24 17:27:01 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:



I have a RLML Barghest I fit out 2 days ago. I'm just waiting for the chance to use it. You (especially you) need to look into one of these bad girls.

Its a ship I have never had the chance to try out in my own special way yet.

[Raven, Nevermore]
1600mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
1600mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

500MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive
Large Micro Jump Drive
Stasis Webifier II
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Disruptor II
Warp Scrambler II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II,Cap Booster 400

Heavy Infectious Scoped Energy Neutralizer
Heavy Infectious Scoped Energy Neutralizer
Heavy Infectious Scoped Energy Neutralizer
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II,Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II,Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II,Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II,Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Give it a try, brilliant fun.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#111 - 2015-12-24 17:43:01 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
I wasnt arguing that a purpose fit BS can kill a T3 with a generalised fit. I was telling moac tor that hes never put a typical mega against a typical proteus. Cause if he did he'd realise that a mega does not stomp a proteus in a brawl, let alone all the other things the T3 has going for it.

As for your reply, i seem to have a broader knowledge of BS's and the T3's than yourself since the 'reasonably fit mega' comes with no neuts. The only reason it would is if you were expecting to need neuts so badly you'd drop a turret hard point. Like wise, the proteus probably wouldnt even have the mid slots to fit a cap booster. Typical brawl fits have three mids.


If I'm taking a mega out solo I would fit a neut
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#112 - 2015-12-24 17:54:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
baltec1 wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
I wasnt arguing that a purpose fit BS can kill a T3 with a generalised fit. I was telling moac tor that hes never put a typical mega against a typical proteus. Cause if he did he'd realise that a mega does not stomp a proteus in a brawl, let alone all the other things the T3 has going for it.

As for your reply, i seem to have a broader knowledge of BS's and the T3's than yourself since the 'reasonably fit mega' comes with no neuts. The only reason it would is if you were expecting to need neuts so badly you'd drop a turret hard point. Like wise, the proteus probably wouldnt even have the mid slots to fit a cap booster. Typical brawl fits have three mids.


If I'm taking a mega out solo I would fit a neut

Or use a Tempest. Equivalent DPS and has two spare high slots for neuts and an extra mid for a cap booster etc. The tank is a little on the low side though for a BS.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#113 - 2015-12-24 18:08:12 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
I think Daichi and Moac need to have a couple of duels and settle this thing.

Edit - of course it won't be fair after Daichi loses his first Level 5 subsystem skill.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#114 - 2015-12-24 18:26:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
FT Diomedes wrote:
I think Daichi and Moac need to have a couple of duels and settle this thing.

Edit - of course it won't be fair after Daichi loses his first Level 5 subsystem skill.

I'd put a lot of money on the Proteus winning myself, if the fits are equal in both value and purpose. Quite frankly I don't understand how a cruiser with battleship hit points and almost battleship damage but way better tracking can lose to a battleship. It'd have to be a pirate faction battleship which has a huge DPS advantage--even then it depends on whether or not the Proteus fit allows the battleship to even score any hits.


If we want to talk 1v1 fits, there are some battleship fits that can go up against a generic strategic cruiser, but there are plenty of strategic cruiser fits that can stomp nearly any battleship in a 1v1 simply by combining disruptive EWAR with DPS.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
unidenify
Deaf Armada
#115 - 2015-12-24 18:58:03 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:



I have a RLML Barghest I fit out 2 days ago. I'm just waiting for the chance to use it. You (especially you) need to look into one of these bad girls.

Its a ship I have never had the chance to try out in my own special way yet.

[Raven, Nevermore]
1600mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
1600mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

500MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive
Large Micro Jump Drive
Stasis Webifier II
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Disruptor II
Warp Scrambler II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II,Cap Booster 400

Heavy Infectious Scoped Energy Neutralizer
Heavy Infectious Scoped Energy Neutralizer
Heavy Infectious Scoped Energy Neutralizer
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II,Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II,Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II,Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II,Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Give it a try, brilliant fun.


I will give it shot sometime later


Overall I agree with baltec1 about T3 being too strong that make BS seem pointless.

I flow Caldari Navy BS for null rats, and it give barely extra benefit over Tengu that is not enough to make up for higher risk I get for flown BS in null (which later bite me)

nearly no experience with turret BS, I want to drop some of my issue with Missile BS
I believe majority of issue involved with Missile BS can be resolved if we fix issue around Torpedo being terrible weapon system.
I am torn about Cruise missile because while it has meh damage application, it can deliver this amount of firepower way further than any turret weapon can hope to reach Thus Cruise's weak damage application is balanced by its extreme range.

RHML system, I guess either enable Missile BS's range bonus to apply to Heavy similar to RLML and Missile Cruiser. Not exacly new info that Heavy missile is terrible too
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#116 - 2015-12-24 19:01:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
I think Daichi and Moac need to have a couple of duels and settle this thing.

Edit - of course it won't be fair after Daichi loses his first Level 5 subsystem skill.

I'd put a lot of money on the Proteus winning myself, if the fits are equal in both value and purpose. Quite frankly I don't understand how a cruiser with battleship hit points and almost battleship damage but way better tracking can lose to a battleship. It'd have to be a pirate faction battleship which has a huge DPS advantage--even then it depends on whether or not the Proteus fit allows the battleship to even score any hits.


If we want to talk 1v1 fits, there are some battleship fits that can go up against a generic strategic cruiser, but there are plenty of strategic cruiser fits that can stomp nearly any battleship in a 1v1 simply by combining disruptive EWAR with DPS.

True, if you specifically gear a strategic cruiser to kill a battleship then it can be very tough for the battleship. A RHML rattlesnake will solo any t3 though for less ISK. But then I think the RS is probably overpowered compared to other BSs.

In terms of balance BS definitely still need a slght buffs, and T3s need some slight nerfs, I'd like CCP to take a gradual approach in both cases. I was picking up on the specific example earlier though of a standard Mega vs standard Proteus, in which case the Mega should win.
Lyra Gerie
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#117 - 2015-12-24 19:24:58 UTC
From personal history i can say, the proteus can easily be beaten by a geddon and a little less easily by BS with any amount of neuts less then said geddon.

Even a typical combat prot only carries a web, scram and a prop mod, they have no ability to regen cap outside of fleets either and the only comp that can fit a cap booster gimps the rest of the ship.

It takes a minute, but during said minute your face goes from "Yay im gonna kill this geddon!" to "wait, ****, I cant cycle my guns anymore, I'm going to lose..."

BS need love, but in this case they're not under powered in a 1v1 against a proteus.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#118 - 2015-12-25 00:56:34 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:

You need to try using a battleship in solo PvP before parroting what you've been told. You don't even need a neut, if the proteus is double webbed and going no where then the mega will be hitting it with 1500+ dps. The trick with battleships is you overwhelm with DPS, and the mega is particularly good at doing that. The Proteus will melt whether active or buffer tanked.

If the Proteus is AB fit and gets under the megathron guns then it has a chance, although most are MWD scram web fit, and so the dual webs should be enough for it to hit at pretty much full damage.

The point is if you know what you are doing with a battleship it can be devastating, most people don't know what they are doing though.


Its actually better for the mega to pull range in this instance. But if you thought the mega would crush a proteus in a straight dps race you'd be surprised. Give the proteus T2 rigs and it'd outlast the mega.

Rock paper scissor discussions about this ship vs that fit aside, t3s have a better time in fights that should be ideal for battleships but enjoy extra flexibility and damage mitigation to boot. 'geddon all the things' and 1v1s dont take away from how much T3's do infringe on the role of battleships too much and the 'cost balance' has been ineffective at preventing these ships from becoming common doctrines.

Certain subsystems could be toned down to make them less suitable in slugfests but keep (or even improve) their flexibility. They'd still have plenty going for them and they wouldnt all of a sudden disappear if they lost some dps and ehp.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#119 - 2015-12-25 02:08:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:

You need to try using a battleship in solo PvP before parroting what you've been told. You don't even need a neut, if the proteus is double webbed and going no where then the mega will be hitting it with 1500+ dps. The trick with battleships is you overwhelm with DPS, and the mega is particularly good at doing that. The Proteus will melt whether active or buffer tanked.

If the Proteus is AB fit and gets under the megathron guns then it has a chance, although most are MWD scram web fit, and so the dual webs should be enough for it to hit at pretty much full damage.

The point is if you know what you are doing with a battleship it can be devastating, most people don't know what they are doing though.


Its actually better for the mega to pull range in this instance. But if you thought the mega would crush a proteus in a straight dps race you'd be surprised. Give the proteus T2 rigs and it'd outlast the mega.

Rock paper scissor discussions about this ship vs that fit aside, t3s have a better time in fights that should be ideal for battleships but enjoy extra flexibility and damage mitigation to boot. 'geddon all the things' and 1v1s dont take away from how much T3's do infringe on the role of battleships too much and the 'cost balance' has been ineffective at preventing these ships from becoming common doctrines.

Certain subsystems could be toned down to make them less suitable in slugfests but keep (or even improve) their flexibility. They'd still have plenty going for them and they wouldnt all of a sudden disappear if they lost some dps and ehp.

It doesn't matter, even with T2 rigs the Mega still out damages the Proteus by around 70% and out tanks it by a small margin.
With dual webs that Proteus (unless it is fitted with AB) is going a massive 32m/s; so basically nowhere. I know it is against the current dogma but battleships are actually very decent if you know what you are doing.

And by the way, I'm still saying T3s need a nerf and BS need a buff because a BS should wipe the floor with a strategic cruiser in a slug fest even more so due to the fact that it takes skill and knowledge to effectively apply BS damage.
Vailen Sere
State War Academy
Caldari State
#120 - 2015-12-26 01:12:22 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Valacus wrote:
1 proteus isn't a problem for 1 battleship

Please name one battleship that can beat a Proteus 1v1 without going significantly higher in price.

(I'm not even sure it can be done if price isn't an object.)


Change T3 to something more kitey. Say a VNI Versus a Raven, or a gheddon, or a megathron. you'll never get in point range.