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End the RLML Plague!
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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2015-12-09 02:35:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
RLML are fine. The only RLML ship that's problematic is the Orthrus, largely because of what it becomes when linked. No other RLML ship can kill a properly fit buffer cruiser before hitting the reload wall. 35 second reload is a huge downside.
-snip-
They're a free kill for anything with a 1600 plate or a few LSE's.

They can maintain DPS for over 2 minutes yet only have to reload for 35 seconds, which means about 20% downtime. Their sustained DPS is not much lower than heavy missile sustained DPS yet has far better application. If that 35 seconds of downtime is battle-defining, what about the 148 seconds before it, when the ship is using light missiles to deal more applied DPS than it would with heavy assault missiles?

No, your claim does not even come close to matching reality. Even against what RLMLs do poorly against, they're still better than heavy missiles.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Chaotix Morwen
Church Of BDSM
#42 - 2015-12-09 11:36:05 UTC
RLML are hardly that nasty vs friggies, it is quite easy for any frig to speed/sig tank the light missiles, unless you're flying some bricky thing made to sit still (why are flying a silly kiddy ship then). I believe your issue is that there is a weapon system that a decent sized hull can use that counteracts your absurd signature radius.

If you're in a frigate, and you die to an anti-frigate weapon, that is working as intended.

On the note of cruisers being killed by RLML, an all lvl 5 Caracel (no implants or bling) fit for max damage does 1051 damage per volley, it holds 20 missiles, so its max damage per 35 seconds is 21020...it is not terribly hard to get the majority of t1 cruiser hulls EHP well past that, if your ship is unable to kill the Caracel within that time you may need to reconsider your tactics. Ofc if you design your cruiser to fly like a frigate, it will be slaughtered by an anti-frigate weapon.

The same Caracel applies 122 dps vs a 1mn afterburner Tristan and 78 dps vs a 10mn afterburner Tristan, for an overpowered weapon system that seems very weak, dont most frigates apply more dps?
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2015-12-09 11:51:34 UTC
Chaotix Morwen wrote:
The same Caracel applies 122 dps vs a 1mn afterburner Tristan and 78 dps vs a 10mn afterburner Tristan, for an overpowered weapon system that seems very weak, dont most frigates apply more dps?

You're assuming they aren't using a target painter or stasis webifier.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#44 - 2015-12-09 12:03:03 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

You're assuming they aren't using a target painter or stasis webifier.

At which point what are you doing walking your frigate into web range on an anti frigate fitted cruiser, and you deserve to die a horrible death.
HM's suck yes, and badly need an application buff so they apply properly vs cruisers (66% application vs a cruiser with no prop mod is about the average mitigation vs HM's for T1 cruisers, let alone T2/Pirate). At which point RLML's won't be so prolific since they won't be the ideal cruiser/bc weapon for fighting anything smaller than a BS.
But really, as I said earlier, there is nothing wrong with frigates dying to anti frigate fits.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2015-12-09 12:06:06 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
At which point what are you doing walking your frigate into web range on an anti frigate fitted cruiser, and you deserve to die a horrible death.

It's not that hard to use a target painter and precision missiles.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Chaotix Morwen
Church Of BDSM
#46 - 2015-12-09 12:24:29 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Chaotix Morwen wrote:
The same Caracel applies 122 dps vs a 1mn afterburner Tristan and 78 dps vs a 10mn afterburner Tristan, for an overpowered weapon system that seems very weak, dont most frigates apply more dps?

You're assuming they aren't using a target painter or stasis webifier.


With a web on the 1mn fit the applied dps is 228 dps, with a painter it is 152 dps, both it is 283 dps.

With a web on the 10mn fit the applied dps is 140 dps, with a painter it is 97 dps, both is is 182 dps.

So as long as the Caracel devotes everything it has to damage and application, giving it less tank and speed than a frigate it has the opportunity to apply a little over standard frigate dps for 48 seconds as long as it hasnt been missile disrupted.

I still fail to see how RLML are overpowered? In this scenario the Caracel will be capable of fighting a Tristan on similar terms, It doesn't perform any better than a frigate and if it faces another cruiser it will definitely lose.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#47 - 2015-12-09 13:52:18 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
At which point what are you doing walking your frigate into web range on an anti frigate fitted cruiser, and you deserve to die a horrible death.

It's not that hard to use a target painter and precision missiles.


Well.

It is hard to find the room for this on a ship dedicated to taking out the trash. Just look at the corax......
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2015-12-09 14:07:51 UTC
Chaotix Morwen wrote:
So as long as the Caracel devotes everything it has to damage and application, giving it less tank and speed than a frigate it has the opportunity to apply a little over standard frigate dps for 48 seconds as long as it hasnt been missile disrupted.

I still fail to see how RLML are overpowered? In this scenario the Caracel will be capable of fighting a Tristan on similar terms, It doesn't perform any better than a frigate and if it faces another cruiser it will definitely lose.

You're assuming all frigate weapons apply damage better, but they really don't. Any frigate that tanks light missiles so well also tanks other frigate weapons. Only way a frigate is going to apply that kind of DPS to that Tristan is by facebrawling it with a webber.

And how exactly is the Caracal going to "definitely lose" to a cruiser with that fit, when its sustained DPS isn't reduced significantly below heavy missile amounts by the down time? With T2 launchers it can boost its DPS even further against a cruiser by using fury missiles, can't do that with heavies unless you're fighting a battleship or you have a webber.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#49 - 2015-12-09 14:13:33 UTC
Rough historical timeline:

Drams were a plague to pvp - nerfed
AF needed some love - they got some
New tier2 T1 dessies came out - mildly OK, but nothing to woot about
ASB came out - some frigs became a bit too much (not enough to cry nerf, but still)
Drone modules came out - a lot of ships got wonky, frigs to a lesser extent, but worm comes to mind as wootable
Inties also got bubble immunity - null became polluted with them
T3 dessy came out - OMG the complain attached to them (Have some faith in Suitonia for a good balance on these - Hi Sweety!)

NOW: you just got 3 new frigates/dessy to play with. Logi frig will probably put down most RLML platforms. It's still a great time in eve to fly frigates and destroyers!

There was a gradual build in of OGB and 'mandatory' pirate implants for FW frig pilots over the last year or 2 solidifying frigate/T3 dessy dominance on the field. (Dominance, not broken or OP - they were in a really really good spot, so a lot of folks were flying them).


Several complaints came out of this. Inty immunity was OP, solo LS frig pvp was dead, OGB is OP and ruining the game and so on. Which singular or possibly combination of these things (complaints) brought the RLML into being - not sure. There was a call for an anti-frigate cruiser weapons system. You'd need to have a spai on the inside to actually nail down the actual impetus for the introduction of the Rapid launchers into the game. They are here, so for the most part tracing out their path to existance is moot at this point.

My opinion is that they are ballanced. Frigate pilots have to think before fighting up a weight class. RLML are a good hard counter to both frigates and destroyers. It's not OP. If your frigate gang runs into a cyclone or orthrus - you should probably move on. ASB + RLML will undoubtably put your ships in the scrap yard. Same frig gang runs into 3 thorax - have at it. Just because there are some RLML cruisers you don't have a chance against doesn't make them unbalance. Take the orthrus - I flew the crap out of it for a while - it felt like cheating. It was OP and it just got wonked back in line a bit.

If every cruiser/BC got a bonus to RLML then there would be a balanc issue. RLML just pushed frigates/destroyers from a really really good place back to a normal or possibly just good spot.
Chaotix Morwen
Church Of BDSM
#50 - 2015-12-09 14:35:53 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Chaotix Morwen wrote:
So as long as the Caracel devotes everything it has to damage and application, giving it less tank and speed than a frigate it has the opportunity to apply a little over standard frigate dps for 48 seconds as long as it hasnt been missile disrupted.

I still fail to see how RLML are overpowered? In this scenario the Caracel will be capable of fighting a Tristan on similar terms, It doesn't perform any better than a frigate and if it faces another cruiser it will definitely lose.

You're assuming all frigate weapons apply damage better, but they really don't. Any frigate that tanks light missiles so well also tanks other frigate weapons. Only way a frigate is going to apply that kind of DPS to that Tristan is by facebrawling it with a webber.

And how exactly is the Caracal going to "definitely lose" to a cruiser with that fit, when its sustained DPS isn't reduced significantly below heavy missile amounts by the down time? With T2 launchers it can boost its DPS even further against a cruiser by using fury missiles, can't do that with heavies unless you're fighting a battleship or you have a webber.


So what you are saying is that to apply the same dps as a RLML Caracel using a web on a frigate, is for a frigate to use a web on a frigate? Isn't that literally the same scenario?

The sustained dps of a max damage Caracel using Scourge Fury Light Missiles is 254 dps. The sustained dps of a max damage Caracel using Scourge Fury Heavy Missiles is 357 dps. Thats a difference of about 28% a significant amount.

The RLML Caracel will apply its 21020 damage very well to an enemy cruiser, however as I have stated above it has inferior tank due to fitting pure damage and application for the sake of killing frigates, giving it a max EHP of 16k, most cruisers have more than 24k ehp thus it cannot beat them in one burst and will always lose the dps war. I feel safe in concluding that my scenario still stands true, an anti-frig Caracel will always lose to a properly fit cruiser.

As a side not I do not believe Heavy Missiles are a good comparison for RLML, these missiles are notorious for being the weakest missiles in the game. Perhaps we should use another cruiser weapon that is known for being effective in its role as a comparison, if you are comparing the weakest weapon to a functional weapon no wonder you think it is so powerful.
Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2015-12-09 15:09:38 UTC
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
Rapid Light Missile Launchers are almost the perfect weapon system for fighting Frigates. They're way too good. The reload time isn't enough of a downside for the many, many upsides and benefits they have.

When a weapon system allows a Battlecruiser to WTFPWN a Frigate, there's something very, very wrong.

Be it explosion velocity or radius, or a straight damage nerf per volley, they need some kind of drawback to bring them back into line with every other weapon system.

The missile tracking disruptors will certainly help, on those rare frigate fits that can spare the midslot to fit a specific counter to a specific weapon system.

Currently, the ONLY thing a frigate can do against an RLML fit *anything* is hope they can get away before a couple of volleys drops them.

Personally, I reckon just get rid of them altogether.


So anti-frig sized weapons are actually good vs frigates. I can´t see the problem in that.

-1
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#52 - 2015-12-09 15:35:59 UTC
Problem with RLML is the only counter play for a frig pilot is avoid it all together. They're much stronger than their turret counterparts with best-in-class tracking. Electron blasters will still need a web or two to apply decently to a sig-tanking frig. RLM have no problem.

What really needs to happen is a slight reduction in application against smaller targets for light missiles, and a slight increase in application against medium targets for heavies/HAMs (without increasing effectiveness against frigs). That might require tweaking the missile damage formula itself, or maybe just the missile alpha / ROF / damage reduction factor.

Khan Wrenth wrote:
Indirect nerf already incoming with the missile disrupters. One on a frigate should sufficiently tip odds in its' favor.

Lol. No it won't. And even if it does, most frigs don't have the spare slot for it. They only way to make that mod remotely useful is to combine it with the tracking disruptor and make it scriptable for either turrets or missiles. There's just no point in fitting it on the off chance that you'll fight a missile ship when it's completely wasted for anything else. While they're at it they should add a drone script (maybe AOE to make them shoot at random targets including each other? Roll) cause screw drones!

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#53 - 2015-12-09 15:39:52 UTC
Cara Forelli wrote:
Problem with RLML is the only counter play for a frig pilot is avoid it all together. They're much stronger than their turret counterparts with best-in-class tracking. Electron blasters will still need a web or two to apply decently to a sig-tanking frig. RLM have no problem.

What really needs to happen is a slight reduction in application against smaller targets for light missiles, and a slight increase in application against medium targets for heavies/HAMs (without increasing effectiveness against frigs). That might require tweaking the missile damage formula itself, or maybe just the missile alpha / ROF / damage reduction factor.

Khan Wrenth wrote:
Indirect nerf already incoming with the missile disrupters. One on a frigate should sufficiently tip odds in its' favor.

Lol. No it won't. And even if it does, most frigs don't have the spare slot for it. They only way to make that mod remotely useful is to combine it with the tracking disruptor and make it scriptable for either turrets or missiles. There's just no point in fitting it on the off chance that you'll fight a missile ship when it's completely wasted for anything else. While they're at it they should add a drone script (maybe AOE to make them shoot at random targets including each other? Roll) cause screw drones!



The problem with smartbombs is the only counter play for a frig pilot is to avoid them all together.

Are these next on your list? What is next after that?
Chaotix Morwen
Church Of BDSM
#54 - 2015-12-09 16:01:57 UTC
Cara Forelli wrote:
Problem with RLML is the only counter play for a frig pilot is avoid it all together. They're much stronger than their turret counterparts with best-in-class tracking. Electron blasters will still need a web or two to apply decently to a sig-tanking frig. RLM have no problem.

What really needs to happen is a slight reduction in application against smaller targets for light missiles, and a slight increase in application against medium targets for heavies/HAMs (without increasing effectiveness against frigs). That might require tweaking the missile damage formula itself, or maybe just the missile alpha / ROF / damage reduction factor.


RLML are an anti-frigate weapon system, if a frigate goes head to head with them it should be expected for it to have great difficulty in surviving the fight. They are not stronger than their turret counterparts, having less dps than comparable turret fits. As i have stated earlier:
Chaotix Morwen wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Chaotix Morwen wrote:
The same Caracel applies 122 dps vs a 1mn afterburner Tristan and 78 dps vs a 10mn afterburner Tristan, for an overpowered weapon system that seems very weak, dont most frigates apply more dps?

You're assuming they aren't using a target painter or stasis webifier.


With a web on the 1mn fit the applied dps is 228 dps, with a painter it is 152 dps, both it is 283 dps.

With a web on the 10mn fit the applied dps is 140 dps, with a painter it is 97 dps, both is is 182 dps.


RLML do struggle to damage sig tanked frigates, and do rely on webs just as much as any turreted ship. Their primary benefit is transversal is not a factor for them, whereas turrets are unusable once a friggie comes in close.

RLML apply the same dps as a frigate vs frigates, if nerfed they will be inferior and that will just make more people fly silly little ships over larger hulls for the sake of ever hitting anything.

You feel that HAMs and HMs are unable to apply adequately to cruiser sized hulls but need no help vs small hulls? I cant quite understand this logic, would you mind explaining it to me?
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#55 - 2015-12-09 16:02:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
At which point what are you doing walking your frigate into web range on an anti frigate fitted cruiser, and you deserve to die a horrible death.

It's not that hard to use a target painter and precision missiles.



Have you tried? Remember precision are shorter ranged thus even easier to simply outrun.

A caracal with a PWNAGE and precision heavy does a mighty 37 dps to an interceptor.

It does all of 122 DPS using RLML, ignoring reload. You can do better with a rupture. Without the painter it is 30 and 101 respectively.

Range is an issue, granted. But that caracal will DIE to another cruiser because of reloads, the rupture will not. Alsop consider that if you have EM loaded and want to shoot an armor or T2 minmatar boat, well you're not swapping ammo. Suck up wet fish hits until it reloads or do 0 DPS for an up front reload.

Point is, 100-120 DPS from a ship made to hurt frigates really isn't all that. You can fit a harpy to tank 100ish for 1-4 minutes if you really wanted.


Quite honestly I don't get what all the tears about the small things are. I can fit gunboats to mulch frigates just fine too, who also do ok vs cruisers.


Edit: Should probably mention a HML caracal with triple BCUs has nasty fitting problems as soon as it goes to look at a tank.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#56 - 2015-12-09 16:15:11 UTC
Cara Forelli wrote:

What really needs to happen is a slight reduction in application against smaller targets for light missiles, and a slight increase in application against medium targets for heavies/HAMs (without increasing effectiveness against frigs). That might require tweaking the missile damage formula itself, or maybe just the missile alpha / ROF / damage reduction factor.


Terrible suggestion, at least on the part of nerfing light missile application.
You must remember that light missiles are a frig class weapon.
Yes, a cruiser can use them inside rapid launchers, however, if you nerf light missiles because of rapid launchers, you nerf frigates because of cruisers... That's a terrible balance strategy.

This is essentially what happened with heavy missiles.
Drake and tengu had insane range, tengu had insane DPS.
CCP nerfed drake and tengu range.
Then, instead of nerfing tengu damage, they nerfed HML damage, application, and range.

So, cruisers got nerfed because of a battlecruiser and a cruiser that honestly should be considered a battlecruiser.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#57 - 2015-12-09 16:22:33 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
At which point what are you doing walking your frigate into web range on an anti frigate fitted cruiser, and you deserve to die a horrible death.

It's not that hard to use a target painter and precision missiles.



Have you tried? Remember precision are shorter ranged thus even easier to simply outrun.

A caracal with a PWNAGE and precision heavy does a mighty 37 dps to an interceptor.

It does all of 122 DPS using RLML, ignoring reload. You can do better with a rupture. Without the painter it is 30 and 101 respectively.

Range is an issue, granted. But that caracal will DIE to another cruiser because of reloads, the rupture will not. Alsop consider that if you have EM loaded and want to shoot an armor or T2 minmatar boat, well you're not swapping ammo. Suck up wet fish hits until it reloads or do 0 DPS for an up front reload.

Point is, 100-120 DPS from a ship made to hurt frigates really isn't all that. You can fit a harpy to tank 100ish for 1-4 minutes if you really wanted.


Quite honestly I don't get what all the tears about the small things are. I can fit gunboats to mulch frigates just fine too, who also do ok vs cruisers.


Edit: Should probably mention a HML caracal with triple BCUs has nasty fitting problems as soon as it goes to look at a tank.


I will say, RLMLs should not receive application and range bonuses from their hulls, except in the special case of the orthrus.

The rest of what you said is correct.

On the last part of fitting HMLs on a Caracal, I believe this is because HMLs and HAMs are balanced around BCs.
IMHO, I think their needs to be a new set of missile systems built specifically for cruisers.
With that done, we can now balance HMLs and HAMs around BCs without effecting cruisers.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#58 - 2015-12-09 17:09:52 UTC
delete RLML's and add a light Assault launcher that gives you a better tracking easier fitting option, with reduced dps compared too HAM's for cruisers

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Chaotix Morwen
Church Of BDSM
#59 - 2015-12-09 17:41:34 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
delete RLML's and add a light Assault launcher that gives you a better tracking easier fitting option, with reduced dps compared too HAM's for cruisers


So something like Dual 180mm AutoCannons compared to 425mm AutoCannons? Or you know we could actually have missiles be different from turrets! As it stands RLML already perform the same function of the low end turrets, just with the unique mechanic of burst damage instead of sustained damage. Isn't it better to have more unique options than just the same thing repeated for every weapon system?
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#60 - 2015-12-09 17:47:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Cara Forelli
Serendipity Lost wrote:
The problem with smartbombs is the only counter play for a frig pilot is to avoid them all together.

Are these next on your list? What is next after that?

Um...no. A large t2 smart bomb has 6 km range. I've literally held a smart bombing rohk for several minutes with a scram frigate. I'm not saying that RLM shouldn't be good against frigs. I just don't think they should be quite as good as they are, considering none of other weapon systems compare.

Chaotix Morwen wrote:
You feel that HAMs and HMs are unable to apply adequately to cruiser sized hulls but need no help vs small hulls? I cant quite understand this logic, would you mind explaining it to me?

Sure. Application against cruisers is pretty bad compared to other medium weapon systems (unless you use a web but most of the missile ships are designed to make that a fairly large compromise). However I don't think it should be improved against frigates just like I don't think the tracking should be improved so heavy neutron blasters can hit frigs easily without assistance. Cruisers should apply poorly to frigs unless they fit specifically for it.

Joe Risalo wrote:
Cara Forelli wrote:

What really needs to happen is a slight reduction in application against smaller targets for light missiles, and a slight increase in application against medium targets for heavies/HAMs (without increasing effectiveness against frigs). That might require tweaking the missile damage formula itself, or maybe just the missile alpha / ROF / damage reduction factor.


Terrible suggestion, at least on the part of nerfing light missile application.
You must remember that light missiles are a frig class weapon.
Yes, a cruiser can use them inside rapid launchers, however, if you nerf light missiles because of rapid launchers, you nerf frigates because of cruisers... That's a terrible balance strategy.

Fair enough. Perhaps the key is in the rate of fire. Or the rapid launcher could modify the DRF or alpha. There's plenty of ways to adjust it without messing up LML frigs. As it stands RLM are a hard counter. The game is more fun when things are designed to be soft counters - giving you the advantage but still allowing counter play for the savvy player through piloting or fitting.

TBH I have a bigger problem with the poor application of HAMs and HM than I do with the good application of RLM.

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament