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Dev blog: Dirt & Killmarks - Dirt and Destruction in New Eden

First post First post
Author
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#41 - 2015-11-29 09:58:25 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Markus Reese wrote:
Question about a specific hull.

The rattlesnake

It already has wear in leading edges, sign of a prolonged life and wear from space dust. Particularly on the sharp edges. Will the rattler skin be revised for this and will other ships develop this "wear"

Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Some quick thoughts...

- most of your players are PvErs, and they tend to stick for long with their ships. What made you think that they would not enjoy/deserve showing kill marks and battle scars on their ships? Specially since PvE ships see 100x more violence than the average die-too-young PvP ship... Roll

- dirt and killmarks are fine. But if you want a real challenge, make EVE's suns dim and shrink over distance in a realistic way. For 7 years I've never achieved to pretend that I'm traveling billions of kilometers around a "star" that shines continuously like a lightbulb in the middle of a room... Ugh


As somebody who pve's a different take on this might be in order. Standings perhaps can earn/lose you marks with factions. The PvE version of a killmark can be for being in tops of completing incursions or something if they get revised. This way ships get medals of honor for surviving high risk pve encounters or rare escalations. Something that can be lost, but not just awarded for farming a status quo.


Certainly some system could be worked out. Risk and reward and yadda yadda yadda. 1 kill mark for completing 10 succesful missions and whatever.

Yet the point is CCP has not even *thought* about rewarding PvErs.

Who fight more? PvErs
Who value their ships more? PvErs
Who keep their ships longer? PvErs

So CCP rewards, for their loyalty using their ships a lot and keeping them alive, the PvPrs. And PvErs can just pay another month of subscription and eat sh*t.


We have absolutely thought about adding the ability for PVE kills to give killmarks. Killmarks for killing tougher NPCs (like faction spawn, burners, overseers) is something we investigated internally but unfortunately we don't currently have an easily accessible source of that data like we do for PVP kills (thanks to kill reports). It's still something I'd definitely like to see us do but it was out of scope for the initial feature launch.

If you would like to make killmarks for PvE, than the only kind worthy of such killmark would be a named NPC officer spawn.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#42 - 2015-11-29 14:48:00 UTC
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We have absolutely thought about adding the ability for PVE kills to give killmarks. Killmarks for killing tougher NPCs (like faction spawn, burners, overseers) is something we investigated internally but unfortunately we don't currently have an easily accessible source of that data like we do for PVP kills (thanks to kill reports). It's still something I'd definitely like to see us do but it was out of scope for the initial feature launch.

If you would like to make killmarks for PvE, than the only kind worthy of such killmark would be a named NPC officer spawn.


There are many ways to add free cosmethic rewards for playing the game. Type marks for killing certain amount of NPCs could be a way.

So far kill marks are just a missed opportunity (yet another) to do something about the slow bleeding of PvE players.
CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#43 - 2015-11-29 15:43:45 UTC
Rock Oyok wrote:
Please reconsider. Time spent in a hangar should not count towards ship age. Let them gather dirt only when (if) they are actually out there and in use.

We did consider this, and we like the idea too. The result was that that additional complexity would have required additional time to implement that we simply do not have at this point, with all the other features coming up. It's always possible this might be revisited in the future, but probably not soon.

Quote:
Also I second requests for completely opting out of both possibilities - the feature per se, and the "clean ship" button - some players would absolutely hate to accidentally clean their rust buckets, while others would be forced to "clean ship" at every pit stop...

The primary difference between "Medium" and "High" shader settings is the dirt feature. If you set your shader quality to "Medium," you will have a permanently-clean ship, and few (if any) other visual differences.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins

Helene Fidard
CTRL-Q
#44 - 2015-11-30 05:59:55 UTC
Team TriLambda wrote:
The final blow is more than simply a moment when danger ebbs because the number of enemies has decreased by one. It’s not just a decluttering of the overview. The final blow is one of the most satisfying events in EVE Online. Accordingly, we think that delivering a final blow should have an impact beyond the UI.

yes, I definitely believe this is the reason you're attaching kill marks to final blows

Hey! I don't know about you

but I'm joining CTRL-Q

Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#45 - 2015-11-30 07:11:03 UTC
Is gathering dirt stops at some point? How fast will it be? I have 2 years tengu and I wonder how will it look like?

Bagrat Skalski wrote:

If you would like to make killmarks for PvE, than the only kind worthy of such killmark would be a named NPC officer spawn.

I wouldn't mind overseers kills on my stratios hull. They are not so common and don't spawn every time.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Knitram Relik
Atomic Amish
#46 - 2015-11-30 09:48:40 UTC
I would like to see POS towers added to the list of things you can get a mark for. Blowing one up can put a major kink in the day of the victim.

"The problem with quotes on the internet is that it's really hard to verify their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln

Aineko Macx
#47 - 2015-11-30 11:38:12 UTC
Do the killmarks accumulate per ship, ship type or character? I.e. my ship gets blown up and I buy a new one, will it have the same amount of marks?
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#48 - 2015-11-30 13:49:19 UTC
Aineko Macx wrote:
Do the killmarks accumulate per ship, ship type or character? I.e. my ship gets blown up and I buy a new one, will it have the same amount of marks?



Per ship.

repackage a ship, or have it blown up, and the killmarks are gone.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#49 - 2015-11-30 18:30:53 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Is gathering dirt stops at some point? How fast will it be? I have 2 years tengu and I wonder how will it look like?


Dirt accumulation never stops, but it does asymptotically approach a limit over long periods of time. The difference in look between one and two years is distinct, but between two and ten years it's pretty subtle.

Also, note that all ships have been reset to a clean state to start, and the accumulation of dirt begins the first time you sit in a given ship. In the future, ships you assemble but don't sit in will not accumulate dirt until you enter the ship, at least in your hangar.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins

Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#50 - 2015-11-30 18:33:43 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Is gathering dirt stops at some point? How fast will it be? I have 2 years tengu and I wonder how will it look like?


Dirt accumulation never stops, but it does asymptotically approach a limit over long periods of time. The difference in look between one and two years is distinct, but between two and ten years it's pretty subtle.

Also, note that all ships have been reset to a clean state to start, and the accumulation of dirt begins the first time you sit in a given ship. In the future, ships you assemble but don't sit in will not accumulate dirt until you enter the ship, at least in your hangar.


what if i assemble the ship and than launch it from corp hangar on a pos and never enter it and leave it hanging in forcefield for years?
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#51 - 2015-11-30 18:41:33 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Aineko Macx wrote:
Do the killmarks accumulate per ship, ship type or character? I.e. my ship gets blown up and I buy a new one, will it have the same amount of marks?



Per ship.

repackage a ship, or have it blown up, and the killmarks are gone.


So here is interesting twist: a single repackaged item (a ship in this example) that is than assembled again, as long as the newly created stack of 1 items was not merged with another (so assembing from 1 item stack) produce item with the same item id as the irem that was repackaged - will it also remove killmarks in this scenario?
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#52 - 2015-11-30 18:45:57 UTC
Anyone planning a "killmark" service? For a fee, they war dec you, then fly in with unfit frigs for you to explode.

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Midnight Hope
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2015-11-30 20:59:36 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Is gathering dirt stops at some point? How fast will it be? I have 2 years tengu and I wonder how will it look like?


Dirt accumulation never stops, but it does asymptotically approach a limit over long periods of time. The difference in look between one and two years is distinct, but between two and ten years it's pretty subtle.

Also, note that all ships have been reset to a clean state to start, and the accumulation of dirt begins the first time you sit in a given ship. In the future, ships you assemble but don't sit in will not accumulate dirt until you enter the ship, at least in your hangar.



So my ships look shiny and new even though I've owned them for years now?! VERY disappointing!! Moreover, am I reading this right? In order for my ships to start accruing dirt, I have to go around and sit in them once on the 8th to get the process started?? If I have a ship in a remote corner of New Eden it will keep looking brand new unless I sit in it?

I've been playing Eve for years and I expected that would show in my ships. Turns out my ships will look the same than those from a week old account!

Great feature, poor execution. Sad
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#54 - 2015-12-01 06:44:06 UTC
Midnight Hope wrote:
Great feature, poor execution. Sad

CCP propably never recorded when we first time use particular hull.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Cista2
EVE Museum
#55 - 2015-12-01 07:36:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Cista2
Those are wonderful features!
I assume that a ship will keep its killmarks when sold on contract, making way for emerging price differentiations (and scam possibilities).

But now that this is possible, it makes me lament that other thing which is not possible: shipbuilder's name on every ship in New Eden! I know it is not possible because ships are stackable regardless of maker, I just wish there was a way around it.
One option would be to add the name or intitials of the person that assembles a ship, but that person would rarely be the actual shipbuilder, and most ships will be repackaged for each resale anyhows :(

My channel: "Signatures" -

Aineko Macx
#56 - 2015-12-01 08:21:43 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Aineko Macx wrote:
Do the killmarks accumulate per ship, ship type or character? I.e. my ship gets blown up and I buy a new one, will it have the same amount of marks?

Per ship.
repackage a ship, or have it blown up, and the killmarks are gone.

Then sadly the feature will be of little value, as it won't be a proper epeen measure.
Orions Lord
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#57 - 2015-12-01 14:03:53 UTC
I like to see the ships turning really dirty I still think they are to clean after long periods.
Ariz Black
#58 - 2015-12-01 15:47:39 UTC
Max Kolonko wrote:
So here is interesting twist: a single repackaged item (a ship in this example) that is than assembled again, as long as the newly created stack of 1 items was not merged with another (so assembing from 1 item stack) produce item with the same item id as the irem that was repackaged - will it also remove killmarks in this scenario?

anything that resets the ship name (like repackaging) resets killmarks.
Natya Mebelle
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2015-12-01 22:48:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Natya Mebelle
You can skip the first part that is only idle rambling and continue reading after the horizontal line.

Quote:
While hulls don’t sag or fatten over the year, they should present visual marks of longevity. They accumulate dust, dirt, and detritus—a general accretion of filth earned by nothing more than the simple process of existing


I am seriously glad that you added the option to "clean ship" as a simple button press without any extra cost associated to it. But I still want to voice my opinion about your dirtyfication.

First, could we please get an option in the settings that says "auto-clean every time you dock" ? Because that would make sense, you know? If I am docking, I expect the station personnel to take care of my ship. The ship is being resupplied with all kinds of stuff and [insert other elaborate plausible reasons]. I like my housekeeping.

Even aside that, honestly, I don't quite understand why a ship should accumulate dirt over time at all. I mean, first there has to be dirt (space dust) around to begin with. Our ships don't fly on planets, and we also don't have a lot of material floating around in hard vacuum.
So if someone is not flying through dust clouds in missions or along asteroid belts, I question the availability of "space dust" anywhere else.

But hey, let's pretend we are doing plenty of mission running and/or mining in the same ship.
Don't we have, like, shields? And how about anti-adhesive coatings? Because I'm pretty sure it is an imperative to keep the ship hull clean because REASONS. In current existing technology, and even in nature, "self-cleaning" surfaces are a thing.

Sure, people will say "just press the stupid button". And again, I will voice my appreciation that the button EXISTS and it is not an artistic thing that is shoved down our throats. But I still would like to see an option that says "auto-clean ship in station". I do not want that extra click to be needed. I am a capsuleer. I have personnel for that kind of stuff.

Finally, I also hope the dirt does not accumulate over time but instead of time UNDOCKED.
If I undock after sitting in station for several days, and my ship is butt-ugly brown, I'll be laughing hysterically. *hint hint clean in station option hint hint*

_________________________________


But let me try to warn you before you go to far in your future vision: If you plan to add Battlescars to the hull, please be very VERY careful about that.

I don't want to see a shield tanked ship that never gets a hit on armor to suddenly receive one battle scar after the other on the hull.
I do not want to see my ship littered with battlescars if I armor tank, but never go into hull, and always dock with full armor.

Battlescars should be something that are a reminder of situations when things got really heavy. You managed to get out with low hull and repair up? That should be eligible for a battlescar. But even those should be able to be removed completely with an option. Hull damage is serious business. We're talking about breaches, explosions inside, whatever.

Sure, you can question now how that could be "exploited" but the kill counter can be "exploited" in the same way. So what? It only matters what is in your own memories and those of the pilots who flew with you on all those days.


Cista2 wrote:
But now that this is possible, it makes me lament that other thing which is not possible: shipbuilder's name on every ship in New Eden! I know it is not possible because ships are stackable regardless of maker, I just wish there was a way around it.
I want to believe this is going to happen in the future. Kill marks and stuff are only the first steps. I'm sure there is a way to retain builder's notice even if the ship is repackaged, and stacks would maybe receive an internal note about which ship was built by whom in the stack or something.
I also look forward to a "who has flown this ship" list which might not live through repackaging, but that's fine honestly.

Edit:
in fact, retaining builder's note could even be possible as of now. Think about containers. What is a container? It holds items. If we start to think about a stack of ships as a container that cannot be opened but shows the number of the type of items on the outside (only one type in this case) then we should be good to go.
if builder's tag ever happens, I'd like to see a difference between personal (pilot name) or corporation (corp name if built with corp funds)

Edit 2:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We have absolutely thought about adding the ability for PVE kills to give killmarks. Killmarks for killing tougher NPCs (like faction spawn, burners, overseers) is something we investigated internally but unfortunately we don't currently have an easily accessible source of that data like we do for PVP kills (thanks to kill reports)


You have the standings history of the faction. Right click -> Transactions. I don't know how reliable that is, but if named ships or something take more faction standing impact than non-named ships, then you could apply a kill counter for a certain threshold of unmodified standing change.
Alternatively, can't you just add a "tag" to these ships? I mean, aren't those ships eligible to drop faction and officer loot anyway? Doesn't that mean that you have a way to sort them by "loot" ? So in this case, add a killmark if it has a chance to drop something? I don't know, just throwing out ideas.
but in the case of doubt, add a new category in your database maybe that all "named ships" are part of. Horray important killcounters.
Alex Tharas
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#60 - 2015-12-02 00:23:43 UTC
Cista2 wrote:
Those are wonderful features!
I assume that a ship will keep its killmarks when sold on contract, making way for emerging price differentiations (and scam possibilities).

But now that this is possible, it makes me lament that other thing which is not possible: shipbuilder's name on every ship in New Eden! I know it is not possible because ships are stackable regardless of maker, I just wish there was a way around it.
One option would be to add the name or intitials of the person that assembles a ship, but that person would rarely be the actual shipbuilder, and most ships will be repackaged for each resale anyhows :(


To add to this, does the km stay if contracted or traded and gets another kill, you said counts for final shot but does it stay with pilot and ship or just ship? Either way just curious on the expectations.