These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Do I understand this correctly?
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
#321 - 2011-12-13 14:57:55 UTC
Vernn wrote:
Tippia wrote:

It's not griefing — it's just standard suicide ganking.
The purpose of a security rating is to make things a bit more difficult for the pirates, and make them legal targets for anyone to attack.



So suicide ganking isn't griefing? Lets be honest, we are splitting hairs at this point.

Make things a bit more difficult for pirates? They don't seem to be having any difficulties. In fact it doesn't seem to have slowed them down at all.

Make them legal targets to attack? Why would anyone attack them when they are flying around throw away ships? There is no motivation.


Because you pay me. Pay me and I will babysit your mining operation. I will bring even logistic support if you pay enough, no big deal. Anything with a negative security standing will be attack preemptive, just to keep your under-tanked miner safe. And before you mention that you do not make enough with mining to pay me and my buddies to oversee your mining ops, I strongly recommend you increase the amount of hulks in your mining ops. Another advantage will be that your orca will be utilized better this way too.
I think about 8 years ago that was the idea behind mining corporations, but well times changed any mining is less lucrative than it was than. I do not know if mining corps actually still exists.

Remove insurance.
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#322 - 2011-12-13 15:06:13 UTC
Tenris Anis wrote:
Vernn wrote:
Tippia wrote:

It's not griefing — it's just standard suicide ganking.
The purpose of a security rating is to make things a bit more difficult for the pirates, and make them legal targets for anyone to attack.



So suicide ganking isn't griefing? Lets be honest, we are splitting hairs at this point.

Make things a bit more difficult for pirates? They don't seem to be having any difficulties. In fact it doesn't seem to have slowed them down at all.

Make them legal targets to attack? Why would anyone attack them when they are flying around throw away ships? There is no motivation.


Because you pay me. Pay me and I will babysit your mining operation. I will bring even logistic support if you pay enough, no big deal. Anything with a negative security standing will be attack preemptive, just to keep your under-tanked miner safe. And before you mention that you do not make enough with mining to pay me and my buddies to oversee your mining ops, I strongly recommend you increase the amount of hulks in your mining ops. Another advantage will be that your orca will be utilized better this way too.
I think about 8 years ago that was the idea behind mining corporations, but well times changed any mining is less lucrative than it was than. I do not know if mining corps actually still exists.


Since we reached page 17

How are you intending to protect an well tanked hulk against 3 x 1400mm tornadoes ? Well except warp out...shout. But than all you do is providing "intel" for money. which is cool, but exploitable .. alas scam.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#323 - 2011-12-13 15:09:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
How are you intending to protect an well tanked hulk against 3 x 1400mm tornadoes ?
A well-tanked Hulk has a fair chance of survival against three tornadoes as it is…
Vyl Vit wrote:
You have to get used to Tippia's circular logic.
Such as?
Quote:
If your question is: Do the laws in sovereign (empire) space seem a bit like spaghetti draining in a tennis racket. Yes, they are precisely that.
Not really, no. The laws are pretty darn clear, consistent, and easy to understand.
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#324 - 2011-12-13 15:14:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaroslav Unwanted
Tippia wrote:
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
How are you intending to protect an well tanked hulk against 3 x 1400mm tornadoes ?
A well-tanked Hulk has a fair chance of survival against three tornadoes as it is…
Vyl Vit wrote:
You have to get used to Tippia's circular logic.
Such as?
Quote:
If your question is: Do the laws in sovereign (empire) space seem a bit like spaghetti draining in a tennis racket. Yes, they are precisely that.
Not really, no. The laws are pretty darn clear, consistent, and easy to understand.


about 0.. unless he warp out...

lets have a look at hypothetical 60k ehp hulk

3x1400mm tornadoes at hypothetical 11k volley .. each can shot twice... thats 22k volley x3 = 66k .. if they know the weakest resist on that hulk .. they will kill it in single volley..

So no ..

Doesnt matter... i dont say its broken.. its just way it is..
sudo rm
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#325 - 2011-12-13 15:18:58 UTC
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
How are you intending to protect an well tanked hulk against 3 x 1400mm tornadoes ?
A well-tanked Hulk has a fair chance of survival against three tornadoes as it is…
Vyl Vit wrote:
You have to get used to Tippia's circular logic.
Such as?
Quote:
If your question is: Do the laws in sovereign (empire) space seem a bit like spaghetti draining in a tennis racket. Yes, they are precisely that.
Not really, no. The laws are pretty darn clear, consistent, and easy to understand.


about 0.. unless he warp out...

lets have a look at hypothetical 60k ehp hulk

3x1400mm tornadoes at hypothetical 11k volley .. each can shot twice... thats 22k volley x3 = 66k .. if they know the weakest resist on that hulk .. they will kill it in single volley..

So no ..

Doesnt matter... i dont say its broken.. its just way it is..


Three fitted tornados approach the cost of a hulk. This entire conversation is silly.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#326 - 2011-12-13 15:21:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
3x1400mm tornadoes at hypothetical 11k volley .. each can shot twice... thats 22k volley x3 = 66k .. if they know the weakest resist on that hulk .. they will kill it in single volley..
…so stay in space where they can only shoot once, since yes, the Hulk can survive a triple volley. And as pointed out above — the risk for the pirates is at this point higher than for the miner, so what's the problem?
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#327 - 2011-12-13 15:27:11 UTC
sudo rm wrote:


Three fitted tornados approach the cost of a hulk. This entire conversation is silly.


suicide ganking as it is now, is not about isk.. Its about because i can and i am bored.
well what about 10x destroyer of choice... its about 7k dps .. hulk will melt in about 5s for sure.. cost 20-30mil ..

Its how the game works. And i dont care.. I cant prevent it and will not contribute in such.

point is if you get 50000 bassilisks and 5000000 guardians reping you .. you still gonna get one-shotted if the assaulter chose to.

You cant prevent it by any other means then warping off before a lock. Therefore defending/support fleet for mining ops in high/low sec are pointless...

Thats the way it is, and as i said before i dont really mind.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#328 - 2011-12-13 15:29:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
suicide ganking as it is now, is not about isk.
True enough (at least not in the classic sense of looking at the ship loss as an investment in immediate gains — there's most certainly ISK involved in the background in many of the current ganks).

But the argument against suicide ganking often is (just look at the OP of this thread).

…and that is probably part of why he's having such problems. vOv
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#329 - 2011-12-13 15:34:42 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
suicide ganking as it is now, is not about isk.
True enough (at least not in the classic sense of looking at the ship loss as an investment in immediate gains — there's most certainly ISK involved in the background in many of the current ganks).

But the argument against suicide ganking often is (just look at the OP of this thread).

…and that is probably part of why he's having such problems. vOv


*nods.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#330 - 2011-12-13 15:41:21 UTC
Vernn wrote:
I cannot be bothered to defend myself.
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
#331 - 2011-12-13 15:50:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Tenris Anis
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:

How are you intending to protect an well tanked hulk against 3 x 1400mm tornadoes ? Well except warp out...shout. But than all you do is providing "intel" for money. which is cool, but exploitable .. alas scam.


Are we still talking about -10 sec status targets? ;-)

Because I somehow doubt that the answer "Pew pew them with 1400mm maelstroms" was not kinda obvious in the first place. Unfortunately this is no guarantee that a hulk will survive, because the hulk pilot(s) could be slow with his warp out, those tornadoes could have a good warp in points and claiming first strike is not easy, even when using remote sensor boosters.

Still if miners stay aligned and are on the hood chances are not to bad, and 3 tornadoes for one hulk is anyway a fair deal, especially if you can loot them even when your hulks warp out in time.


And btw against 10 destroyers a single logistic should be able to make all the difference already.

Remove insurance.
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
#332 - 2011-12-13 15:53:12 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
3x1400mm tornadoes at hypothetical 11k volley .. each can shot twice... thats 22k volley x3 = 66k .. if they know the weakest resist on that hulk .. they will kill it in single volley..
…so stay in space where they can only shoot once, since yes, the Hulk can survive a triple volley. And as pointed out above — the risk for the pirates is at this point higher than for the miner, so what's the problem?


Care to explain how you survive a 33k alpha in a hulk?

Remove insurance.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#333 - 2011-12-13 15:55:44 UTC
Tenris Anis wrote:
Care to explain how you survive a 33k alpha in a hulk?
By having more than 33k EHP.
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
#334 - 2011-12-13 15:58:57 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
You can think whatever you want about the OP, you can think whatever you want about how "harsh" New Eden should or should not be. But what the game will have to face continually is people unsubscribing over being harassed for as long as it is tolerated.


Bingo. Being able to kill essentially defenseless ships is a "feature" of EvE. One that keeps subscriber numbers in check. I'm torn as to whether that's a good thing for the game in general. It's a tossup between having a small dedicated community, which has many benefits for the players, or a massive community which would benefit the players in terms of CCP being able to expand devolpment because of added revenue.

The forum community seems content with the current situation, though.
Thomas Abernathy
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#335 - 2011-12-13 15:59:24 UTC
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
sudo rm wrote:


Three fitted tornados approach the cost of a hulk. This entire conversation is silly.


suicide ganking as it is now, is not about isk.. Its about because i can and i am bored.
well what about 10x destroyer of choice... its about 7k dps .. hulk will melt in about 5s for sure.. cost 20-30mil ..

Its how the game works. And i dont care.. I cant prevent it and will not contribute in such.

point is if you get 50000 bassilisks and 5000000 guardians reping you .. you still gonna get one-shotted if the assaulter chose to.

You cant prevent it by any other means then warping off before a lock. Therefore defending/support fleet for mining ops in high/low sec are pointless...

Thats the way it is, and as i said before i dont really mind.



The smart kids will have dps on station, and instapop a couple before you can get a second shot off. So you just wasted a few ships...but they are cheap....
Not to mention the coordination required with 10 people.
And since the Goons can't find more than a few people with alts to gank now, they stick with BC's and easy targets mostly. Cool

And FYI, if you can't insta pop a repped ship, you won't pop it at all. But please bring your show to Gallente space, I look forward to the lol's...



"Fighting CCD since 2139"
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
#336 - 2011-12-13 16:00:38 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Tenris Anis wrote:
Care to explain how you survive a 33k alpha in a hulk?
By having more than 33k EHP.


If you do not care to explain how you fit a hulk with more than 33k ehp that is fine with me. No reason to be snappy.

Remove insurance.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#337 - 2011-12-13 16:03:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Ana Vyr wrote:
Being able to kill essentially defenseless ships is a "feature" of EvE.
It's not so much a “feature” as an absolute requirement to make the economy and industry and the political game work…
Tenris Anis wrote:
If you do not care to explain how you fit a hulk with more than 33k ehp that is fine with me. No reason to be snappy.
It's a bit of a squeeze, but it's entirely possible. Just fit as many tank modules as you can.
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#338 - 2011-12-13 16:05:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Astrid Stjerna
Vernn wrote:
If I go into an ice belt in a barge to mine, I can get ganked repeatedly by someone with a -10 security status?

Someone who is supposed to be insta killed by concord can somehow warp to me and kill me over and over again in practically free ships?

I have no problem whatsoever with being ganked, so long as they take the security hit, and after several times concord instagibs them. Keeps the game fun having to pay attention for stuff like that.

However are you seriously telling me that this game has come to the point where I can lose multimillion isk ships in high sec to someone who has -10 sec rating over and over again?

Really?


*stunned*


You were ice mining....and got ganked...and you were in (I assume) Gallente space....

Aren't the Goons putting pressure on ice-mining in that region?

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
#339 - 2011-12-13 16:09:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Tenris Anis
Tippia wrote:
Ana Vyr wrote:
Being able to kill essentially defenseless ships is a "feature" of EvE.
It's not so much a “feature” as an absolute requirement to make the economy and industry and the political game work…
Tenris Anis wrote:
If you do not care to explain how you fit a hulk with more than 33k ehp that is fine with me. No reason to be snappy.
It's a bit of a squeeze, but it's entirely possible. Just fit as many tank modules as you can.


I like your style, but don´t you think they will smell the trap if your hulk is not shooting lasers and still is just at 31k ehp?

edit: updated to a better fitting, maybe I should use faction invus ... Oo
edit 2: OK, Tech 2 Field Extenders did the trick 33.9k, unfortunately this is still below alpha of 3 tornadoes with quake. And still without miners it is pointless.

Remove insurance.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#340 - 2011-12-13 16:16:06 UTC
Tenris Anis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Ana Vyr wrote:
Being able to kill essentially defenseless ships is a "feature" of EvE.
It's not so much a “feature” as an absolute requirement to make the economy and industry and the political game work…
Tenris Anis wrote:
If you do not care to explain how you fit a hulk with more than 33k ehp that is fine with me. No reason to be snappy.
It's a bit of a squeeze, but it's entirely possible. Just fit as many tank modules as you can.


I like your style, but don´t you think they will smell the trap if your hulk is not shooting lasers and is using 158% of its powergrid and still is just at 31k ehp?



with the recent addition of the graphical bugs that eat the lasers... having them or not doesn't matter so much anyway Bear

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia