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The 24th Red Crusade
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#41 - 2015-11-23 14:51:20 UTC
Aldur Vaako wrote:
Need I remind everyone here that the Amarr Empire considers the Blood Raiders Terrorists and a Pirate Organisation?

Yes, I have seen latest Omir's action that was clearly a terror act.

However, if used to describe them as enemies or criminal, why add word terrorist at all? Terrorism is just a poor man's war. To show that they are pity and incapable fighters?

Honestly, I would have expected them being called Cultists and Pirates, or Heretics and Pirates instead. Maybe I am mistaken, but I think both being cultist or heretic in the Empire is rather a criminal offense, no?

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Tamiroth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#42 - 2015-11-23 15:56:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Tamiroth
Honestly, I don't even know what is the purpose of this thread.

There's probably one actual open Blood Raider in the Amarr militia - Nauplius.

But I hope that everyone here is also well aware that:

- All, and I mean all, militias are full of mercenaries, privateers, profiteers, simply pirates and criminals of every possible sort.

- Independent pilots in general don't take anything seriously, but love to annoy the opposition and consider unfunny jokes a form of art, as well as taunting enemies in local.

So, before anyone begins to summon the Theology council, Speakers of Truth, discuss the relative downsides of being simply enslaved or bled to death, it would be wise to assume that if a militia pilot screams random things at you in local, it has like a 90% chance of having no relevance to reality whatsoever, and if you wasted even a second of your time reading his taunts, it means that he achieved his goal.
Aldur Vaako
Doomheim
#43 - 2015-11-23 15:57:22 UTC
A core tenet of our faith is redemption.

God's Light shines upon us all you just need to open your eyes to it and accept it.

Not all cultists are above redemption it isn't for us to grant it to them. so whilst it's true being a cultist is a criminal offense if they come back to God's teachings then there is a chance they may be saved in Heaven.

Heretic's are beyond saving however as they continually debase God and themselves. Hell is the only place for them.

A Cultist's redemption can only happen if they are captured alive which doesn't happen very often.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#44 - 2015-11-23 16:00:49 UTC
Lady Azaph,

I would though recommend to not level militia officers to some sort of null security alliance, who just spam local. They might be rough soldiers, but they aren't goons.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Goldfinch
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2015-11-23 16:40:27 UTC

Cain Aloga wrote:
I am not now, nor ever will be a member of your faith. As such I do not hope to lecture you on the nuances of your ideology. I am merely repeating to you the Message the Amarr Empire has has been broadcasting to my people for centuries. If I am mistaken, and the Reclamation, the effort to convert all people to your faith has been abandoned, and shall never again be taken up, please correct my mistake. There is no shame in being corrected by one who is more knowledgeable.


The discussion of Reclaiming thus far in this thread has characterized it as an act of war, and a driving force which will attempt to crush all Caldari culture under its boot. We disagree with this characterization of Empire at the present, though we will not deny the history we have with Matari.

Whether or not conversion to the Faith is a central mandate isn't the point. All cultures assimilate, and all cultures judge things they do not understand. To this point, even the Federation is not immune. What is important is that the Empire adheres to the treaties and agreements of CONCORD. The Empire follows these rules moreso than certain other members of CONCORD who have resorted to accord-breaking warfare to satisfy their own cultural mandates. Our adherence to CONCORD is so extreme that we even allow contraband in our markets.

You can laugh at what we've said so far, but there is no organized Amarr military effort to Reclaim your people or any others. The limited and encircled war zones that exist are systems where aggression is open to all. If you're going to judge Amarr war acts in these systems, then the same yardstick should be applied to Minmatar and Gallente war acts, too.



Quote:
Should you wish to engage in such a discussion with me, I shall gladly accept.


We thank you for your offer. An EVE Mail will be sent shortly so we may decide on a time and place.

\J/

veiled and bound

my origin story (on eve-backstage)
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#46 - 2015-11-23 21:00:20 UTC
Goldfinch wrote:
...What is important is that the Empire adheres to the treaties and agreements of CONCORD. The Empire follows these rules moreso than certain other members of CONCORD who have resorted to accord-breaking warfare to satisfy their own cultural mandates]...

Oh great, yet another slaver sympathizer comes onto the IGS and attempts to portray the imperials as victims. I would remind said sympathizer that had the Amarr not invaded and systematically committed genocide and kidnapping on a planetary scale that the Elder Fleet would have never existed. We'd have left the Amarrians alone because we'd have had no reason to attack them.

Sorry but, none of the other modern empires has invaded and attempted to convert at gunpoint another EXCEPT THE AMARR. And not only did you do it to us Minmatar you also tried it on the Jove so, you can't say your behavior was an aberration. It's a central tenet of your religion, philosophy and culture.

You and your masters, as the cluster's original aggressors, have no right to lecture anyone about the rule of law or play the aggrieved party.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Johanes Beaumonte
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#47 - 2015-11-23 21:19:24 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
Goldfinch wrote:
...What is important is that the Empire adheres to the treaties and agreements of CONCORD. The Empire follows these rules moreso than certain other members of CONCORD who have resorted to accord-breaking warfare to satisfy their own cultural mandates]...

Oh great, yet another slaver sympathizer comes onto the IGS and attempts to portray the imperials as victims. I would remind said sympathizer that had the Amarr not invaded and systematically committed genocide and kidnapping on a planetary scale that the Elder Fleet would have never existed. We'd have left the Amarrians alone because we'd have had no reason to attack them.

Sorry but, none of the other modern empires has invaded and attempted to convert at gunpoint another EXCEPT THE AMARR. And not only did you do it to us Minmatar you also tried it on the Jove so, you can't say your behavior was an aberration. It's a central tenet of your religion, philosophy and culture.

You and your masters, as the cluster's original aggressors, have no right to lecture anyone about the rule of law or play the aggrieved party.


You make the year 22480 it sound like it was yesterday instead of nearly 900 years ago. You hold grudges worse than my wife!
Kador Ouryon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2015-11-23 21:33:35 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:


You and your masters, as the cluster's original aggressors, have no right to lecture anyone about the rule of law or play the aggrieved party.


And yet we were the aggrieved.

Unlike in times prior to the formation of CONCORD there were bindng agreements in place that Emperor Heideran committed the Amarr to following. Slave taking for all intents and purpose ceased as it was made illegal, a relative peace was instituted, and even begrudgingly the sovereignty... or I suppose the formalisation of the Republic was recognised.

Yet some how the Elder's were simply able to flout modern laws and agreements through minor and baseless interpretations of their making and despite this no punishment or injunctions were levelled against the guilty parties.

What fills the soul? Something that guides a lost child back to it's parents arms. Or waves that dye the shores of the heart gold. A blessed breath to nurture life in a land of wheat. Or the path the Sef descend drawn in ash. In the wake of fire.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#49 - 2015-11-23 21:41:58 UTC
Kador Ouryon wrote:
Yet some how the Elder's were simply able to flout modern laws and agreements through minor and baseless interpretations of their making and despite this no punishment or injunctions were levelled against the guilty parties.

Yes, a group not sanctioned or supported by the republic attacked you. We're obviously to blame right? Just because they're Matari doesn't make them the republic. Does this mean we can blame the empire for whatever the Khanid did back when they were more independent?
Arrendis
TK Corp
#50 - 2015-11-23 22:04:05 UTC
Kador Ouryon wrote:
Yet some how the Elder's were simply able to flout modern laws and agreements through minor and baseless interpretations of their making and despite this no punishment or injunctions were levelled against the guilty parties.


You mean the Elders who weren't part of the Republic, but built and staged their fleet in the Thukker-held Great Wildlands, where none of the 'binding agreements' held sway?

Very good, sir. I assume, based on your logic, that when the Blood Raiders attack a ship, you consider that ship to have come under fire from the Amarr Empire, then?
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#51 - 2015-11-24 01:48:27 UTC
Tamiroth wrote:
There's probably one actual open Blood Raider in the Amarr militia - Nauplius.


If only that were so.

Anabella Rella wrote:
You and your masters, as the cluster's original aggressors, have no right to lecture anyone about the rule of law or play the aggrieved party.


No treaties existed between Amarr and the Minmatar during our first invasion. No law was broken.

Quote:
Sorry but, none of the other modern empires has invaded and attempted to convert at gunpoint another EXCEPT THE AMARR.


And the Federation, and the Republic, and the State.
Cain Aloga
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#52 - 2015-11-24 01:59:46 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:


Quote:
Sorry but, none of the other modern empires has invaded and attempted to convert at gunpoint another EXCEPT THE AMARR.


And the Federation, and the Republic, and the State.


I see the point you make, but if you'll allow me to nitpic at semantics, the argument in question is in regards to conversion. Let us use a rather general definition; the adoption of the ideological beliefs of others. In this regard, one could argue that at most TWO empires have done so through military means; the Amarr Empire and the Galante Federation. While the Republic and the State have engaged in military aggression, the express purpose is not conversion.

While our warriors fight for our people's freedom, we in turn should fight for our people's prosperity.
Kador Ouryon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2015-11-24 02:07:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Kador Ouryon
Deitra Vess wrote:
Kador Ouryon wrote:
Yet some how the Elder's were simply able to flout modern laws and agreements through minor and baseless interpretations of their making and despite this no punishment or injunctions were levelled against the guilty parties.

Yes, a group not sanctioned or supported by the republic attacked you. We're obviously to blame right? Just because they're Matari doesn't make them the republic. Does this mean we can blame the empire for whatever the Khanid did back when they were more independent?


I'm not necessarily levelling any particular grievance against the Republic itself.

More so remarking.... or responding to Ms Rella's statement. It was my understanding of her statement that she seemed to infer that somehow because of and act of aggression in keeping with the Amarr Faith's goal of Reclamation that we could not or should not claim to be victimised.

I'm not so much blaming anyone though, it wouldn't achieve anything nor would it point the dialogue in this thread in a positive or constructive direction.

Where our representatives had though they might have brokered some modicum of peace or perhaps a cold conflict with the Matari people as a whole the Elder's proved us wrong and made us subject to an unlawful attack. That CONCORD itself took no punitive action, nor the Republic itself was as I have said aggrieving enough.

Amusingly enough though yourself and other capsuleers more closely aligned with the Matari people seem altogether too keen to jump to the Elder's defence despite their actions mirroring those of the Empire despite the representative and supposedly governing body of the Republic holding agreements with the CONCORD signatory members.

What fills the soul? Something that guides a lost child back to it's parents arms. Or waves that dye the shores of the heart gold. A blessed breath to nurture life in a land of wheat. Or the path the Sef descend drawn in ash. In the wake of fire.
Cain Aloga
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#54 - 2015-11-24 02:17:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Cain Aloga
Kador Ouryon wrote:


Where our representatives had though they might have brokered some modicum of peace or perhaps a cold conflict with the Matari people as a whole the Elder's proved us wrong and made us subject to an unlawful attack. That CONCORD itself took no punitive action, nor the Republic itself was as I have said aggrieving enough.

Amusingly enough though yourself and other capsuleers more closely aligned with the Matari people seem altogether too keen to jump to the Elder's defence despite their actions mirroring those of the Empire despite the representative and supposedly governing body of the Republic did hold agreements with the CONCORD signatory members.


Again, I shall point to technicalities. When the Elder Fleet attacked the Amarr Empire, NO LAW OR TREATY WAS BROKEN. The Elders and the Thukkers who comprised that force were not members of any sovereign empire, nor were they themselves signatories of any treaty or accord. They were a foreign power. Concord could not take punitive action against any one because there was no one to take action against.

Kador Ouryon wrote:
despite their actions mirroring those of the Empire .


You are correct that one could draw parallels between the Fleets of Amarr that descended upon our ancestors and the Elder Fleet that invaded the Amarr Empire. There is however one very key difference. The Elder Fleets purpose was to liberate. Yours was to enslave.

Now, that there was no action taken within the Republic should not be surprising. We did after all cheer them on.

While our warriors fight for our people's freedom, we in turn should fight for our people's prosperity.
Neph
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#55 - 2015-11-24 02:41:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Neph
Kador Ouryon wrote:

Amusingly enough though yourself and other capsuleers more closely aligned with the Matari people seem altogether too keen to jump to the Elder's [sic] defence [sic] despite their actions mirroring those of the Empire...


While I have maintained that the Elder invasion was the most foolish act of humanity since the Amarr tried to reclaim the Jove, such a comparison is hardly fair. The Elder invasion was launched to free and restore enslaved peoples and crush all opposition. Last time I checked, that wasn't exactly the aim of the Amarr reclaiming fleets, but that was 900 years ago.

Anyways, the Elder stunt engulfed the cluster into war again and poisoned any hope for of diplomatic resolution regarding the Amarr slave situation for the next ten years--noble, kind of effective, but idiotic. I would invite everybody to forget about it and try working together again, but like hell will that ever happen. In the meantime we keep pushing the warzone back and forth while the Amarr still own our families.

Talk, mutually beneficial talk, is the only way to fix the steaming pile of **** we were served, but since nobody's interested in that, I'll just keep making money off the war and shittalking in local. Sometimes I consider it a shame I'm not nearly Practical enough to join the Amarr Militia, I hear their LP is worth a lot.

~ Gariushi YC110 // Midular YC115 // Yanala YC115 ~

"Orte Jaitovalte sitasuyti ne obuetsa useuut ishu. Ketsiak ishiulyn." -Yakiya Tovil-Toba-taisoka
Arrendis
TK Corp
#56 - 2015-11-24 02:47:44 UTC
Kador Ouryon wrote:
Where our representatives had though they might have brokered some modicum of peace or perhaps a cold conflict with the Matari people as a whole the Elder's proved us wrong and made us subject to an unlawful attack. That CONCORD itself took no punitive action, nor the Republic itself was as I have said aggrieving enough.


Precisely what 'punitive action' would you like CONCORD to have taken in an area where, according to the Yulai accords that created it, CONCORD has no power to enact punitive action?

Similarly, what punitive action would you like the Republic to have taken on dead men, considering the Elder Fleet was destroyed? Or would you have had the Minmatar Republic attack nomadic Thukker bands in the Great Wildlands, with no indications who actually constructed those ships?

After all, the Amarr never undertook reprisals against the Thukkers, despite having every piece of physical evidence available to any of the Empires?

Quote:

Amusingly enough though yourself and other capsuleers more closely aligned with the Matari people seem altogether too keen to jump to the Elder's defence despite their actions mirroring those of the Empire despite the representative and supposedly governing body of the Republic holding agreements with the CONCORD signatory members.


The Elders were not represented by the governing body of the Republic. They did not live in the Republic. They were not affiliated with the Republic.

Let's play a game of 'what if...?'

What If....


  1. Asher Elias, a member of Goonswarm, kidnaps your child.
  2. You vow to get your child back.
  3. Three years later, Alizabeth Vea and I make a deal that says I won't attack her, and she won't attack me. Neither one of us claims to speak for anyone but ourselves.


Are you now prohibited from seeking to free and recover your child, because 'goons' and 'amarr' have a legally-binding agreement?

Because that's roughly what you're complaining about.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#57 - 2015-11-24 02:48:03 UTC
Kador Ouryon wrote:


I'm not necessarily levelling any particular grievance against the Republic itself.

More so remarking.... or responding to Ms Rella's statement. It was my understanding of her statement that she seemed to infer that somehow because of and act of aggression in keeping with the Amarr Faith's goal of Reclamation that we could not or should not claim to be victimised.

...
(addressed Separate)
...

Where our representatives had though they might have brokered some modicum of peace or perhaps a cold conflict with the Matari people as a whole the Elder's proved us wrong and made us subject to an unlawful attack. That CONCORD itself took no punitive action, nor the Republic itself was as I have said aggrieving enough.

Amusingly enough though yourself and other capsuleers more closely aligned with the Matari people seem altogether too keen to jump to the Elder's defence despite their actions mirroring those of the Empire despite the representative and supposedly governing body of the Republic holding agreements with the CONCORD signatory members.
My apologies for mistaking the point you were making. As far as the last part of the quote: Speaking for myself, The invasion happened around the same time I was starting classes in the RMS after returning to the republic from Annages. At the time it was happening I was attending classes daydreaming about working on Electus Matari combat ships sitting in a class full of republic fleet trainees. I don't think I have to say that in an environment like that it was looked at more favorably rather than negatively. At that time I supported it and didn't like the fact the republic didn't do anything but sit on their thumbs. We can support our republic without agreeing with everything blindly. Faith isn't blind in the Republic.I hope that clears your little... observations.... up.

Kador Ouryon wrote:
...
I'm not so much blaming anyone though, it wouldn't achieve anything nor would it point the dialogue in this thread in a positive or constructive direction.
...

To that I couldn't agree more, this little tanget is irrelevant to blood raiders in the 24ic. Not to mention throwing blame on history is rather pointless is it not? Fact is fact and semantics are well......
Kador Ouryon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2015-11-24 03:15:09 UTC
Deitra Vess wrote:
Faith isn't blind in the Republic.


Nor is it in the Empire. Everyone has a reason to hope though can't say whether you or your kin might see those reasons as valid. However we are getting off on a tangents and as you said this is not the place for another theological debate.

All I have to say regarding this matter is that it is beyond my station and more suited to older and wiser minds than my own. I trust them to do the right thing in that regard for the Empire. I must make it clear that this is not intended as meek acceptance just an understanding of my place.

What fills the soul? Something that guides a lost child back to it's parents arms. Or waves that dye the shores of the heart gold. A blessed breath to nurture life in a land of wheat. Or the path the Sef descend drawn in ash. In the wake of fire.
Neph
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#59 - 2015-11-24 03:19:31 UTC
Kador Ouryon wrote:
Deitra Vess wrote:
Faith isn't blind in the Republic.


Nor is it in the Empire. Everyone has a reason to hope though can't say whether you or your kin might see those reasons as valid. However we are getting off on a tangents and as you said this is not the place for another theological debate.

All I have to say regarding this matter is that it is beyond my station and more suited to older and wiser minds than my own. I trust them to do the right thing in that regard for the Empire. I must make it clear that this is not intended as meek acceptance just an understanding of my place.


An honorable position. To turn the conversation back to the matter at hand, do you believe that the Empire should allow professing Blooders to represent it?

~ Gariushi YC110 // Midular YC115 // Yanala YC115 ~

"Orte Jaitovalte sitasuyti ne obuetsa useuut ishu. Ketsiak ishiulyn." -Yakiya Tovil-Toba-taisoka
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#60 - 2015-11-24 03:31:08 UTC
Kador Ouryon wrote:
Deitra Vess wrote:
Faith isn't blind in the Republic.


Nor is it in the Empire. Everyone has a reason to hope though can't say whether you or your kin might see those reasons as valid. However we are getting off on a tangents and as you said this is not the place for another theological debate.

All I have to say regarding this matter is that it is beyond my station and more suited to older and wiser minds than my own. I trust them to do the right thing in that regard for the Empire. I must make it clear that this is not intended as meek acceptance just an understanding of my place.

Nothing meek about it.