These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

A month into Eve, my biggest beef: Inescapable gate camps

Author
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
#61 - 2015-12-03 16:19:59 UTC
Jasonne Ormand wrote:

Finally, a voice of reason. Thanks for that. I get that it's a hard problem to solve, and don't mean to imply that someone who's been playing for a month could actually put forth a major change idea that wouldn't have all kinds of unintended consequences. Any fix would be a significant change.

But if a part of the game feels like a rage-inducing slog through the mud for everyone who's not doing the camping, then it should be addressed. Plain and simple.



Well, no, you mean, "Finally, a voice I can perceive to be agreeing with me!" Although, he's really not, as he's veering more toward an active engagement buff than the gatecamp nerf you seek - a result I bet you would find significantly more frustrating than your current issue.

You seem to believe that "I don't like this" is synonymous with "This is bad for the game" - it isn't.


Quote:
I swear, every time someone proposes a change to Eve (or any MMO, really), the masses scream "it'll break EVERYTHING" in their utter inability to take a rough idea and tweak it to taste, or even to imagine a world in which the good stuff stays while the bad stuff goes.

"Your idea, as literally stated, has problems, therefore gate camps have to stay as-is for all eternity even though most people hate them and even the campers mostly do them out of sheer boredom." -- most of the sentiment in this thread


Hyperbolic nonsense aside, most of the sentiment in this thread is effectively correct. Even if we ignore the problems with your specific idea, the major thrust of your idea is that chokepoint blockading should be less effective or outright ineffective. We're just extrapolating out the consequences of that and realizing that, no, no that just isn't going to work.

Quote:
But if a part of the game feels like a rage-inducing slog through the mud for everyone who's not doing the camping, then it should be addressed. Plain and simple.


It feels that way for YOU. Let's not pretend that everyone else has nominated you as their delegate, here. Your rage-inducing slog through the mud is just another mundane hazard to me.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Jasonne Ormand
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2015-12-03 16:39:40 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:

Well, no, you mean, "Finally, a voice I can perceive to be agreeing with me!" Although, he's really not, as he's veering more toward an active engagement buff than the gatecamp nerf you seek - a result I bet you would find significantly more frustrating than your current issue.

On the contrary, the fact that gate camps are the easiest way to force a fight has been stated here repeatedly, and I've even said I respect the players who actually hunt.

You give someone better tools to find me in-system and I'm all for it if it means fewer gate camps.

I have a hard time believing the player base would prefer lopsided ambushes to fair fights if they were equally available.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#63 - 2015-12-03 16:44:36 UTC
Jasonne Ormand wrote:
On the contrary, the fact that gate camps are the easiest way to force a fight has been stated here repeatedly, and I've even said I respect the players who actually hunt.

You give someone better tools to find me in-system and I'm all for it if it means fewer gate camps.

I have a hard time believing the player base would prefer lopsided ambushes to fair fights if they were equally available.


We have warfare in this game, not guaranteed evenly balanced combat. The battle is won in the prep and organization you do before you fire the first shot. If you find yourself in a fair fight, you did something very wrong.

Welcome to EVE
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
#64 - 2015-12-03 16:54:01 UTC
Jasonne Ormand wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:

Well, no, you mean, "Finally, a voice I can perceive to be agreeing with me!" Although, he's really not, as he's veering more toward an active engagement buff than the gatecamp nerf you seek - a result I bet you would find significantly more frustrating than your current issue.

On the contrary, the fact that gate camps are the easiest way to force a fight has been stated here repeatedly, and I've even said I respect the players who actually hunt.

You give someone better tools to find me in-system and I'm all for it if it means fewer gate camps.

I have a hard time believing the player base would prefer lopsided ambushes to fair fights if they were equally available.


A "fair fight" is what happens when someone made a mistake. This is not Honorable Internet Spaceship Duels Online.

You seem to want to make this about the campers Vs the travelers, and you're completely ignoring the competition between, "People who can safely navigate gatecamps" Vs. "People who can't."

If I can safely bypass a chokepoint, and you can't, I not only have access to a larger number of resources than you, I also don't have to compete against you for those resources. My ability and willingness to deal with the hazard has a direct economic benefit to me. I get to go get stuff while you're having your little apoplectic "Grrr, gatecamps" fit.

Explain why erasing that stratification between capable players and incapable players would be objectively good for the game.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Jasonne Ormand
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2015-12-03 17:10:31 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:

Explain why erasing that stratification between capable players and incapable players would be objectively good for the game.


Are gatecamps the only stratifying mechanics in Eve, as it is today? Are there no other conceivable stratifying mechanics to be added?

If roaming gangs of thugs are the best CCP can come up with to make Eve challenging, I'd suggest they hire some creative thinkers.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#66 - 2015-12-03 17:13:47 UTC
Jasonne Ormand wrote:
Are gatecamps the only stratifying mechanics in Eve, as it is today? Are there no other conceivable stratifying mechanics to be added?

If roaming gangs of thugs are the best CCP can come up with to make Eve challenging, I'd suggest they hire some creative thinkers.


Gather your own gang of thugs and fight back. EVE is a sandbox, it's on you and me to be the creative thinkers, not CCP
Jasonne Ormand
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2015-12-03 17:16:07 UTC
Cidanel Afuran wrote:

Gather your own gang of thugs and fight back. EVE is a sandbox, it's on you and me to be the creative thinkers, not CCP


It's a team effort. CCP gives us the tools we use. As repeated statedly in this thread, finding fights is hard, so we get gate camps.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#68 - 2015-12-03 17:21:50 UTC
Jasonne Ormand wrote:
It's a team effort. CCP gives us the tools we use. As repeated statedly in this thread, finding fights is hard, so we get gate camps.


We're trying to explain the type of game EVE is right now. Finding fair fights as a month old solo player will be extremely difficult. If you join a decent corp with good FCs, you can get into good fights a month into the game. EVE is designed specifically to be a harsh, thankless environment. It never promises fair fights, it lets you be the bad guy, it lets experienced people pick on the little guy. All of that is by design. You really can't approach PvP in EVE the same way you do in other MMOs. When you see that gate camp picking off stragglers/solo people, the intended response isn't to call for a nerf to gate camping, it's for you to organize a dozen people and take out the camp.



Gather a bigger force and attack them

Gather a few ewar ships and keep them jammed for the next two hours

Find an alternate route

Find where their home is and camp their supply lines

Fly a travel fit to break camps, drop a mobile depot and refit in space after you're through the camp



There are numerous tools in game to counter gate camps already. That's been the point many of us are trying to make
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
#69 - 2015-12-03 17:24:45 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Jasonne Ormand wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:

Explain why erasing that stratification between capable players and incapable players would be objectively good for the game.


Are gatecamps the only stratifying mechanics in Eve, as it is today? Are there no other conceivable stratifying mechanics to be added?

If roaming gangs of thugs are the best CCP can come up with to make Eve challenging, I'd suggest they hire some creative thinkers.



The only? No. But they are absolutely *A* stratifying feature and, given your bellyaching, a pretty effective one, neh? Why should that be removed or deteriorated in any way? Why should Bob, the easily frustrated guy who doesn't want to have to deal with a gatecamp, suddenly be meaningful competition for Alice, the capable evader of gatecamps? Why does he deserve to have that just handed to him in the form of a game mechanic change?

And why wouldn't we just be having this same damn conversation about the NEXT problem that Alice has already solved for herself, but by which Bob is completely flummoxed and frustrated? Because really, gatecamps are actually one of the lesser hurdles in Eve.

Anyway, you didn't actually answer the question, so I'll ask it again.

Why would removing that stratification between a capable player and an incapable player be objectively good for the game?

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#70 - 2015-12-03 17:26:33 UTC
Jasonne Ormand wrote:
But if a part of the game feels like a rage-inducing slog through the mud for everyone who's not doing the camping, then it should be addressed. Plain and simple.

Sort of feels like that for both sides, only less rage-inducing and more sleep-inducing for one of them. I've always just accepted that some level of stagnation needs to happen to keep the game moving slow enough we don't all burn out on it and go home. But if it can be made more fun and engaging without making all the action happen in less time, that's a plus.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Jasonne Ormand
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2015-12-03 17:36:08 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:

Why would removing that stratification between a capable player and an incapable player be objectively good for the game?


Because it would also be removing a widespread fun-suck, to be replaced with some other stratifier(s) if necessary.
Maccian
Soul Takers
Pen Is Out
#72 - 2015-12-03 17:46:15 UTC
Jasonne Ormand wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:

Why would removing that stratification between a capable player and an incapable player be objectively good for the game?


Because it would also be removing a widespread fun-suck, to be replaced with some other stratifier(s) if necessary.



But we find it fun gate camping? And believe it or not I am sure many people enjoy ruining our gate camps or at least when they try to.
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
#73 - 2015-12-03 17:47:56 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Jasonne Ormand wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:

Why would removing that stratification between a capable player and an incapable player be objectively good for the game?


Because it would also be removing a widespread fun-suck, to be replaced with some other stratifier(s) if necessary.



Calling it a "fun-suck" is inherently subjective. It's a fun-suck for Bob because Bob is incapable of dealing with the problem. It's a fun-enhancer for Alice because Bob's inability to deal with the problem yields a competitive advantage for her.

So, not very objective there. Try again.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

admiral root
Red Galaxy
#74 - 2015-12-03 17:58:05 UTC
To summarise:

  • Not whant gate camps! - Welcome to one of the best PvP games on the internet.
  • But it takes soooo long to scout first! - This is an MMORPG; make friends.
  • But it takes soooo long to bookmark tacticals! - This is not a game for those in search of instant gratification.
  • Gatecamps are unbalanced! - What does a self-admitted new player know about balancing this game?
  • I want fair fights! - Go and play TF2 on a highlander server.
  • I have to watch directional scan all the time! - So does anyone who's undocked and has a brain, even in highsec.
  • One guy agreed with me, so clearly he's the reasonable one. - Two terrible Eve players don't make a good one.
  • There's no reason to kill an NPC in a T1 frigate. - Because it couldn't be a cyno for a hotdrop on the gate campers, could it? Also, "because I want to" is a perfectly valid reason for killing anyone in this game.
  • All these sensible things that will keep me alive longer aren't fun! - Hello Kitty Online is that way. --->


Given that UAE has yet to make an appearence, I feel obligated to ask: OP, given that this game clearly isn't for you, can I haz your stuffs?

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#75 - 2015-12-03 18:00:04 UTC
This seems like a good place to say "Be quiet when adults are discussing things."

The biggest problem with this whole thread is that the stated problem isn't even a problem.

Gatecamping is pretty much at a long time low. There just aren't that many folks logged and moving around. There is just too little traffice most everywhere. Much of the reason for low login numbers and a decline of eve is that whiney tittybabies keep up the constant waaaa waaaaa waaaaa to CCP and have slowly and methodically sucked the soul out of the game.

System upgrades, cyno jammers, warp to zero, drone agression tweaks, friendly fire and on and on. Now you want a way to bypass gate camps???

With only a month in game you are a noob. Be quiet, learn the game, then come up with legit ideas. This isn't like any other game out there, so I don't want to hear about your years playing blahblahblah - this isn't supposed to be like those other games.

Read the EULA really really closely. Print it out and use a highlighter (I like the blue ones) to highlight ever occurrance of the word FAIR. Report back with the number of highlights you made. We're all very interested in what you find.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#76 - 2015-12-03 18:02:15 UTC
admiral root wrote:
To summarise:

  • Not whant gate camps! - Welcome to one of the best PvP games on the internet.
  • But it takes soooo long to scout first! - This is an MMORPG; make friends.
  • But it takes soooo long to bookmark tacticals! - This is not a game for those in search of instant gratification.
  • Gatecamps are unbalanced! - What does a self-admitted new player know about balancing this game?
  • I want fair fights! - Go and play TF2 on a highlander server.
  • I have to watch directional scan all the time! - So does anyone who's undocked and has a brain, even in highsec.
  • One guy agreed with me, so clearly he's the reasonable one. - Two terrible Eve players don't make a good one.
  • There's no reason to kill an NPC in a T1 frigate. - Because it couldn't be a cyno for a hotdrop on the gate campers, could it? Also, "because I want to" is a perfectly valid reason for killing anyone in this game.
  • All these sensible things that will keep me alive longer aren't fun! - Hello Kitty Online is that way. --->


Given that UAE has yet to make an appearence, I feel obligated to ask: OP, given that this game clearly isn't for you, can I haz your stuffs?



I"m embarassed to admit this, but I've never actually checked. Is there actual a 'hello kitty' game?
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#77 - 2015-12-03 18:04:05 UTC
Jasonne Ormand wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:

Why would removing that stratification between a capable player and an incapable player be objectively good for the game?


Because it would also be removing a widespread fun-suck, to be replaced with some other stratifier(s) if necessary.

so essentially "CCP PLEASE NERFF THE OTHER PLAYERS BECAUSE THEY'RE BETTER THAN MEEEEEEE!"
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#78 - 2015-12-03 18:05:34 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
admiral root wrote:
To summarise:

  • Not whant gate camps! - Welcome to one of the best PvP games on the internet.
  • But it takes soooo long to scout first! - This is an MMORPG; make friends.
  • But it takes soooo long to bookmark tacticals! - This is not a game for those in search of instant gratification.
  • Gatecamps are unbalanced! - What does a self-admitted new player know about balancing this game?
  • I want fair fights! - Go and play TF2 on a highlander server.
  • I have to watch directional scan all the time! - So does anyone who's undocked and has a brain, even in highsec.
  • One guy agreed with me, so clearly he's the reasonable one. - Two terrible Eve players don't make a good one.
  • There's no reason to kill an NPC in a T1 frigate. - Because it couldn't be a cyno for a hotdrop on the gate campers, could it? Also, "because I want to" is a perfectly valid reason for killing anyone in this game.
  • All these sensible things that will keep me alive longer aren't fun! - Hello Kitty Online is that way. --->


Given that UAE has yet to make an appearence, I feel obligated to ask: OP, given that this game clearly isn't for you, can I haz your stuffs?



I"m embarassed to admit this, but I've never actually checked. Is there actual a 'hello kitty' game?

Yeah
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#79 - 2015-12-03 18:22:09 UTC
Jasonne Ormand wrote:

Given the sheer number of lopsided deaths that happen at gate camps, what would you say the ratio of frustration to fun is for people trying to get through them?


You say that as if its a bad thing that this game is frustrating for players who cannot and will not think for themselves.

And to that i say: well thank **** for that! Thats why i play the game! Its not for instant-gratification types. Its hard, ruthless and rewards careful preparation. And even when you've done everything right, theres still some chance someone can ruin your day.

Jasonne Ormand wrote:

And as I've already stated, a well designed mechanic would allow you to achieve the goals of your gate camps without being a pain in the rest of the player base's ass.

I swear, every time someone proposes a change to Eve (or any MMO, really), the masses scream "it'll break EVERYTHING" in their utter inability to take a rough idea and tweak it to taste, or even to imagine a world in which the good stuff stays while the bad stuff goes.

"Your idea, as literally stated, has problems, therefore gate camps have to stay as-is for all eternity even though most people hate them and even the campers mostly do them out of sheer boredom." -- most of the sentiment in this thread


And if i see such a proposal ill upvote it and comment on its merits. I have several issues with your proposal and your knee jerk reactions to people telling you how your idea is bad. Its not that all ideas on here are bad. Its that bad ideas made by people with bad attitudes being all too frequent that make them so contemptuous.

You want us to tweak the idea to taste, but i find your proposals conceptually disagreeable and you've also yet to convince me whats so terrible about the current system other than you dont like it and you dislike effort and time investments.

I, in fact, enjoy effort and time investments. it makes my successes more distinguished and rewarding.

Jasonne Ormand wrote:

I have a hard time believing the player base would prefer lopsided ambushes to fair fights if they were equally available.


You're still not getting it.

Why would i want a fair fight if i can put the prep in before hand to almost guarantee a win? especially if im fighting over something valuable that has taken me months/years to achieve.

The 'fair fight' started on day one of the game where everyone had nothing. Ever since then everyone has competing with each other. What you think is a fight, is actually the climax of a competition YEARS in the making.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#80 - 2015-12-03 18:36:27 UTC
CCP should read this and understand something: Some people don't want tools, they want YOU to fix it for them.

In this game we have ships with jump drives. Ships that can create jump portals. Ships that can use MWDs and cloaks to bypass low sec gate camps OR get back to a gate. Scouts. Friends (that can kill gate camps). The modified a class of deep space transport particularly with gate camps in mind (buffs to defenses), and gave us WORMHOLES that lets us bypass known space all toghether.

And still after 12+ years you see 'ideas' like this, aimed at 'backdoor nerfing' other players. And make no mistake, that is the gist of this thread, it's asking CCP "please nerf these people who killed me because I can't figure it out myself".

As someone who did figure it out (years ago) and survived hundreds of 'gate camps' I still say NO to the ideas of the OP.