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Serpentis Asset Seizure:
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Archeal Azzamean
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2015-12-03 19:45:14 UTC
What is the general feeling among the network about the sudden seizure of ORE from the Serpentis Corp?

With the sudden accumulation of ORE shares under questionable means and violent acquisition of ORE facilities, what is the validity of the claim made for ORE as a company?

I understand that that the Serpentis is a Company of Questionable intent, however they still have some legitimacy among some of us capsuleers who directly benefit from boosters in our everyday travels. So, I would like to try and remain as impartial as possible.
Utari Onzo
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#2 - 2015-12-03 19:59:59 UTC
Boosters aren't a legitimacy, especially considering anything not synth grade is illegal in Hisec.

Personally, I'm glad they're out of the picture.

"Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"
Archeal Azzamean
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2015-12-03 20:07:40 UTC
True, but the boosters are legal in Low Sec by the DED. I can attest to staying alive in the field only due to their use in my past.

Utari Onzo, while you may be glad they are gone due to your beliefs, my question is the legitimacy of the acquisition from them. Like it or not they are still openly on the market and most empires still do some business with them.

I may like Starsi over Quafe, but if Starsi were to take over the other shouldn't it be done in a way deemed correct in the market?
(I know Caldari and their business mentality...)
Utari Onzo
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#4 - 2015-12-03 20:18:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Utari Onzo
They're not even really "legal" in lowsec. It's simply the lack of customs agents in those areas of space. One could say murder is legal so long as you're never caught.

As for the method of aquisition, karma's a ***** they say. Serpentis tends to get around with their forces, bullying things from mining colonies, to shady research stations. Nice for them to get a taste of their own medicine. I'd be interested to hear what Caldari think of it, not sure if they'd be overly fussed in the manner of the take over, but I'm sure some Gallente sensitivities on fairness might be ruffled.

"Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#5 - 2015-12-03 20:35:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Makoto Priano
ORE's shares were acquired under completely legitimate means, pilot. That Sarpati didn't anticipate the reacquisition of ORE by Arteu says more about Arteu's business acumen or Sarpati's lack thereof than about the legitimacy of the share transfers.

That the asset transfer was enforced by means a surprise Legion deployment, well-- that's not exactly business as usual, but then I suspect Arteu expected Sarpati to loot everything he could from ORE stations before abandoning them.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Persephone Alleile
Tartarus Covert Operations
#6 - 2015-12-03 21:10:13 UTC
It may have been a fairly cut-throat bit of corporate maneuvering but it was all done legally. Serpentis was edged out as majority shareholder of ORE and as such had no right to the assets they were holding onto. They could have asked kindly for Serpentis to return the stations to them I suppose, but how likely is it that there would be anything left in them when they handed them over?

I don't think there will be any objections from the big four.
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#7 - 2015-12-03 21:15:08 UTC
A snake in the grass is worth two in the bush.

Or something.

Hurr, Serpentis.

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#8 - 2015-12-03 23:34:36 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
That the asset transfer was enforced by means a surprise Legion deployment, well-- that's not exactly business as usual


Don't kid yourself. Anywhere south of Pure Blind and Fade, it most certainly is.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#9 - 2015-12-03 23:55:59 UTC
Wait a minute? You mean criminals actually have rights to property where some of you come from? Seizure of assets is a traditional method of funding law enforcement in the State...

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#10 - 2015-12-04 00:10:12 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Wait a minute? You mean criminals actually have rights to property where some of you come from? Seizure of assets is a traditional method of funding law enforcement in the State...


Where I'm from? Of course criminals retain their property rights - just not rights to property criminally obtained.

Where I am? Criminals don't have the right to live. Of course, we have different criteria for criminality.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#11 - 2015-12-04 05:59:31 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Of course, we have different criteria for criminality.


You might be surprised. Where I come from the law is whatever the person in charge says it is, provided the majority of the people don't disagree enough to make a fuss about it. I suspect that it works similarly where you are.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#12 - 2015-12-04 08:01:36 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Where I come from the law is whatever the person in charge says it is, provided the majority of the people don't disagree enough to make a fuss about it.


That's kinda the basis of law no matter where you are - someone's in charge and says what's what until the masses remove them. But I meant more things like... it's a crime in Imperium space to be piloting a ship as a member of an organization that isn't part of the Imperium. There are no innocent bystanders among active capsuleers. Though, I suppose a capsuleer who wasn't in their pod, but was just taking up a crew berthing on someone else's ship.... they're technically not a criminal.
Leopold Caine
Stillwater Corporation
#13 - 2015-12-04 10:41:41 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Seizure of assets is a traditional method of funding law enforcement in the State...


Makes you wonder who the real criminal is.

At least one of us isn't a hypocrite, hm?
  • Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim

Angels are never far...

Stillwater Corporation Recruitment Open - Angel Cartel Bloc
Vikarion
Doomheim
#14 - 2015-12-04 12:13:49 UTC
Leopold Caine wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Seizure of assets is a traditional method of funding law enforcement in the State...


Makes you wonder who the real criminal is.

At least one of us isn't a hypocrite, hm?


I don't think that you'll find that the State has ever claimed anything but a lack of concern for the property rights of criminals.

And who is a criminal? Who we say is a criminal, just like anywhere else. No need to pretend about that, either.

It really comes down to what elements you want in society, and which excluded, or at least kept at the edges. The Serpentis corporation, while not really a major foe of the State, is nonetheless an organization whose structural integrity we need not concern ourselves with.

Or, to put it bluntly, if you get in our way, we'll take your stuff.

That said, Upwell is not, strictly speaking, a State organization.
Leopold Caine
Stillwater Corporation
#15 - 2015-12-04 12:26:13 UTC
Vikarion wrote:

Or, to put it bluntly, if you get in our way, we'll take your stuff.


So do we, but again, only one of us is playing the holier-than-thou card.

Don't misunderstand me, I am not saying the approach is wrong ( after all, as I said, we share it ), I'm just saying I prefer calling things what they really are.
  • Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim

Angels are never far...

Stillwater Corporation Recruitment Open - Angel Cartel Bloc
Vikarion
Doomheim
#16 - 2015-12-04 13:14:30 UTC
Leopold Caine wrote:
Vikarion wrote:

Or, to put it bluntly, if you get in our way, we'll take your stuff.


So do we, but again, only one of us is playing the holier-than-thou card.

Don't misunderstand me, I am not saying the approach is wrong ( after all, as I said, we share it ), I'm just saying I prefer calling things what they really are.


That might work with the Amarrian Empire or the Gallente Federation, but it doesn't work with the Caldari State.

Boosters aren't good or bad, they just are. We don't want certain of them in the State because of the effects they tend to create. If Serpentis doesn't like that, too bad. We don't want the Gallente Federation in the State either, and we shoot them too.

There's no good or bad about it, we just prefer fewer Mindflood junkies and more calm, efficient, and financially stable employees who don't have any extra costs in terms of needing a fix.

The Serpentis and the products they offer, on the whole, are not compatible with how the Caldari envision Caldari society. Attempts to introduce your products are thus attempts to alter Caldari society to the tastes of an outsider. Thus, the Serpentis corporation, along with any nosy Amarr missionaries and the entire Gallente Federation, are our enemies.
Utari Onzo
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#17 - 2015-12-04 13:17:58 UTC
Vikarion wrote:
The Serpentis and the products they offer, on the whole, are not compatible with how the Caldari envision Caldari society. Attempts to introduce your products are thus attempts to alter Caldari society to the tastes of an outsider. Thus, the Serpentis corporation, along with any nosy Amarr missionaries and the entire Gallente Federation, are our enemies.


Well there goes the working holiday to my cousin's home out the window. ;)

"Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"
Vikarion
Doomheim
#18 - 2015-12-04 13:26:42 UTC
Utari Onzo wrote:

Well there goes the working holiday to my cousin's home out the window. ;)


Don't try to convert anyone in the State to working as a slave for the Amarr and you're fine.
Leopold Caine
Stillwater Corporation
#19 - 2015-12-04 13:42:12 UTC
Vikarion wrote:


That might work with the Amarrian Empire or the Gallente Federation, but it doesn't work with the Caldari State.

Boosters aren't good or bad, they just are. We don't want certain of them in the State because of the effects they tend to create. If Serpentis doesn't like that, too bad. We don't want the Gallente Federation in the State either, and we shoot them too.

There's no good or bad about it, we just prefer fewer Mindflood junkies and more calm, efficient, and financially stable employees who don't have any extra costs in terms of needing a fix.

The Serpentis and the products they offer, on the whole, are not compatible with how the Caldari envision Caldari society. Attempts to introduce your products are thus attempts to alter Caldari society to the tastes of an outsider. Thus, the Serpentis corporation, along with any nosy Amarr missionaries and the entire Gallente Federation, are our enemies.


I don't believe anyone mentioned boosters or narcotics so far, so I fail to see why the sudden change of topic?
Or if you don't think it's a change of topic, please clarify, since Tuulinen-haan said:

"Seizure of assets is a traditional method of funding law enforcement in the State..."

And you said yourself, in a reply to that particular topic:

"Or, to put it bluntly, if you get in our way, we'll take your stuff. "

Are you implying State is confiscating and then selling boosters to fund its law enforcement programme?
Those are some serious accusations, Mr. Vikarion.
  • Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim

Angels are never far...

Stillwater Corporation Recruitment Open - Angel Cartel Bloc
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#20 - 2015-12-04 17:16:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
I believe that certain boosters are available to be used by personnel under certain conditions. I'm not sure that the State sells confiscated boosters - since it is then contributing to a problem it's trying to solve - but I could be wrong. I'm sure you're aware how easy it is to sell almost anything at Jita IV 4.

But what I was really referring to is that, in the case of someone who might be, for example, moving stolen goods from one place to another. He gets caught, of course the stolen goods get confiscated but, in addition, the State might confiscate the ship he's using to move them. That ship might then be sold at auction and the proceeds used to partially defray the operational expenses of the customs unit.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
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