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A month into Eve, my biggest beef: Inescapable gate camps

Author
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
#21 - 2015-12-02 19:43:53 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Jasonne Ormand wrote:


The thing about this is that bookmarks are easy to make.. They're just time consuming. This wouldn't be granting anyone an ability they don't already have, it'd just be saving time I could spend having actual fun.


It would be granting them an ability they don't already have at an arbitrary time and place, without any particular prep or effort needed.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Jasonne Ormand
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2015-12-02 19:46:14 UTC
Cidanel Afuran wrote:

And as someone who has lived in WHs for longer than you've been playing the game, there are absolutely camps on exits to holes. If I have an exit that spits out close to very populated HS, you can bet your last ISK that I will camp it if there's nothing else going on.


Sure, it's just not rampant like it is in lowsec, in my experience. Plus, say I find a wormhole in an out-of-the-way lowsec system. Odds are great that the other side isn't camped, so it's little risk to pop in with my covops ship to scout around.

I can be smart about where to look for wormholes, but I can't really avoid high-traffic lowsec lanes and the camps that plague them.
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#23 - 2015-12-02 23:00:22 UTC
Jasonne Ormand wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Perches are a thing I.e. a bookmark 2 or 300 off a gate you use regularly and have been beaten up at before.

So are scouts, I guarantee you the campers have one cloaked off the out gate so they know what is coming,
get to know who these are and which gates they like.

Also the mwd+cloak trick works perfectly fine once you figure it out.


Yes, I'm aware of the things you can do about gate camps. The point is it's a hassle and a time suck, and in no way fun.

The perches, in particular, are an obvious beef: Why does CCP make me waste time on them when they could just add a warp-to-300 option? Most things in this game already take quite a bit of time, travelling in particular.

This game already has huge time commitments built into it. Doubling the time you spend playing in order to avoid lame, inherently unfair mechanics is just silly.



It's not doubling anything, you're going about it half assed and saying it isn't fair.
iv been on both sides of the gate camp and it's trivial to get past/avoid entirely if you put a little effort in.
I've been playing for years and I've been caught in about 3 gatecamps my entire time,
all of them entirely my own fault for getting complacent.
Seriously if you're not willing to put the effort into being decent prey then you deserve to be caught and eaten.

oohthey ioh
Doomheim
#24 - 2015-12-02 23:31:18 UTC
A hell of a fight happen on gate, fair or unfiar is just an pov, the idea you suggested are going to remove the capability to catch anyone is lowsec with an smallish ship. Beside you can just burn back to gate, the only time people catch small ships on gate is due to human error or istra lock high Alpha gunned ship.

You jumping in system blind is down to you, if you cant scout it, ckeck killborads for that system or ckeck map for "active player in spaxe", and 'kill in the last hour.'

Also try to avoid system that are well known to be camped. If all else fails well all i can say is ship happens.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#25 - 2015-12-03 01:19:24 UTC
So OP?

If you want gatecamping removed, how do I and nine of my friends keep a hostile roamer away from friendly ratters/miners/caps/whatever?

How do I force a fight at all if all the chokepoints suddenly aren't?
Jasonne Ormand
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2015-12-03 02:10:43 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
So OP?

If you want gatecamping removed, how do I and nine of my friends keep a hostile roamer away from friendly ratters/miners/caps/whatever?

How do I force a fight at all if all the chokepoints suddenly aren't?


Lock him in a system like I described?

Besides, if escaping gate camps is as easy as everyone here keeps trying to claim, you can't keep him away from your ratters anyway.

And furthermore, since roughly 100% of the gate camps I've encountered in low/null have aggressed me, your example is an insignificant percentage of gate camp applications on the whole.

And furthermore, if Eve is supposed to be so hostile and dangerous, your ratters and miners have to deal with hostiles too. The difference is they're being legitimately hunted, as opposed to walking into a wildly lopsided ambush.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#27 - 2015-12-03 02:20:01 UTC
These 3 ideas aren't making things any better, in fact they are making things worse, and if you think warping at a fixed spot 300 clicks off is going to help you at all then I really feel sorry for you.

Make bookmarks, use f10 to check for deaths in last hour and either use scout alts in insta align ceptors or friends.

Gatecamps suck when you are on the receiving side but they need to stay.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#28 - 2015-12-03 02:25:38 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
OP... consider these points:

- when you set up a gatecamp with a bunch of people, you are somewhat committing yourself, your friends, and your equipment to the field. Sitting in one spot basically paints a "bullseye" on you for any group that thinks they can take you on. It also makes you easy to scout.
And yet... you are complaining that a bunch of people who have taken this effort to gather up the manpower and resources... and risk committing themselves to a single spot requires less "effort" than you blindly jumping in through a gate in a solo ship?

- How do you think the people who live in low-sec and null-sec ship stuff around? Not all of us have the luxury of Jump Freighters or have small enough stuff to be moved solely by Blockade Runner (cloaky industrials). How do you think we survive and even thrive in such enviroments?

- Time efficiency or safety. Choose.
One theme that you see quite often in EVE (over various activities) is that if you want to be safe, you have to make tradeoffs. In this case, you have to sink more time into preparing yourself for the journey ahead (either in terms of researching your route, making safepoints, taking precautions).
For example: You can certainly take the "shortest route" to your destination... but more often than not, the people who live along that route know that they are the "shortest route" and thus take advantage of it (by sitting on the chokepoint). If you take the longer route that sees less traffic... odds are that you will see few, if any, gatecamps or hostiles. But you pay for that in terms of time spent getting someplace.

- You are not a "special snowflake." Even with low skills, you can be potentially VERY dangerous to whoever you run into. Or not. The people you run into have no way to know for sure. There is no way to mechanically discern intent or experience.

- You have the freedom to travel and do whatever you want. But you are not entitled to go anywhere or do anything you want.
Just as you have the freedom to do what you want to do, other players also have the freedom to do what they want to do... even if it runs counter to what you are doing.
If you impose mechanics or penalties on the basis of "I don't like it, I find it unfair" then you open the doors for other players to say the same things about stuff YOU do.


To get to the meat of your ideas...

Jasonne Ormand wrote:
Make the free cloak stay on for the whole minute while slowboating, or stay on until you're in warp.

- how is anyone supposed to catch anyone with your cloak idea? If the gate-cloak stick around until you are in warp... and you warp to 0 to the next gate... and repeat this process... there is no way anyone can catch anyone else.

Jasonne Ormand wrote:
]Add a module to disable stargate use for a targeted ship, and create a delay (3 seconds, maybe) between warping to 0 and jumping through.

As someone else pointed out... this will buff gatecamps. Like... A LOT.

A common tactic for escaping gatecamps is to quickly burn back to the gate you just came from, jump, and warp ASAP to any cluster of celestials (to throw off pursuers).
This idea would put an end to this tactics.

Jasonne Ormand wrote:
]Add a "warp to 300" option for gates

No. Invest the time necessary to create the perches you want to create. It encourages people to prepare in advance and rewards those who do so.
Frankly, this is Low-Sec-101 stuff.

Jasonne Ormand wrote:
If I jump through a camped gate, I'm not insta-dead, but I do have to stay in the system. I have the ability to scout gates without spending hours creating perch bookmarks for the systems I use a lot. Campers have the ability to prevent me leaving, and can still hunt me with probes and Dscan.

Oh... so you want to whole package of ideas to go together?

Yeah, no. Still a massive nerf to gatecamping.

- no one can target you when you are cloaked or in warp... so your "prevent gatejump" module won't work if someone is just passing through.
- if you are passing though, you have no reason to stay in a system. Ergo, you will never be at risk of being probed or D-scanned down.
- Probes and D-scan only work when something inhabits the same grid for a period of time. If you ping-pong around between planets and asteroid belts, staying in warp for as long as possible... almost no one will be able to catch you (again... Low-Sec-Life-101).



All in all... the OP smacks of someone who doesn't want to invest much time doing stuff he personally doesn't want to do.
We all have to bite the bullet in this regard because this is a multi-faceted game. I am a PvP and I hate economics and trading. But I have had to learn it to succeed.
Zimmer Jones
Lightspeed Enterprises
Goonswarm Federation
#29 - 2015-12-03 02:42:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Zimmer Jones
Just to chime in, I do logistics as in moving stuff, and i have to say it can be a rush blowing through gatecamps in blockade runners. It always has been. Unfortunately, just like any kind of mechanic that lets you frustrate a larger group of players than you and possibly some alts, it needs focused skills for that task, and not just in SP.

Good solutions have been shown in previous posts, but sometimes you have to have the (cheesy warning ahead) right ship: friendship. A guy on the other side checking the gate, or possibly lighting a covert cyno to get that ship through from either another friend or an alt with nothing better to do than skill into a blops.

That last bit is pretty damn riskless, but helps when you really have to ship some stuff in a hurry, as long as its not something large.

*ed: havent had to do that in quite a while, i can stock up and be patient on one side or another.

Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.

Jasonne Ormand
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2015-12-03 02:45:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Jasonne Ormand
First, farther up the thread, I freely admitted my example fix was problematic. The point is gate camping is a net negative for the game, and I don't even think it's close.

Quote:
All in all... the OP smacks of someone who doesn't want to invest much time doing stuff he personally doesn't want to do.


No, as I've stated, I don't want to have to invest time in avoiding a ****** game mechanic. It's funny, throughout this whole thread, only one poster has put forth an actual application for gate camps - protecting corp ratters and miners from roaming hostiles.

All other points in favor of gate camping amount to "you suck at eve" and "it's supposed to be dangerous." Know what else would be dangerous? Random meteor storms blowing up your ship, but no one's going to claim that's a good idea too.

In practice, gate camping amounts to indiscriminately being a pain in travelers asses for little tangible gain from 90+% of camp victims.

I mean, you literally have no reason to kill a player from an NPC corp in a T1 frigate, by himself, with nothing in his hold... other than that it's easier and quicker than cargo scanning him. It's not a challenge, and you gain nothing.

How y'all are almost universally defending such pointlessness is fairly perplexing.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#31 - 2015-12-03 02:48:46 UTC
Jasonne Ormand wrote:


I'm all for PVP when I have tools to fight or avoid, but this is a scenario with zero built-in fairness. I fail to see how it adds any value to the game.


There are already tools to fight, there are also tools to avoid, but like everything in EVE they come at a price. How much can you honestly believe that one player should come up successful against the concerted efforts of 10 other players? When you say that you, someone inexperienced, working alone and apparently lazy, found a fight against 10 players, putting in more effort, more organisation and likely more experience and skill, unfair; the term no **** Sherlock comes to mind.



I can see how a solo player doesn't understand the value of gate camps but when it comes to group play the control of gate traffic can be pretty important. Covering buddies as they mine, haul, rat or repair structures. Controlling territory from patrols. Controlling trade routes etc etc. Preventing them from getting into the system in the first place is the point.

Then of course there's plain old piracy. If I understand it correctly, your proposals make it impossible to stop even a max-cargo freighter from getting into system and in fact reduces the window to which to attack such a whale down to three seconds per system!!

No thanks.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#32 - 2015-12-03 03:05:48 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Jasonne Ormand wrote:
No, as I've stated, I don't want to have to invest time in avoiding a ****** game mechanic.

Translation: "I don't want to adapt for something I personally do not like."

Jasonne Ormand wrote:
All other points in favor of gate camping amount to "you suck at eve" and "it's supposed to be dangerous." Know what else would be dangerous? Random meteor storms blowing up your ship, but no one's going to claim that's a good idea too.

That idea does come up here from time to time. And it does have some popularity with people. Blink

Jasonne Ormand wrote:
In practice, gate camping amounts to indiscriminately being a pain in travelers asses for little tangible gain from 90+% of camp victims.

Ummm... the whole point behind a gatecamp IS to be a pain in the ass to travelers. Because some people don't want travelers to come by.

And again... you are not entitled to go wherever you please. You have the freedom to. But other players can take that freedom away if they commit themselves to preventing you... as gatecampers do.
It is a subtle, but VERY important difference.

Jasonne Ormand wrote:
I mean, you literally have no reason to kill a player from an NPC corp in a T1 frigate, by himself, with nothing in his hold... other than that it's easier and quicker than cargo scanning him.

Live in low-sec for awhile. You will quickly learn that any and ALL ships you encounter are a threat. Even rookie ships. Especially rookie ships.

I am being totally serious here too... do you know what a "hotdrop" is?
(NOTE: in that video, look for the brown module with a "fist" on it... that is a Cynosaural Field. Any ship can fit it. Upon activation, you create a beacon which capital ships that you are fleeted with can lock on and jump directly to... from several systems away... bypassing any and all stargates on the way! Titans can add to this by creating a jump portal on their end... which allows subcapitals gathered around the Titan to jump to the Cyno. Basically, it is a "neener, neener, Imma drop my fwiends ya didn't know 'bout on ya!" module).
Zimmer Jones
Lightspeed Enterprises
Goonswarm Federation
#33 - 2015-12-03 03:25:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Zimmer Jones
Your values are not their value's and the only reasons the need are "because they can," "because sandbox."

Harsh, yes, but it is the main selling point of eve. The players are the game, and its up to you to use the tools and rules that favor your playstyle. That player count in the launcher, those are your competitors.

When I hit a gatecamp, it is because I've weighed the odds, and part of that weighing is the expectation to lose everything. Gf's in local if I don't make it. Tough for me, but the rush is worth it, and its my own fault. If I do make it, still gf's in local. Love what you do, even if you fail. If you don't, find something you can enjoy, because eve IS opportunity and experience.

Ed* oh yeah, while friends make the game fun, its the enemies that really really make it fun.

Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.

Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
#34 - 2015-12-03 04:05:12 UTC
[quote=Jasonne Ormand
Yes, I'm aware of the things you can do about gate camps. The point is it's a hassle and a time suck, and in no way fun.

The perches, in particular, are an obvious beef: Why does CCP make me waste time on them when they could just add a warp-to-300 option? Most things in this game already take quite a bit of time, travelling in particular.

This game already has huge time commitments built into it. Doubling the time you spend playing in order to avoid lame, inherently unfair mechanics is just silly.


[/quote]

They are not lame or silly... and the point is they are not meant to be fun

You've got caught, and you have to pay... deal with it...

Oh and be grateful that you don't have the issue of if you clone is up-to-date and all the other stuff that used to go with being podded
Iain Cariaba
#35 - 2015-12-03 04:14:09 UTC
Jasonne Ormand wrote:
No, as I've stated, I don't want to have to invest time in avoiding a ****** game mechanic.

Then stay out of areas of the game where mechanics you don't like exist. Considering gate camps are found throughout all of EvE, then maybe this isn't the game for you. That's okay, really. Of the dozen or so friends I've introduced to this game, only one stuck around for any length of time. EvE is not for everyone, which is why it has been, and hopefully always will be, a niche game.

Jasonne Ormand wrote:
All other points in favor of gate camping amount to "you suck at eve" and "it's supposed to be dangerous." Know what else would be dangerous? Random meteor storms blowing up your ship, but no one's going to claim that's a good idea too.

Honestly, you haven't had the time in EvE to truly suck at it. Everyone at your stage of the game sucks at EvE, because you don't have the necessary knowledge to know you're doing it wrong, but doing it wrong anyway.

Jasonne Ormand wrote:
In practice, gate camping amounts to indiscriminately being a pain in travelers asses for little tangible gain from 90+% of camp victims.

There are several rather easy ways to avoid gate camps, and nearly all of them have been listed in this thread. You simply have to stuff your righteous indignation back where it came from, and learn to EvE.

Jasonne Ormand wrote:
I mean, you literally have no reason to kill a player from an NPC corp in a T1 frigate, by himself, with nothing in his hold... other than that it's easier and quicker than cargo scanning him.

Sure you do, the killmail. Also, tear filled threads such as this one sometimes generate from those actions, which are another reason.
Iain Cariaba
#36 - 2015-12-03 04:29:32 UTC
Jasonne Ormand wrote:
Yes, I'm aware of the things you can do about gate camps. The point is it's a hassle and a time suck, and in no way fun.

And some people think having to PvE for isk so they can PvP is a hassle and a time suck, and in no way fun.

Deal with it.

Jasonne Ormand wrote:
The perches, in particular, are an obvious beef: Why does CCP make me waste time on them when they could just add a warp-to-300 option? Most things in this game already take quite a bit of time, travelling in particular.

Because a good set of perches can be extremly valuable, tactically. Besides, the only thing a 300km warp-in point would add is yet another place for you to get tackled. I'd simply put one tackle frig on the 300km warp-in, and still lock you down while the rest warped in. Conversely, a well placed perch doesn't allow the enemy to warp directly to you unless they either have the same perch, or combat probes to probe you out.

Jasonne Ormand wrote:
This game already has huge time commitments built into it. Doubling the time you spend playing in order to avoid lame, inherently unfair mechanics is just silly.

This entire game consists of inherently unfair mechanics. Hotdropping, highsec ganking, contract scams, and many more, can all be considered unfair mechanics. Once again, deal with it. EvE is not fair. If you want fair, go play Hello Kitty Online. I've said for a long time, if you get into a fair fight in EvE, both sides screwed up.
Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
#37 - 2015-12-03 04:40:49 UTC
Jasonne Ormand wrote:

I mean, you literally have no reason to kill a player from an NPC corp in a T1 frigate, by himself, with nothing in his hold... other than that it's easier and quicker than cargo scanning him. It's not a challenge, and you gain nothing.

How y'all are almost universally defending such pointlessness is fairly perplexing.


That's true, until you consider the story of the shuttle with $1500 of plex in its hold

As to pointlessness, the way that is determined is whether they bother to loot your ship
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
#38 - 2015-12-03 05:52:36 UTC
Jasonne Ormand wrote:
First, farther up the thread, I freely admitted my example fix was problematic. The point is gate camping is a net negative for the game, and I don't even think it's close.


No, as I've stated, I don't want to have to invest time in avoiding a ****** game mechanic. It's funny, throughout this whole thread, only one poster has put forth an actual application for gate camps - protecting corp ratters and miners from roaming hostiles.


Can you prove that? Sure, you don't like it, but saying it's objectively a net negative is a trickier task.

Nothing in Eve happens in a vacuum. What you're looking at as something that's unfair and inconvenient for you actually does have some significant impact on the game in a lot of regards you haven't even considered because you don't really "get" Eve yet.

The ability to negotiate the various hazards of low/null/WH is an actual competitive advantage over players who won't or can't do it.

Better sites, better ore, better rats, better mission payouts, better planets, better industry, moon mining etc.

Saying, "I don't want to have to invest time in avoiding gatecamps" is effectively saying, "I want the perks without having to deal with the difficulties," but when you start carving away the difficulties, now EVERYONE can get the perks, and then it's just a race to the price floor.

As a concrete example, suppose I wanted to build freighters, soup to nuts. If you're not familiar, this is a multi-step process - first you need capital components, then those are assembled into the ship. I could do this in high sec...or....

...I could toss up a starbase in low sec, throw up a Thukker assembly array, and do my component building there with both hugely discounted mineral costs and much faster build times. Not only will the total build time be reduced, but I'll be building them at a much better margin.

The catch, of course, is that I now have to manage the logistics of moving large volumes of minerals safely out to low. If I can do this, I get to save a bundle on freighter construction. If I can't, then I don't.

In that regard, this thing that you imagine to be simply unfair and inconvenient and a bad game mechanic? Yeah, that's some other intrepid player's payday, because someone like you didn't want to deal with it.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#39 - 2015-12-03 05:52:58 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
TBH, I don't really like gatecamps, myself. Different reasons, though. I don't find them problematic, I just think they're a boring chore that appeals only to the most shiftless and risk-averse of players.


Might I suggest you pull your head out and learn what terms like risk averse mean, because running around and using the term like an insult only makes you look like an idiot.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
#40 - 2015-12-03 05:54:20 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Teckos Pech wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
TBH, I don't really like gatecamps, myself. Different reasons, though. I don't find them problematic, I just think they're a boring chore that appeals only to the most shiftless and risk-averse of players.


Might I suggest you pull your head out and learn what terms like risk averse mean, because running around and using the term like an insult only makes you look like an idiot.



They are also very thin-skinned, precious things. Lol

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/