These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Amarr Militia: The downfall of a once great army
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#161 - 2016-01-13 21:57:30 UTC
We both know that she is far too deluded to see the reasoning in that, dear. Best to gently sublimate her brutish, violent nature into a pursuit that could possibly be vaguely seen as noble and leave it at that.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#162 - 2016-01-13 22:01:37 UTC
Oh, I'd be more than happy to stay with the clan. Just release the rest of my people so they can do the same, and I'll leave Empire space for good. If anything, I'd be too busy to even be in space. It'd let all of us focus on our own in our own territories, and let the mindless howling apes both our sides have to contend with fling their feces at each other without us ever having to get involved again.
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#163 - 2016-01-13 22:07:06 UTC
The best way to free them is to lay down your arms and prove to every Holder that Minmatar are worth freeing.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#164 - 2016-01-13 22:14:02 UTC
Given what history has shown throughout... well, all of recorded history, you'll have to forgive us for not trusting the Empire to ever willingly release anything until the indoctrination is complete.
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#165 - 2016-01-13 22:19:01 UTC
It is still a better option than what you are trying.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#166 - 2016-01-13 22:21:13 UTC
Given the amount of men, women and children who now live free thanks to efforts made by some of us, I'm afraid you can't back that statement up with anything but unsubstantiated claims.
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#167 - 2016-01-13 22:35:09 UTC
Ah, yes, the few tens of thousands you freed compared to the millions that were forcibly bred in that time, and the billions that had their leashes tightened because of your loud, frighting, explosive actions that cause holders to forget they are supposed to be educating their charges, not guarding them from raids and themselves from insurrection.

There are only two outcomes of actions such as yours: the genocide of the Minmatar people, or the genocide of the Amarr people. I already know which you would prefer, but I do not think either option is preferable compared to a peaceful transition that could leave both of our nations intact.

But please, I'm sorry for interrupting your short-sighted train of thought. Where were we going with this? Oh, yes! Go back to Auga and set up a base. You'll need to bolster your border if you don't want the Crusade's forward momentum to overtake your homelands.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#168 - 2016-01-13 22:42:56 UTC
The Crusade could take the entire warzone and it'd have no effect on my homelands. Territory has never mattered for much but bragging rights in the proxy wars, you know that.

That you're trying to blame outsiders for your own kind forcibly breeding slaves and the suffering you inflict upon them is rather telling, though. I wonder if you actually believe that nonsensical drivel? Ah well, chickens and eggs. It matters little. While you inflict suffering upon my people, I am bound tighter than any chains could to double my efforts and the money I funnel into the staircase and other means. Whichever causes which doesn't really seem to matter, it'd seem.

You'll never willingly release them, so we will have to forcibly take them.
Kador Ouryon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#169 - 2016-01-13 22:46:12 UTC
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
The Crusade could take the entire warzone and it'd have no effect on my homelands. Territory has never mattered for much but bragging rights in the proxy wars, you know that.

That you're trying to blame outsiders for your own kind forcibly breeding slaves and the suffering you inflict upon them is rather telling, though. I wonder if you actually believe that nonsensical drivel? Ah well, chickens and eggs. It matters little. While you inflict suffering upon my people, I am bound tighter than any chains could to double my efforts and the money I funnel into the staircase and other means. Whichever causes which doesn't really seem to matter, it'd seem.

You'll never willingly release them, so we will have to forcibly take them.


You have an historic example of the Empire willingly releasing slaves and you choose to disregard it and that never again should this repeat... how short sighted.

What fills the soul? Something that guides a lost child back to it's parents arms. Or waves that dye the shores of the heart gold. A blessed breath to nurture life in a land of wheat. Or the path the Sef descend drawn in ash. In the wake of fire.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#170 - 2016-01-13 22:53:15 UTC
Kador Ouryon wrote:
You have an historic example of the Empire willingly releasing slaves and you choose to disregard it and that never again should this repeat... how short sighted.

Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
Given what history has shown throughout... well, all of recorded history, you'll have to forgive us for not trusting the Empire to ever willingly release anything until the indoctrination is complete.


You still haven't seemed to master that "reading the posts in the thread before responding" concept, have you?
Mitara Newelle
Newelle Family
#171 - 2016-01-13 23:03:22 UTC
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
Just release the rest of my people...

It has been said and demonstrated more times than I can remember, but apparently it needs repeating - Those of Matari blood living within the Empire are not your people any longer, they are our people, and have been for quite some time. You have no claim to them.

Lady Mitara Newelle of House Sarum, Holder of the Mekhios province of Damnidios Para'nashu, Champion of House Sarum, Sworn Upholder of the Faith, Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Admiral of Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#172 - 2016-01-13 23:15:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Aldrith Shutaq
Oh Mizhara... so very good at arguing, but also so very bad.

I am sorry for the miscommunication. I did not mean to suggest that the violent actions of free Minmatar are solely to blame for the poor treatment of Minamtar slaves, but that they exasperated it. I think I have already made my position on slavery clear, including how it should be properly conducted and how the Reclaiming ought to be pursued in lieu of the conquest and further enslavement of the cluster. I may be inclined to change those ideas, however, now that my family have been made Sarum holders. Still, despite the political risks I incur to myself, I will endeavor to express my ideals as best as I may, to the betterment of both our peoples and humanity at large. You are welcome for that.

Anyway, having addressed your faux pas in calling me a believer of nonsensical drivel (which I am most certainly not, I actively fight against that sort of thing), I would like to address your final statement.

Empress Jamyl I, God rest her soul, freed more slaves with a single decree than free Matari ever have in all their days of raiding and fighting, save for in the rebellion itself. You will not achieve your goals with violence, and even if it were possible, the cost would be so great that you would have become far worse than what you fight. Despite what you think, it is possible to be freed from bondage in the Empire. The Udorians did it, we Ni-Kunni did it, and I have faith that the Matari will do it as well. It will take time, and internal pressure towards official reform and cultural evolution, but it will happen, even if it is slowed by the willfully ignorant such as yourself.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#173 - 2016-01-13 23:39:29 UTC
Mitara Newelle wrote:
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
Just release the rest of my people...

It has been said and demonstrated more times than I can remember, but apparently it needs repeating - Those of Matari blood living within the Empire are not your people any longer, they are our people, and have been for quite some time. You have no claim to them.


Your kind demonstrated quite eloquently that having a claim is rather irrelevant if you have the strength to take them. They weren't yours to take back then, nor are they yours now. They belong to themselves and until they are freed they do not have the agency to be their own.

You can feel free to claim otherwise of course, but just like my words will not make you let my people go, I doubt you'll be able to stop me from taking them myself. So far, neither have your armed forces.

Quote:
Anyway, having addressed your faux pas in calling me a believer of nonsensical drivel (which I am most certainly not, I actively fight against that sort of thing), I would like to address your final statement.


I'd say it was fair game to question if that were the case.

Quote:
Empress Jamyl I, God rest her soul, freed more slaves with a single decree than free Matari ever have in all their days of raiding and fighting, save for in the rebellion itself. You will not achieve your goals with violence, and even if it were possible, the cost would be so great that you would have become far worse than what you fight. Despite what you think, it is possible to be freed from bondage in the Empire. The Udorians did it, we Ni-Kunni did it, and I have faith that the Matari will do it as well. It will take time, and internal pressure towards official reform and cultural evolution, but it will happen, even if it is slowed by the willfully ignorant such as yourself.


I think we've gone over this bit a few dozen times by now, but I suppose we can do it again.

Your #NoEmpress freed no slaves. She took countless poor indoctrinated souls and used them as ammunition in the greatest weapon ever fired upon another nation in known history. Unleashing indoctrinated zealots in countless numbers upon the Tribes, in what I'll admit was a masterful double strike letting her use it for propaganda and public relations while doing quite significant financial and systemic damage to the Tribes. It's brilliant. It's genius. It's one of the greatest acts of evil in modern history.

The amount of suffering she inflicted on them and others with that act of war is immeasurable, I suspect.

This is yet another example of what I have been saying all along. You will never release anything that isn't already indoctrinated and broken.

I wonder what it'd look like if every first-generation slave was freed? First and second, perhaps? Third? I imagine that'd be a less... successful weapon against us.
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#174 - 2016-01-14 00:11:04 UTC
I see. You are not interested in seeing people freed from slavery, only people who agree with you.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#175 - 2016-01-14 00:17:06 UTC
That's a rather liberal re-interpretation of what I said. There's a difference between freeing people from slavery and using them as a weapon. Free them all and let them go where they please, no matter their generation, faith or political stance. That'd be freeing slaves and people.

The poor fools you used as weapons will unfortunately be slaves the rest of their lives, leashed more firmly than anything you can physically inflict upon a human being.

Don't pretend you don't see the difference. It is unbecoming to lie quite so blatantly.
Kador Ouryon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#176 - 2016-01-14 01:12:45 UTC
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:


You still haven't seemed to master that "reading the posts in the thread before responding" concept, have you?


I did miss that so fair point.

What fills the soul? Something that guides a lost child back to it's parents arms. Or waves that dye the shores of the heart gold. A blessed breath to nurture life in a land of wheat. Or the path the Sef descend drawn in ash. In the wake of fire.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#177 - 2016-01-14 06:14:52 UTC
Interesting... Mizhara, are you seriously positing a hard limit of three generations for the release of slaves of Minmatar descent? That might constitute an actual starting point for negotiations.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#178 - 2016-01-14 06:49:05 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Interesting... Mizhara, are you seriously positing a hard limit of three generations for the release of slaves of Minmatar descent? That might constitute an actual starting point for negotiations.


It would seem I may have chosen my words poorly there. I wasn't considering that at all, but now that you mention it the subject might be worthy of discussion and deliberation, even though I think for most of us it's "all of them, or the fight continues". It'll probably be so for me. They don't need to be Tribes friendly to deserve freedom and have this inhumane and barbaric practice forced upon them.

Still, it is certainly an interesting notion that I would have to think about and consider with care. Probably reach out to the experienced specialists we used during our attempts to undo the massive conditioning and indoctrination and get their data and opinions, for that matter.

I was not positing a hard limit, no, but for transparency's sake this discussion should be had in case it has merit. I doubt it, in the end, but no stone unturned etc.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#179 - 2016-01-14 10:41:34 UTC
I don't know, why are you even talking with this tribal dog.
It is already clear that she comes for "her people", as she calls Amarr citizens of Minmatar origin to kidnap them. She is a terrorist and rabid dog that's better be shot down instead of being talked to.

Mizhara lacks ability to learn and understand, she is blinded by her hatred. People like her will never learn disregarding how logical your reasons will be and how many you will repeat them.

Really. Just shoot her down.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Grash Uriza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#180 - 2016-01-15 03:33:42 UTC
ValentinaDLM wrote:


There were not standing orders "not to engage" HB. There isn't anyone in any position in the Minmatar milita that could even give or enforce an order like that.


Where's the a whip there's a way. It's just that we were holding the whip. P