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A month into Eve, my biggest beef: Inescapable gate camps

Author
Jasonne Ormand
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2015-12-02 17:15:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Jasonne Ormand
Ok, so I've spent a bunch of time in high sec, low sec, null sec and wormholes. Solo, in fleets, in a big corp, etc. I'm not a carebear (I live in lowsec) and like having to generally watch my back. PvE would be boring if I didn't, honestly.

However, when I'm alone in a small ship and jump through a gate into a cluster of 10 campers, it's an unavoidable death unless I'm in a covops ship. I have no way of peeking the other side. I have no way to escape once I'm there if they have marginally competent tacklers. They have no reason not to explode me. Gate guns are a joke for even a small gang.

I'm all for PVP when I have tools to fight or avoid, but this is a scenario with zero built-in fairness. I fail to see how it adds any value to the game.

My suggested fix:

Give players (at least un-fleeted ones) an escape option and balance that by giving campers more tools to catch players who are already in-system.

For example, combine these three changes:

* Make the free cloak stay on for the whole minute while slowboating, or stay on until you're in warp.

* Add a module to disable stargate use for a targeted ship, and create a delay (3 seconds, maybe) between warping to 0 and jumping through.

* Add a "warp to 300" option for gates

The end result:

If I jump through a camped gate, I'm not insta-dead, but I do have to stay in the system. I have the ability to scout gates without spending hours creating perch bookmarks for the systems I use a lot. Campers have the ability to prevent me leaving, and can still hunt me with probes and Dscan.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#2 - 2015-12-02 17:24:12 UTC
The scout you are looking for is an interceptor.
Bobb Bobbington
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2015-12-02 17:31:10 UTC
So... destroys lowsec/nullsec gatecamping while at the same time nerfing solo play by not allowing players to deagress on gate...

The simple fact is that you shouldn't be safe, anywhere, especially when traveling, and gatecamps are simply how players demonstrate that rule. Learn ways to avoid them, or get some people together and kick some ass. Don't whine about how they should be removed because you don't like getting killed when you don't want to.

This is a signature.

It has a 25m signature.

No it's not a cosmic signature.

Probably.

Btw my corp's recruiting.

Jasonne Ormand
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2015-12-02 17:35:42 UTC
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
So... destroys lowsec/nullsec gatecamping while at the same time nerfing solo play by not allowing players to deagress on gate...

The simple fact is that you shouldn't be safe, anywhere, especially when traveling, and gatecamps are simply how players demonstrate that rule. Learn ways to avoid them, or get some people together and kick some ass. Don't whine about how they should be removed because you don't like getting killed when you don't want to.


Sure, I can get an interceptor alt and double my travel time to everywhere. That sounds fun.

Plus, the whole point was to balance the camps. Camp your ass off, but catch me after I'm in-system instead of the lazy, lame "let's put 10 guys on this gate and explode 20 frigates to stave off the boredom of waiting for that one solo T3 cruiser."
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#5 - 2015-12-02 17:36:03 UTC
Perches are a thing I.e. a bookmark 2 or 300 off a gate you use regularly and have been beaten up at before.

So are scouts, I guarantee you the campers have one cloaked off the out gate so they know what is coming,
get to know who these are and which gates they like.

Also the mwd+cloak trick works perfectly fine once you figure it out.
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#6 - 2015-12-02 17:41:33 UTC
Jasonne Ormand wrote:
Ok, so I've spent a bunch of time in high sec, low sec, null sec and wormholes. Solo, in fleets, in a big corp, etc. I'm not a carebear (I live in lowsec) and like having to generally watch my back. PvE would be boring if I didn't, honestly.

However, when I'm alone in a small ship and jump through a gate into a cluster of 10 campers, it's an unavoidable death unless I'm in a covops ship. I have no way of peeking the other side. I have no way to escape once I'm there if they have marginally competent tacklers. They have no reason not to explode me. Gate guns are a joke for even a small gang.

I'm all for PVP when I have tools to fight or avoid, but this is a scenario with zero built-in fairness. I fail to see how it adds any value to the game.

My suggested fix:

Give players (at least un-fleeted ones) an escape option and balance that by giving campers more tools to catch players who are already in-system.

For example, combine these three changes:

* Make the free cloak stay on for the whole minute while slowboating, or stay on until you're in warp.

* Add a module to disable stargate use for a targeted ship, and create a delay (3 seconds, maybe) between warping to 0 and jumping through.

* Add a "warp to 300" option for gates

The end result:

If I jump through a camped gate, I'm not insta-dead, but I do have to stay in the system. I have the ability to scout gates without spending hours creating perch bookmarks for the systems I use a lot. Campers have the ability to prevent me leaving, and can still hunt me with probes and Dscan.



I don't support this idea at all. if one is in a small ship and that ship is fit right, it's very easy to survive. Dozens of gate camps have failed to kill my travel fit interceptor (yes, with all those intertia stabs it is basically abusing the 'server tick' time, but it works)

It's also why I always fit a tech2 cloak when traveling low or null without a scout. If you wait a few seconds after jumping (to clear that jump timer, then click jump on the gate you just came through, then MWD and Cloak, it's mechanically impossible for anyone (even a 'so called insta locker') to lock you up and even if they do, if you fit right (buffer tank your ship, even an inty) and use the right tactics (pre-heat mwd before activating), you get out fine.

There is even the old MWD/Cloak trick to get off a camped gate, but the margin of error is larger there of course.

Bottom line, there is no need for new game mechanics. You just need to get better at using the ones that exist, and when you do you can laugh your backsides off at campers.
Jasonne Ormand
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2015-12-02 17:42:05 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Perches are a thing I.e. a bookmark 2 or 300 off a gate you use regularly and have been beaten up at before.

So are scouts, I guarantee you the campers have one cloaked off the out gate so they know what is coming,
get to know who these are and which gates they like.

Also the mwd+cloak trick works perfectly fine once you figure it out.


Yes, I'm aware of the things you can do about gate camps. The point is it's a hassle and a time suck, and in no way fun.

The perches, in particular, are an obvious beef: Why does CCP make me waste time on them when they could just add a warp-to-300 option? Most things in this game already take quite a bit of time, travelling in particular.

This game already has huge time commitments built into it. Doubling the time you spend playing in order to avoid lame, inherently unfair mechanics is just silly.


Aivlis Eldelbar
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#8 - 2015-12-02 17:46:12 UTC
Jasonne Ormand wrote:
The point is it's a hassle and a time suck, and in no way fun.



So if other players spend time in an unfun way to kill you, would it balance out? Because that's what gatecamps are.
Jasonne Ormand
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2015-12-02 17:50:14 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


I don't support this idea at all. if one is in a small ship and that ship is fit right, it's very easy to survive. Dozens of gate camps have failed to kill my travel fit interceptor (yes, with all those intertia stabs it is basically abusing the 'server tick' time, but it works)
...

Bottom line, there is no need for new game mechanics. You just need to get better at using the ones that exist, and when you do you can laugh your backsides off at campers.


Yes yes, I get all that. Here's the point: All of that is a time suck, and just to avoid an inherently weak game mechanic. Yes, I could fly around exclusively in a blockade runner and never ever die, except of boredom.

Yes, I can have an interceptor alt and pre-travel every route before taking the ship I actually want to use. But why? So you can win a series of lopsided, pointless ambushes with 10 of your friends?

Instead of making me work harder in my T1 frigate, why shouldn't the gate camper have to work a little harder to kill the ships he's looking for instead of being lazy and exploiting weak mechanics?
Iain Cariaba
#10 - 2015-12-02 17:52:30 UTC
Jasonne Ormand wrote:
I'm not a carebear

This thread says otherwise. Being a carebear is a mindset, not where you live. There are carebears in all areas of EvE.

Jasonne Ormand wrote:
However, when I'm alone in a small ship and jump through a gate into a cluster of 10 campers, it's an unavoidable death unless I'm in a covops ship. I have no way of peeking the other side. I have no way to escape once I'm there if they have marginally competent tacklers. They have no reason not to explode me. Gate guns are a joke for even a small gang.

You understand that one of the Ms in MMO stands for multiplayer, right? If you want to solo PvE in relative safety, stay in highsec. Otherwise, it is best to have friends in the game who are willing to help, be they corp/alliance mates or alts.

Jasonne Ormand wrote:
I'm all for PVP when I have tools to fight or avoid, but this is a scenario with zero built-in fairness. I fail to see how it adds any value to the game.

Welcome to EvE. As one of the CCP bigwigs once said, "EvE is not supposed to look like a cold, harsh, cruel world. It is supposed to be a cold, harsh, cruel world."

Scouts are a thing.
Using the map to see kill activity of the route you're travelling is a thing.
Insta-warping interceptors are a thing.
Jasonne Ormand
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2015-12-02 17:55:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Jasonne Ormand
Aivlis Eldelbar wrote:
Jasonne Ormand wrote:
The point is it's a hassle and a time suck, and in no way fun.



So if other players spend time in an unfun way to kill you, would it balance out? Because that's what gatecamps are.


The whole issue is that gate camps essentially fail the rock-paper-scissors style of game balance. This game is *fantastic* at counter-balancing all sorts of mechanics, especially considering how many mechanics it has.

Gate camps are the obvious outlier. They've had me scratching my head from day one.

Edited to add: They fail the rock-paper-scissors only when it comes to jumping through a gate into a camp. The ability to create perches solve this problem for camps inside your current system.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2015-12-02 17:58:56 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Get yourself a reputation as a hot dropper. Fly around in nano, warp speed mallers. Never see another camp again, ever.

Ed: I do concede the first bit is the work. The rewards though....oh man...hell you could take a in iteron anywhere and no-one will touch you.
Jasonne Ormand
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2015-12-02 18:03:42 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:

Welcome to EvE. As one of the CCP bigwigs once said, "EvE is not supposed to look like a cold, harsh, cruel world. It is supposed to be a cold, harsh, cruel world."

Scouts are a thing.
Using the map to see kill activity of the route you're travelling is a thing.
Insta-warping interceptors are a thing.


You know what else is a thing? The ability to create game mechanics that introduce adequate danger without also being a huge time-suck and without encouraging lazy game strategies.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#14 - 2015-12-02 18:05:49 UTC
I'm at a loss. The title says "A month into eve" and the description says "I've spent a bunch of time in HS, low sex, nul sex and wh"

They can't both be true.


If a month is enough time to spend a bunch of time in not one, but all areas of space - this is the wrong game for you.

Jasonne Ormand
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2015-12-02 18:09:56 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
I'm at a loss. The title says "A month into eve" and the description says "I've spent a bunch of time in HS, low sex, nul sex and wh"

They can't both be true.


If a month is enough time to spend a bunch of time in not one, but all areas of space - this is the wrong game for you.



A bunch of the time I've played. Yeah, not an Eve veteran, but that doesn't change the mechanics of gate camps, which I do understand correctly.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#16 - 2015-12-02 18:16:25 UTC
Jasonne Ormand wrote:
You know what else is a thing? The ability to create game mechanics that introduce adequate danger without also being a huge time-suck and without encouraging lazy game strategies.


Having an easy time solo in dangerous parts of space (LS/NS/WHs) shouldn't be a thing. This is a multiplayer game. Roam in gangs.

It's common sense that a 10 person gang has an advantage over a solo player.
Jasonne Ormand
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2015-12-02 18:22:40 UTC
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
Jasonne Ormand wrote:
You know what else is a thing? The ability to create game mechanics that introduce adequate danger without also being a huge time-suck and without encouraging lazy game strategies.


Having an easy time solo in dangerous parts of space (LS/NS/WHs) shouldn't be a thing. This is a multiplayer game. Roam in gangs.

It's common sense that a 10 person gang has an advantage over a solo player.


Having an easy time is not a thing, even if you nerf gate camps. I have to watch Dscan at all times no matter what I'm doing. A cloaky ship can ambush me with Dscan if I'm near a celestial. Wormholes are a whole other level of dangerous, and they're my favorite thing to do. They're also not plagued by one dumb mechanic used by everyone and their lazy mother.

With my proposed changes, a well organized gang can still trap me in a system, and still ambush players who forget to scout their out gate.
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
#18 - 2015-12-02 19:20:07 UTC
TBH, I don't really like gatecamps, myself. Different reasons, though. I don't find them problematic, I just think they're a boring chore that appeals only to the most shiftless and risk-averse of players.

That said, your proposed solutions are all far worse than the problem they're intended to cure, and, being only a month into the game, you definitely lack the requisite experience with the game to understand the unintended consequences of your suggestions.

For instance:

Quote:
Make the free cloak stay on for the whole minute while slowboating, or stay on until you're in warp.


So everyone gets a free minute of penalty-free cloaked positioning every time they jump?

OP as ****.

There's a reason cloaks carry heavy penalties when they're not fit to specialized ships.

Quote:
* Add a module to disable stargate use for a targeted ship, and create a delay (3 seconds, maybe) between warping to 0 and jumping through.


I don't get what you're trying to fix, here. This would result in FAR deadlier camps (but on the opposite side of the gate), as 3 seconds is more than enough for lock and activate, and then the person warping in has absolutely no recourse at all. When it's the warp-away side that's being camped, there are things you can do if you're prepared. Cloaky-MWD. Maybe burn away. Maybe burn back to the gate, even.

And travel gets just plain slower, too? Gross.

Quote:
* Add a "warp to 300" option for gates


Effortless very long range warpins are too tactically powerful, especially given that it sounds like the max targeting range will be increasing beyond 250km with the capital ship rewrite.

Is it really that hard to make perch bookmarks? First of all, you don't even need them in every system - only ones that don't have a celestial in D-scan range of the gate. I tend to just make them as I go with no additional time required. You don't need to be on grid, you just have to be close enough to scan. If I'm in null and a system is empty, if it makes sense WRT the distances involved, when I warp away from the gate I ctrl+b as soon as I'm off grid and, as I close on the destination gate, I do it again. Next time I come through, if the system is populated, I have a safe spot to scan the gate from. Takes no additional time at all.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#19 - 2015-12-02 19:28:17 UTC
Jasonne Ormand wrote:
Having an easy time is not a thing, even if you nerf gate camps. I have to watch Dscan at all times no matter what I'm doing. A cloaky ship can ambush me with Dscan if I'm near a celestial. Wormholes are a whole other level of dangerous, and they're my favorite thing to do. They're also not plagued by one dumb mechanic used by everyone and their lazy mother.

With my proposed changes, a well organized gang can still trap me in a system, and still ambush players who forget to scout their out gate.


You want to be able to bypass 10 man gangs as a solo player in dangerous space. That's asking for an easy time.

And as someone who has lived in WHs for longer than you've been playing the game, there are absolutely camps on exits to holes. If I have an exit that spits out close to very populated HS, you can bet your last ISK that I will camp it if there's nothing else going on.
Jasonne Ormand
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2015-12-02 19:41:25 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
TBH, I don't really like gatecamps, myself. Different reasons, though. I don't find them problematic, I just think they're a boring chore that appeals only to the most shiftless and risk-averse of players.


We're in total agreement there. Honestly, I don't even see how it's fun for the campers. I have respect for the guys who pop into my system and drop combat probes. They're actually working for a kill. They also tend to happily salute and move on if you say you spotted them. :-)

Quote:

That said, your proposed solutions are all far worse than the problem they're intended to cure, and, being only a month into the game, you definitely lack the requisite experience with the game to understand the unintended consequences of your suggestions.


Totally valid. The moral of the story is it's a dumb mechanic that results in suck gameplay. I was just trying to suggest *something* that was intended to have balance. Take away X, grant Y in return.

The problem could also be solved by discouraging the killing of small, individual, lower-tier ships. Make their cargo 100% vaporize if they were targeted by multiple ships, buff gate gun damage for suspects who attacked a weak ship with a fleet, etc.

Those no doubt have unintended consequences as stated, but the point is: There are ways to fix a bad mechanic. "Just get gud" isn't one of them.

Quote:
* Add a "warp to 300" option for gates


The thing about this is that bookmarks are easy to make.. They're just time consuming. This wouldn't be granting anyone an ability they don't already have, it'd just be saving time I could spend having actual fun.
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